Picked up a S&W 38 w/ 4" barrel in nickel. Seems tight and looks pretty good. Looks like 2 serial numbers however.

With cylinder open the #'s read 85542 in two different spots.
The 2 may be spaced slightly to the right of the other numbers.
There is a very large "R" above these numbers, i.e.; twice the size.

Under the barrel, on the back of the cylinder, and on the butt, is stamped S 996500.

Paid $250 OTD. Any help in age greatly appreciated. Dealer says
it's a model 10-5 but I see nothing to indicate that.

Thanks for any help.
Bill S. (Will try to post pic's)

Attached Images

image.jpg (63.9 KB, 108 views)

You have a .38 Military & Police revolver from 1947-'48. The official SN is on the bottom of the grip frame - see this post for ID information.

To IDENTIFY your Gun >

After 1957 a very similar gun was named the model 10, but this one is from before model designations. It is one of about 10,000 guns with the S prefix and the then-new "short action", with a smaller arc to the hammer throw. Nickel guns are also unusual from this era; look for the letter N on the side of the grip frame and rear cylinder face showing it was factory original. Very nice find, enjoy!

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Ooooooo . .. . Aaaaaaa . . . I like that one! Very nice! I'm a "shooter" and not a "collector" . . . and I would have snapped that up in a heartbeat! Congrats on your find!

Can't find an "N" on it anywhere. Does that confirm it was not original nickel?

Trigger and hammer aren't nickeled; when it comes to the question whether the nickel is original, that's always a good sign .

With that serial number, your gun almost certainly shipped in early 1948. And if it is in good shape mechanically, $250 was a good deal no matter what.

Sorry, do you mean it's a good sign that the nickel is not original?
Guess I'm not even on the correct forum now that it's that old.
Thank you kindly,
Bill

Even if you don't see any N stamps, other details (like the fit of the sideplate and sharp metal edges on the frame) suggest it is an original nickel gun. A factory letter would tell you for certain, but requests for this are on hold until at least after the New Year.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

No, I meant that re-nickeled guns usually can be recognized by having the hammer and trigger also nickeled (for some reason most renickelers like to do a "thorough" job), so it could be a good sign that these two parts are not. Absent the N, though, it is probably an old re-finish, but by someone smart enough to leave trigger and hammer alone. Also, as Murphydog said, short-action S-prefix guns that are original nickel appear to be rare. But as I said, I certainly do not think you got ripped off at that price even if the nickel isn't original.

Does the hammer look newer than the serial number suggests?

No. Reportedly, at serial number S 990184 the new short action hammer which this gun clearly has was introduced in the S-prefix series, so S 996500 fits perfectly within the range.

Yes, the "speed hammer" is correct for the SN. JP@AK is the local post-war M & P expert and should be along shortly with more comments.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Did you take off the grip panels and look at the left side of the grip frame for a N?
While you have them off look at the inside of the right grip panel and you should see the serial number stamped into the wood.

Very nice acquisition and a bargain to boot.

You may find the following of interest:

FRAME STAMPINGS - SERIAL #s/REFINISH/REWORK/OTHER:
(Note: Almost any statements about S&Ws are presumed to be trends, and should not be taken as rules.)

Serial # Locations & B or N stamps:
Always use optical magnification including a flashlight when looking at or for serial numbers to observe the information accurately.

Pre war fixed sighted guns have serial #s in 6* locations, target** models as many as 9*. Triple Locks have 7 including the mid lock cam plate, making it 10 locations on Target models.

*Post War continued the 6 and 9 (early Transitional target models with pre war sights only) s/n locations on fixed sight/target models with pre war sights until 1956-57, but dropped the 3 target sight locations post war on the new Micro-click sighted models, which were no longer specifically fitted to the top strap.

**Target models will have the serial number on the front sight, under rear sight, and the rear sight blade although sometimes not, and sometimes #'d with assembly (factory work) # instead of serial #. If the s/n is more than 4 digits, the front and rear sight blades can have a partial s/n. All three parts must be removed to observe the #s. Non-numbered front and rear sight blades have typically been replaced, in most observations.
We owe the Russians a vote of thanks; having been the 1st to require multi-serial # locations on their S&W #3 contract revolvers.

Here are the 6 (or 7 on Triple Locks) fixed sight frame serial # locations pre war and locations remaining after WW II until 1957 to look for (not including pre war target sight stamped serial #s):

Here are the 6 fixed sight frame serial # locations for your model.
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it’s there!
Gun butt* - or forestrap* on I frames with grips that cover the butt
Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud
Yoke - on rear face visible thru a chamber with a flashlight
Extractor star - backside
Cylinder - rear face
Right stock only** - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material.
Mid-lock cam plate – “.44 HE 1st Model - Triple Locks” only, in any caliber (up to all 5 digits).

*NOTE: The one TRUE place you can be sure of reading the original serial number for all Hand Ejectors of any vintage, (which includes any letter prefixes after WW II,) is the BUTT of the gun, (or Front grip strap on non-round butt .22/32 Kit guns and Targets and .32 & .38 S&W Regulation Police pre Model of 1953 I frames). The number on the butt may be drilled thru by the factory for installation of a lanyard swivel but is re-stamped on the grip frame, under the left stock. Factory installed swivels are always 1/10” forward of center. Generally the Pre war serial # on the butt reads with barrel to the right including I frame serial numbers on the forestrap. After WW II it reads with barrel to the left except for serial numbers on the forestrap.

** Stamped since 1857, stock #s, always right side only, changed to penciled #s c. 1900 and back to stamped #s in 1929. Scratched, penciled or stamped on hard rubber and premium stocks; numbering discontinued ~ late 1970s.

Decreasing Serial # locations began May 1, 1957 when S&W eliminated the Soft Fitting Operation. They stopped routinely stamping the serial number on the barrel, cylinder & yoke arm over a transition period. Serial # locations dropped from 6 locations to only 3; butt, back of right stock (until mid '70s), and extractor star (until c. 1980). So guns in process or in inventory as of 5/1/57 can still have more than 3 and up to 6 locations and guns shipped after this time will have the former number locations because assembly was done in advance and inventory using the old process had to be used up.

Eventually down to only 3 serial # locations left by c. late 1957 which are:
Gun butt
Extractor star - backside until ~ 1980 with the new extractor star shape.
Right stock – backside until ~ 1979 when stocks were no longer hand fitted.

Once laser engraved serial numbers were introduced, the last two locations continue on the bottom of the butt and in the yoke cut. But there are exceptions, like below the cylinder, left side of frame below the cyl window and may or may not be on the butt.

Assembly (factory work) #s: Other multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ on frame opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period. The assembly # in the yoke cut of the frame was relocated to the left side of grip frame after model #s were assigned and the serial # was added in the ‘yoke cut’ where the assembly #, moved to the grip frame, used to be. You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3 locations that always match on guns that are original, and that’s the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.
*EXCEPTION: see rear target sight blade numbering under serial # locations above.

Serial number and assembly # locations have more changes soon after 1957 and get more confusing. When Model Number stamping began not long after being ordered June 12, 1957, the serial number was not yet stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ on the frame side of the yoke hinge until late 1959 and early 1960. Then the serial # was only stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. But soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the 'yoke cut' on all models, except on some smaller guns at first where it just didn't fit well. But when serial #s were stamped on the frame in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame assembly # from the 'yoke cut' was moved to the left side of the grip frame. The 3 assembly # locations, on yoke, left side of grip frame and backside of side plate remain to this day.

“The reason for the triple alpha-numeric serial number system is that S&W ran out of serial numbers that they had been using up to the 1980 and need a serial number series that had enough number possibilities to keep them going for many years. The first guns in the triple alpha four numeric series was the L frame revolvers starting AAA0001 in 1980. The rest of the models were slow phased in from 1980 to approximate 1983. When it came time to assign the new series to the auto-loading handguns they were started at TAA0001. After this the company jumped around in the new series depending if there was a demand for a special number. I actually have three guns serial numbered RGJ0001 - 0003 and they are all different models. ATF objected to the company assigning special numbers and so now they are in a little better order. I hope that this answers your question.” Roy

NOTE: 'B' or 'N' stamp: ahead of pre war serial #s on the barrel flat (or in shroud), rear face of yoke, on rear face of cyl by itself, behind the extractor star, and by itself on right side grip frame on commercial guns (only on left side grip frame on post war models) indicates an original Blue finish or for an original Nickel finish based upon the corresponding letter. The occasional absence of either the 'B' or 'N' can indicate that it left the factory nickeled. Also there was a larger B behind the barrel serial # for the Bright blue optional finish in the post war era - early ‘50s when satin blue was standard. “I've seen nickel Triple Locks with N stamps. I've seen them without it, too. Pre-war guns MAY have an N, or they may simply lack B's.” Regards, Lee Jarrett
The post war and the 1950s period, was one of much evolution. There was the usual transition when finish code letter stamps were dropped and frame code letter s/n prefixes began, when there were neither letter stamps on major parts (except the butt).

Caliber code single digit number stamped on grip frame: N frames. The normal side for the cal. code # is the left side.
357 Mag no number code observed
38 special will have an 8
44 special has a 4
44 Mag has a 0
45 ACP has a 5
45 colt should have a number 7 on either side of the grip frame (convertibles stamped E5 & E7)

Misc. single digit letter or number: stamps in yoke and cylinder and/or grip frame either side are fitter stamps and inspector stamps in general. An L on front face of cylinder of post 1960 models indicates left hand threaded extractor rod.

Star by the serial #: On the bottom of the butt or left side of grip frame indicates a factory rework; began~ 1910, declined in the early 1960s along with date stamps.
Deviations: Roy Jinks once said that the star wasn't always used (earliest known 1926 and star was on several parts). A nickel .32 RP that was built pre-war went back post war and got a new barrel, cylinder and re-finish; It is not marked by the SN, but does have stars on the barrel, cylinder and yoke.
A New Model Number 3 target that was completely redone by the factory in June of 1956 doesn't have a star. A .32-20 re-finished in the early 1970's did get a star stamp. Also, the star was not always put on the butt by the serial number. If you didn't want the star stamp on the butt, the factory would stamp it on the grip frame under the grips, which fits with a few guns we've seen with the star on the grip frame.

Refinish/Rework Dates: after 1910 for a return to the factory are 3 or 4 digits depending on the actual date (sometimes 5 or 6) placed on left side of grip frame on the 'toe' stamped vertically or horizontally, and will not match any other stamped #s on the gun. Ex: 3.48 for March 1948, 10.2.57 for Oct 2, 1957, etc.
Sometimes letters in a rectangle or diamond, B (blue), N (nickel), or S (standard/blue) with an R (for refinish), on 'heel' of left side of grip frame. There might also be marks in diamonds like <S> (silver), <G> (gold), or a P (plated) with a circle. In the 1960s period, an S<> on grip frame and under barrel with a rework date meant refinish, standard (blue). Which stamping was used depended on the time frame and service technician working on the gun.
Refinish and date stamp usage is generally accepted to have declined in the early 1960s and was eventually eliminated altogether not too long after. Reportedly none have been observed since 1983.


Photo thx to Colby Bruce.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim,
You may need to revisit this one sentence for post 2000 and maybe 1990s "hand ejectors."
They generally have the s/n in two places. Some had the most conspicuous s/n on the side of the frame below the cylinder window and nothing on the bottom of the butt.

Also the bottom of the top strap was used for one of the two s/n locations on one of my 1990s stainless S&Ws.

Oh yes, thx I missed that when I made my copies and pastes, Thx!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Brs1965
S996500 most likely shipped in June, 1948. By this serial range, nearly all of them had the high-speed hammer although I do show one in the S9967xx range which did get the old long throw action. It is the only one I've found so far with a serial number this high having the long action (except a few special order guns chambered for the .32 Long).
I do not have any others identified anywhere near this range that were factory nickel finished, but that doesn't mean this one wasn't. The sideplate fit is very good and the hammer and trigger lack plating. If the factory didn't do it, then someone did a great job on it.
I don't think there would be an N on the cylinder or the barrel flat. If there was one at all, it would probably be on the side of the grip frame under the stocks. Look for it there, but its absence does not necessarily indicate it wasn't given a nickel finish by the factory.
From the angle of your one picture, I'm wondering if the stocks are correct. They seem to have too much angle on the shoulder, but that could be a trick of the picture. It would be nice to know what serial number is stamped on the inside of the right panel. When you have them off, you could take a good clear photo of the shoulder also. Perhaps they are the sharp shoulder type.

Your dealer is very mistaken. This revolver was made about 14 years before the Model 10-5 was introduced. Also, a 10-5 would have a very different front sight and left hand threads on the extractor rod. This one has right hand threads.

In any case, you got the gun for a good price. Enjoy it!

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

The pawn shop owner called and said the assistant that I delt with yesterday had made a mistake and sold me the wrong gun! He explained the gun I have had not been registered in his inventory yet and someone put the model10 hang tag info and price on my gun. I've delt with this shop for some time and felt I had to take it back. My receipt was for the wrong serial number and the whole thing was a major screw up on the part of the assistant. Owner said he paid more than what I bought it for.

Bottom line I returned the gun on the owners promise to give me first refusal after he processes it in and puts a price on it. He's supposed to call me probably tomorrow.

I know I could have held my ground and said heck no, I'm not bringing it back, but that's not me.

What price would still be a good deal for me? Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thank you gentlemen for your kind help again!!
Bill S.

A bit odd. Frankly, it's extremely unlikely that a pawnshop would have paid out anywhere near $250 for that gun. Now the one picture you posted is not enough to make a definite determination, but the posts from the knowledgable people here should have given you an idea of what to look for. If you could establish with sufficient certainty that the nickel finish is original and the stocks match by serial number, $50 or even $100 more would not be unreasonable.