I am trying to date this S&W M1917, and gather any info I can. I've read in the forum that Serial numbers for 1917 - 1919 range from 1 - 169959. If I've got that right, then this pistol would probably date from 1919. Its serial number is 168729.

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Welcome to the Forum.

You have a nice condition commercial 1917 S&W, not a version that shipped to the US Army.

Only a factory letter from the historian can tell you the exact shipping date and to whom it was shipped.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

That looks very nice. The commercial M1917s bring a premium. Per the website below, yours dates to February, 1919. This was after the war ended of course. I would take that date with a grain of salt. It could be that was when the frame was made, but when it was actually finished, assembled and shipped may have been significantly later. If you pay for a factory letter, it will tell you the shipping date.

U.S. Military Dates of Manufacture

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You're shy a few manners.

Thanks for the info Muley Gil and Jack Flash. I am not sure having a factory letter would add much, but you never know.

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Sometimes a factory letter doesn't tell a whole lot more than what hardware store it was shipped to and what stocks it had on. For newer revolvers, the letter may not add much to its value at all. The same goes for any revolver that is in poor condition, modified, shortened barrel, non-original stocks, etc. Why would you want to letter something like that?

But yours is an older revolver, still in very nice condition, and would command a hefty price if you ever want to sell it. If it were mine, I would spend the $50 and get it lettered.

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You're shy a few manners.

You make a good point Jack Flash. I think that I'll take your advice. Thanks!

I inherited this pistol with some other grips installed. See attached photos. The checkered wooden grips were in the box with the revolver.

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Welcome to this forum.

You have a beauty. I can pin it down by the stocks to at least 1920 and the absence of the "MADE IN USA" indicates before ~1923.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

You will know if the grips are the originals to the gun by looking for the gun's serial # written in pencil on the back of the right grip. You'll need magnification and bright light to read it.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I'll check that out in the morning. Thanks for the suggestion Hondo44.

Very nice indeed. You said you inherited it, so I assume you know some history on it that would add to its appeal.

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Oh well, what the hell.

My Commercial 1917 in 99% condition and in an original box,serial no. 167382, shipped October, 1922.

I bought my 1917 Commercial from a cool, old fashioned gun shop (Saddleback Valley Gun Center) in Laguna Niguel, California in 1995. Incredible single action trigger pull. SN # 181772. Shipped December, 1930. The small sights make me work hard, but it puts 6 swaged Speer 230 grain round noses into teeny, tiny little groups right at the point of aim at 25 yards.

This one, serial number 174737, shipped in May 1921 to a hardware store in New Orleans.

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As desirable as that commercial M1917 is, those yellow grips may be even more valuable! From what I can see they may be the very rare factory "Tuscoid" which appeared on a few Reg. Mags. in the 1930's.

Bob

Buff: Was George, the past owner, still there at the time? Made some good buys there too. I lived near So. Coast Plaza & would stop at that shop at least once a month, usually on the way down to the beach via Crown Valley Parkway.

Hank M.

Thanks for the info frankynohankypanky. Does your box look like mine?

Thanks Bob. I have had some private messages about those grips, so they do seem to be desirable.

Welcome to the forum, congrats on the great pistol with extras. I enjoy hearing about cool finds other people run into. A guy that I shoot with at the rifle club drug out a coffee can the other day and asked me if I was interested in anything. I opened the can and saw about a dozen boxes of old...I mean old .22 rimfire target ammunition. I pulled the boxes out and told him that there are people that collect that stuff, there was a bunch of loose stuff in the bottom and I dumped it on the bench. I saw two magazines and picked up on that looked vaguely familiar, a very distinctive curve. I looked on the bottom and read Winchester and patent date 1919. I also shoot with some guys that shoot Model 52 Winchesters ever now and then and told the guy he might be onto a small goldmine. We waited until one of the guys came in later that day and handed them to him for an appraisal. He said "Winchester model 52's started in 1920, these could be VERY early mags and one of them is stepped for .22 short, making it very rare." My buddy asked him what they might be worth, the expert said "This long rifle mag might be worth an easy fifty bucks, let me call a guy about the .22 short mag because he is always looking for stuff like that, it could be worth an easy hundred bucks." I asked my buddy where he got the stuff, he said "One of the guys I work with knew that I shot alot and just gave the stuff to me." Cool! Hes the kind of guy you can wish stuff like that would happen to and when it does, its really cool. I did offer him twenty bucks for the pair....

Yes, his last name was Hoenig or something like that. I was staying in Laguna Beach on a family vacation. Nice guy, had some cool inventory.

Not like yours which looks like an aftermarket box.

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Thanks for the photo frankynohankypanky. I think I've seen a box like that in the collection somewhere too. Now I just need to find it.

I went to order a letter from S&W this morning and found this:


Request the history of your S&W handgun

Due to the overwhelming success for Smith & Wesson history letters the current wait time is 4 to 5 months. It has always been the goal of Smith & Wesson to provide its Customers with service in a timely manner. Because of the high demand and extended lead time we are temporarily suspending the acceptance of any new requests so that we may concentrate on the current backlog.

Please contact us after December 31, 2015 for further information and updates.

This was part of my late father's extensive collection. His name was F.E. Williams III, but everyone knew him as Jack. For years he owned and ran the Museum is St. Augustine Florida.

I guess you will have to be patient. Try again after the new year.

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You're shy a few manners.

I'll try

Correct.
Top half of right grip in pencil.
If you find that number, it definitely dates the gun to the 1920s. They appear to be the original grips fitted to the frame.

Since the Tuskoid grips don't appear till the late 1930s, you will then know they were added to the gun later.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Good point Lee. I don't see any think on the Tuskoid grips, and I haven't had time to take the wooden grips off again yet.

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Dana K. Williams

As the Made in USA stamping is not present, that would date it as 1922 or earlier. As it has the S&W medallion, that would date it from sometime later than mid-1921. So it was probably assembled at some time during 1921-22. When it shipped is a different matter. I would imagine it started life an an unused military frame remaining in inventory at the end of WWI, as many did.

I would letter this gun.
It is the lowest numbered Commercial I have seen.
There is only one lower in the SWCA database-
167382 shipped Oct, 1922

The 1917 Commercials may be the most randomly shipped model in all the Hand Ejectors.
Interpolation of ship dates can be attempted, but one is really as likely to be wrong as to be right.
They are all over the place.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Hi Lee, 167382 is my gun. See my post (no. 12) above, plus the not brilliant photo posted later.

Frank.

Frank.

Is the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association Database publicly accessible Lee?

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Dana K. Williams

I've looked and can't see any penciled number on the wooden grips. Photographing didn't help. I may try a hi-res scan, but I don't think there are any markings there.

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Dana K. Williams

This was a duplicate post that I haven't figured out how to delete, yet.

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Dana K. Williams

I can't see your photo "frankynohankypanky". What am I missing?

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Dana K. Williams

This is my box for a 1917 Commercial Model. I think it is more rare than a Registered Magnum box and command a price similar to the RM price. I don't have a Commercial Model for this box.

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	45 Commercial box inside.jpg (16.0 KB, 57 views)

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Don Mundell

You never know when you might find one

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Dana K. Williams

I've had many chances to buy one. My problem is if the serial number doesn't start with a zero, I don't want it.

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Don Mundell

Picky, picky....

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Dana K. Williams

The factory letter has arrived for the pistol that this post originated with. The text is available below, and page scans are attached to the post.

Ref: 111-0124

************ Factory Letter *************

January 23, 2016

Dear Mr. Williams:

We acknowledge receipt of your recent letter asking for information on a Smith & Wesson .45
caliber revolver.

The technical name for this revolver is the .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1917. It was introduced in
1917 at the request of the United States govermnent and was designed to fire the .45 ACP
cartridge using a half moon clip, or the .45 Auto Rim cartridge.

This revolver was popular during World War I and II, and was utilized by both the United States
and Allied forces. Between 1917 and 1919, approximately 175,000 units were delivered to the
United States government for their use and distribution. These guns were stamped on the frame,
"U. S. ARMY MODEL 1917" and under the barrel, "UNITED STATES PROPERTY". The
bottom of the barrel and the rear of the cylinder were stamped "S" for Colonel Gilbert H.
Stewart, inspector. In June of 1917 the United States Government Nationalize Smith & Wesson
and made it part of the Springfield Armory. The company remained under United States
Governmental control until the end of World War I in 1919.

A contract was signed by the Brazilian government in 1937 calling for 25,000 revolvers. These
were stamped on the side plate with the Brazilian seal and 1937 contract date, and purchased
with Brazilian funds.

The popularity of this revolver continued after World War I. It was manufactured until 1948;
production consisted of 210,866 units. In October of 1947 the factory added the new style
hammer block to this model. Handguns that incorporated this feature were marked with an S
preceding the serial number. The S prefix was added at approximately serial number 210321.

The serial numbers of the guns sent to Brazil are mixed ranging from 1 to 210,000.

We have researched your Smith & Wesson .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1917, Post World War I,
Rare S serial number Variation, caliber .45 ACP or .45 Auto Rim, revolver in company records
which indicate that your handgun, with butt serial number 168729 was shipped from our factory
on October 16, 1922 and delivered to Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co., Chicago, IL. The records
indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 5.5 inch barrel, blue finish, butt swivel, and
checkered walnut non-medallion grips. The Tuskoid grips Were not available until the late 1930
so would have been added at that time.

We trust that the information fumished will be helpful and of interest.

Sincerely,
SMITH & WESSON

Roy G. Jinks
Historian

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Dana K. Williams

Now that the factory letter is here (see above), it is time to check the grips. Looks like they are the originals.

Finding the penciled serial number was made much easier using The Gimps threshold tool.

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Dana K. Williams

Something doesn't add up. The letter refers to a rare S serial number variation but the gun doesn't have an S serial #???

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I think that is just part of the generic description in the letter Jim. Although it does go on to say that they researched those serial numbers too. We could always ask Mr. Jinks.

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Dana K. Williams

The last paragraph of these letters is supposed to be specific to your gun. Roy will correct the letter, just let him know.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

You wouldn't happen to know his username would you Jim?

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Dana K. Williams

Roy G. Jinks

But he only posts on the member side: http://smith-wessonforum.com/swca-questions-roy-jinks/

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks Jim.

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Dana K. Williams

Hi Dana,

Just curious, were you able to sort out the S serial # issue with Roy? Since this thread, I've uncovered this information referring to an S but it's an S suffix, not a prefix. This may be the S that Roy was confused about your gun having.

# 15537 S a Commercial Model is clearly one of the WW I produced frames in the 1 to ~175,000 WW I 1917 military serial number range. WW I 1917 revolver numbered frames were not all completed and only 163,476 completed revolvers (the estimated last military unit made being #169959), and 7300 numbered but incomplete frames were actually shipped to the Army or sold commercially until 1/5/1921.

The large S stamped following the serial #s in various locations indicates it’s below ~ serial #42,000 which were inspected under the auspices of Colonel Gilbert H. Stewart whose initials would be on the upper left side rear of the frame had it been assembled and sold under the military contract.

It also indicates the gun was shipped prior to WW II. After WW II a larger S prefix to the serial # on the butt was stamped to indicate N frames that had the new post war sliding bar hammer block safety.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hi Jim,

Thanks for posting the additional information.

As you pointed out, my S&W M1917 didn't have an S serial #. So I didn't pursue the issue aggressively. I sold the revolver on via Gun Broker shortly after receiving the letter from Roy G. Jinks.

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Dana K. Williams