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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 12-14-2015, 07:09 PM
Elmer_Phud Elmer_Phud is offline
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I am interested in purchasing a 1905 M&P S&W 38 Spl. from a local pawn shop and could use some help from the experts.
  1. Serial No.: 848583

What year was the rev. manufactured?
What model variant (1st - 4th)?
Missing 1 of 5 screws on RT Side of frame (near hammer), how hard is it to find a replacement?
Does a lanyard ring add or remove from value?
What is this worth in todays $'s and in this condition?

Link to some pictures to assist in answering my questions:
https://goo.gl/photos/f7TA1HUVmqd7GK1e9






Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Last edited by Elmer_Phud; 12-14-2015 at 09:17 PM. Reason: difficulty getting link to pics to work
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Old 12-14-2015, 07:58 PM
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Welcome to the Forum.

I don't have access to my book right now, but that revolver would be from the late '30s-early '40s. S&W was building revolvers for the British then and many M&P revolvers were fitted with lanyard loops.

The grips are post WW II. My guesstimate would be $400-450, depending on your location.
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Last edited by Muley Gil; 12-14-2015 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:59 PM
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Hold the phone! The serial number, clearly shown in the pictures, is 848583. It has a 5" barrel and is chambered for the .38 Special. It has a lanyard ring as noted. I believe it would date to about 1941. The stocks, as noted previously, are later than the gun. This style first appeared around 1953.
I believe you should be able to find an appropriate sideplate screw for the top position. I'm not sure, but the pitch might have changed later, so you need to get one for the correct time period. Try Numrich.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:02 PM
Elmer_Phud Elmer_Phud is offline
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Thanks Gil for you quick response.

I don't mind the lanyard, but if it detracts from value, that would effect my purchase price.

Wow, great input on the stocks NOT being correct to the revolver, that will definitely impact my offer.

I will try Numrich for the missing screw.

Any additional input from anyone would be appreciated. T/Y!!

Last edited by Elmer_Phud; 12-14-2015 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer_Phud View Post
Are the stocks OE with the revolver or have they been replaced?
See my post (#3).

Quote:
I don't mind the lanyard, but if it detracts from value, that would effect my purchase price.
I suspect the lanyard swivel is original.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:12 PM
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Stocks have been replaced the lanyard neither adds to or detracts from value as it is original
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:12 PM
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The missing screw is a 4-48 thread. The others are 5-44. I have bags of old screws. What do they want for the gun?
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer_Phud View Post
I don't mind the lanyard, but if it detracts from value, that would effect my purchase price....
Since you asked, it would be a Model 1905, Fourth change, but you should dump that whole label. Nobody is using it on guns that late; it is simply an M&P. Since your specimen has a lanyard loop, some collectors would call a gun of that serial number a "pre-Victory", a label used for M&P's with essential Victory features like the swivel produced at the beginning of WW II for official customers before the full-blown Victory model with V-prefix and dull finish was introduced.

As for the swivel and "value", there are no objective rules. It would make the gun more desirable to me, since it's more likely to be a service gun, but other collectors may have different preferences.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmborkovic View Post
The missing screw is a 4-48 thread. The others are 5-44
Thanks, gmborkovic. I thought this was the case, but I could not remember for certain. Was the change made after the war? Do you know when, precisely?
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:41 PM
Elmer_Phud Elmer_Phud is offline
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Wow, this is the information I was hoping to gather from the board. T/Y!!

Answers to your question: Pawn Shop is asking ~$500, pretty high, IMHO

One other mentionable note: the blackstrap has TVA stamped or engraved
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:42 PM
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So you saved the best information for last. My database shows several 6" & 5" in that general range with lanyard rings, so that would seem to indicate a contract and the markings on the backstrap would seem to support that assumption. The gun described most likely shipped in Nov of 1941. It's a great find and you should have no problem finding that missing screw. Congratulations!
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer_Phud View Post
Answers to your question: Pawn Shop is asking ~$500, pretty high, IMHO

One other mentionable note: the blackstrap has TVA stamped or engraved
That, if authentic, would probably stand for Tennessee Valley Authority. The TVA did receive Smith & Wesson revolvers for guard purposes, so if the stamping can be verified (comparison of script style, location etc. with known specimen), that could enhance the attractiveness to the right collector, and the $500 might not be outlandish.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:48 PM
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That is indeed an M&P, and likely shipped around October 1941. The original grips are missing, and it can be a little difficult and expensive to locate a nice-condition and period-correct pair - if that makes any difference. You can look on eBay for a screw, or Numrich normally has them under the parts list for a M1917 S&W. Including shipping, you'd probably be into a screw for about $10 or so. Civilian .38 S&W Special M&Ps from that period are a little unususual, as S&W was up to their ears in producing military revolvers at that date, and not very many were being made for the civilian market. So it does have a little scarcity premium. $500 would not be outlandish if it had original stocks and wasn't missing the bug screw (assuming no other problems). If you really want it, offer $400, and go to maybe $425 and stop. Might want to try to get them to eat the sales tax or maybe throw in a box of ammo also.
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:43 AM
Elmer_Phud Elmer_Phud is offline
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Great Info, so I'm curious about these stocks and whether they are OE. So I plucked another M&P I own, which has a 6 inch bbl. Serial No. 54143, however it has the "C" to it, not sure what that indicates.

Here are two pictures, sorry about the lighting and that is using a flashlight for enhancement, but still poor.
M&P-1

M&P-2


Now I looked on GUNBROKER and saw another that looked pretty darn close to the Pawn Shop M&P and it appears to have the same grips, thoughts? Obviously if I had access to the M&P I could take the stocks off and compare the serial numbers, but I don't. The good thing is I'm learning.


Last edited by handejector; 12-15-2015 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:05 AM
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The gun in the pictures you posted also has the wrong stocks. It's a late 1940s C-prefix M&P with 1920s-style non-medallion stocks. The external appearance of the M&P changed very little over several decades except for details that are only obvious to collectors, so you can't really go by whether the gun looks similar. The style of stocks changed at specific times. When Jack says the style on the one you posted about initially first appeared around 1953, you can trust that.

PS: The gun in that gunbroker link is yet another different animal, a refinished former British Service Revolver from about the same time, but with non-original post-war stocks, with a ridiculous price.

By the way, you're not supposed to link to active auctions.

Last edited by Absalom; 12-15-2015 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:05 AM
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Elmer
The stocks that came with this gun were prewar style stocks. They could have been the standard service type that came no higher on the frame than the stock circle. They also could have been prewar Magnas. But in either case, they did not look like those that are on your gun. Those you have are postwar Magna stocks. They have the smaller checkered area - and that did not appear until 1946. Moreover, yours have the "soft" or tapered shoulder - a style that was used no earlier than 1952 and did not ship consistently until 1953. The stocks used from 1946 until 1952 had a much sharper shoulder than what you see on yours.
Here is a picture, showing two M&Ps from the late 1940s. The upper gun has the prewar style Magna stocks and the bottom one has the earliest version of the postwar Magna type. If you study these closely, you will see for yourself that they do not match what you have. Period.
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Last edited by JP@AK; 12-15-2015 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer_Phud View Post
Serial No. 54143, however it has the "C" to it, not sure what that indicates.
The C prefix came into use in March, 1948, seven years after your gun was made. C prefix M&P revolvers would have later stocks than those that left the factory with your revolver in 1941. C54143 would have shipped with Magna stocks having the postwar checkering pattern and the sharp shoulder, unlike those in your picture, which have the same checkering pattern but the softer (post-1952) shoulder.
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:18 AM
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Elmer
I just looked at the two photos you included in your Post #14. Assuming both pictures are of the same revolver, those stocks are not original to that gun, either! They have no medallion and the stock circle is convex. Those date from the 1920s. They are quite nice but they had been out of production for almost 20 years by the time your C prefix postwar M&P was put together.
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:21 AM
Elmer_Phud Elmer_Phud is offline
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Okay, the above pictures definitely help distinguish between the two periods (T/Y Jack). I bought the 6 inch in Oklahoma, just south of Tulsa about 5 years ago. I still haven't taken it out to shoot; I know pretty sad. I gave a pristine 6" MDL 10-4 to my nephew for his "1st" and now I'm looking to try to replace it, thus the quest.

I appreciate all the information.
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Old 12-15-2015, 04:10 PM
Elmer_Phud Elmer_Phud is offline
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I received a picture of the backstrap, which shows the TVA followed by a inventory number. The marking was obviously done after it departed S&W. IMO, due to the poor quality of the marking, it would detract from overall value in comparison with a non altered revolver.

When I pointed out the M&P was missing a screw and the stocks were NOT original equipment (T/Y board), the Pawn Shop quickly dropped price by 40% ($200).

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Old 12-15-2015, 06:10 PM
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Unfortunately, I don't remember who it was, but one of the regular more senior members here mentioned not too long ago that he had owned several TVA owned guns. If someone with that kind of experience could verify that the TVA used that rather sloppy style of marking, I would consider the new price quite attractive, despite screw and stocks.
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