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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 12-17-2015, 12:19 AM
j_compton j_compton is offline
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Default Hi.. new here. Need help identifying an early model revolver

I was just given a revolver that an older friend has owned for many years.
Ive read several threads, but couldnt find an exact match.
Hoping the smart people hear know more than I could find.
Details:
22lr
Hand ejector
Sn is on inside of grip.
5 screw
Sn # 221xxx (no letter identifier)
Seems to have pre-war rear sights
No "made in usa" markings

I was told its likely an early model K22. Bjt of what year no one knows.

Heres a few pictures:






Any and all help would be appreciated

Thanks in advance!
Jeremy
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:39 AM
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Default Good evening

Very nice piece. I am not a collector and no expert, they will be along very shortly. With the mushroom ejector rod head and double step in the barrel and the last patent date Sept 09, it is probably from before 1920. And a target model. Very nice, congrats!
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Last edited by snuffy51; 12-18-2015 at 01:48 AM. Reason: Glowe corrected me pat. date, old eyes said 5. thanx
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Old 12-17-2015, 01:22 AM
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A friend GAVE that to you? You better go buy that friend something really NICE for Christmas. I'm no expert but unless I'm seriously mistaken one that old in that condition is worth somewhere in the high 3 low 4 figures.

But more knowledgeable folks will be along to give you a better idea here shortly I'm sure.
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Old 12-17-2015, 05:15 AM
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Welcome to the forum.

You have an extremely nice ".22/32 Heavy Frame Target" built on an I frame and predating the K22 introduction by ~15 years.

Snuffy is right about being pre 1920s and BC38 has the value about right.
The serial # indicates it shipped the first half of 1915. It's an early one with the Paine front sight and pre 1920-21 genuine gold plated stock medallions. Where and when exactly it shipped can only be determine with a $50 historical letter from S&W.

Now for some questions: Is the date penciled on the back of the right grip a match to the gun's serial # on the grip frame forestrap? Is there a # stamped on the bottom of the left side stock?

History on this model:

Phil Bekeart, a San Francisco gun dealer, is credited with the concept of a larger (than the existing 7 shot .22 Long ‘M’ frame) .22 LR target revolver built on the I frame 1st called the Model 1911 Bekeart Model, 22/32 HFT. He agreed to order 1000 of the new model if S&W would produce it.

When Smith added this model to regular production c.1915 it was given the model name of ".22/32 Heavy Frame Target", because relative to the tiny M frame Ladysmith, the only other Smith .22 produced at the time, it was a heavier frame. Changed to “22/32 Target” in ~ 1930 when the K22, a heavier, K frame .22 was introduced.


The original Bekeart models are highly sought after, and categorized in four levels of collectibility.

Unfortunately, many under informed sellers tend to lump all .22/32 HFTs with the true 'Bekeart’ Models, but they do not all share the same rarity/collectability, and each of the four recognized Bekeart classes vary substantially in value even in like condition.

The four basic classifications of Bekeart Models in order of their collectability and value are summarized below from the SCS&W, 3rd edition and other sources:

In April 25, 1911 an order for the 1st production run of 1050 serial #s, of the Model 1911 Bekeart models began in the serial range of # 138226 thru # 139275, completed on July 10, 1911. Only 1044 revolvers were actually completed/shipped and their grips were #’d 1 - 1044. The 1st 3000 guns were numbered 1 to 3000 on the butt of the left stock in the order that they were produced.

1st classification, the "True" Bekearts, the “Model 1911 22/32 Bekeart HFTs” are the 294 (lately revised from 292 by Roy Jinks) from that original production run on the known serial number list within the above serial range that were actually shipped to Bekeart.

2nd class of Bekearts are the remainder of the guns in that 1044 production run and serial range that went to other dealers.

3rd class of Bekearts is the remainder with grip numbers from #1045 to #3000, shipped to Bekeart or not, after which grip #s were discontinued, but there is no official factory 'list' of serial numbers for this class, albeit there are accumulated partial lists from lettered guns; the grip number and with grip serial number matching the gun, being sufficient to identify them along with a factory letter.

4th and last class, although least valuable or desirable, is any “22/32 Heavy Frame Target” from after the 1st production run that 'letters' as being shipped to Bekeart Sporting goods in S.F., since there is no official serial number list for this class.
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:04 AM
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Thanks guy. Especially you Hondo. Great info.
What I understand is I am the 3rd owner of the pistol.
My friend believes less than 100 rounds have been fired through the gun.
I will pull the gun out again and check for the addional info asked for in an hour or so (gotta get the kids off to school)

On other thing. Its in a leather holster, which my friend rhoight might be original. Would this pistol ship with a holster? I can take pictures of that too.
Thanks

Jeremy
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:52 AM
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Hello Jeremy,
Welcome to the Forum!
Nice to see another Canuck on the Forum. You got a nice .22/.32 HFT there! Please don't store it in a holster. The leather traps moisture which isn't a good thing for the finish.
Grab yourself a large double double timmies and park yourself in front of the screen. Lot's of information on these revolvers here. Use the search tab at the top right of the forum. Here is one to start you off. Enjoy!

Bekeart models and .22/32 HFT's

Last edited by 824tsv; 12-17-2015 at 10:05 AM. Reason: Added link to thread
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Old 12-17-2015, 10:18 AM
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So I took a look.
I dont see any numbers penciled inside the grips.
I noticed there is also a stamp of the SN on the cylinder.
And there is a stamp that says 5914 on the left side frame when i swing the cylinder out. Again.. Some pictures. The one is upside down. Sorry.

Also include is a picture of the leather holster. Would this be from the same time period?







Thanks for all the help.
And sorry for any spelling issues.. Im posti g from my phone and dont wear my glasses like I should.

Jeremy
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Old 12-17-2015, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snuffy51 View Post
. . . With the mushroom ejector rod head and double step in the barrel and the last patent date Sept 05, it is probably from before 1920 . . .
The patent date is actually September 14, 1909. Patent US933797 - Self-cocking revolver. If you can decode this description, you must be a patent attorney.

This invention relates to firearms and particularly to an improvement in revolvers, the object of the invention being to provide a construction in self-cocking. Revolvers whereby when the hammer is cocked by the movement of the trigger the backward throw of the hammer will be through a longer are than in revolvers as generally constructed at present; and, furthermore, as the hammer nears the end of its backward movement, and as the main spring tension or resistance increases, the point of engagement between the trigger and hammer is shifted whereby during the final backward movement of the latter, the leverage of the trigger against the hammer is shortened to the end that at the time when the main spring resistance is the greatest, the power required to compress said spring will, by the change of leverage above referred to, be lessened: Furthermore, the easy actuation of the hammer during its final movement is enhanced because when the shifting of the point of engagement between the trigger and the cooking lever takes place, the last point of engagement is substantially in a straight line drawn between the pivots of the hammer and trigger.

Jeremy, just to clarify a good way to narrow down the age of this model and other vintage S&Ws is to look at certain features of the gun. The mushroom style ejector rod knob was used on several models from around 1902 to 1927. The stocks had a few different designs in the early HE years. Yours has a gold wash medallion, which was available roughly from 1910 to 1920. Before 1910, the stocks had a plain concave top and from 1920 to 1930, the stocks had a plain convex top. Starting around 1930, the company added a silver medallion. Lastly, you will often find a MADE IN USA stamp on the right side of the frame, which was added in 1922.

This will help you determine vintage if you decide to pursue adding more early S&Ws to your collection. After you shoot that one, I have a feeling that you will be doing just that.
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Old 12-17-2015, 10:32 AM
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Welcome to the FORUM! A Smith .22 tends to be on many peoples want list. The closest I came to having 1 was in the mid-late 70's. I had my name on the (then) waiting list. I think it was around 1.5 year when I was called. I needed money at the time, and turned it down. Bob
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Old 12-17-2015, 10:44 AM
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Jeez... I knew this was the right place to come.
I wanted to get a historical document from S&W.. But right now they have that service on hold.

Well.. Since no USA stamp seems its for sure from before 1922. Kinda cool. Im new to the game, so its really cool to have an old pistol right off the hop.

The guy also gave me a herbert schmidt 22 mag., a spanish .410 shotty, a 30-06 and an old mossberg 22 bolt action.

I think this s&w pistol is my favorite though.

Anybody have anymore info for me or can direct me to some reading material? Its really exciting to learn this stuff.

Thanks again
Jeremy
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:00 AM
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Jeremy, a few answers here. The number that you found inside the yoke is an assembly number. When the factory finished fitting the cylinder assembly fit to the frame, a random number was assigned so that after the final finish was applied the parts could be put together. The serial number was stamped in several locations, but the most important to match is the number on the barrel flat above the ejector rod, the cylinder, the butt, and inside the right stock. It was not unusual for target stocks to be unnumbered, since sometimes it is because the stocks were bought after-market. Another reason would be that the stocks may have been added to fill an order at the factory after the gun was complete and in inventory.

The "bible" for S&W collectors is a book by Neal & Jinks, titled Smith & Wesson, 1857-1945.
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:12 AM
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Thanks.
I did read something in the forum beginners page about that assembly number.
Well. The 2 serials i can find match
So thats good.

I think i will see if i can get one of those books. Seing as now that i have one s&w revolver.. I feel like I'd like 10 more.

Thanks!

Jeremy
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:38 AM
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"Anybody have anymore info for me or can direct me to some reading material? Its really exciting to learn this stuff."

See my post #6 above ^
Some reading to start you off.....
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 824tsv View Post
"Anybody have anymore info for me or can direct me to some reading material? Its really exciting to learn this stuff."

See my post #6 above ^
Some reading to start you off.....
Well shoot eh! I missed that link. Thanks
Ill be grabbin the timmies in a few and be parking myself for some reading.

Thanks!

Btw... Whats the best way to store this old revolver, other than the leather holster its been in for longer than I've been alive?

Jeremy
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Old 12-17-2015, 01:07 PM
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Ok.
One last picture of the gun.
I found the SN under the push rod.
It has a B on there before the serial.. Does this mean anything important? Its the only spot the B appears.

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Old 12-17-2015, 01:21 PM
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B = Blue

N= Nickel

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Old 12-17-2015, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnails View Post
B = Blue

N= Nickle
. . . or Nickel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_compton View Post
. . .
Btw... Whats the best way to store this old revolver, other than the leather holster its been in for longer than I've been alive . . .
There are many experts that will tell you to never store a gun in a leather holster and I always heed their warnings, BUT I, as you, have seen many guns kept for years in holsters that show no evidence of damage. I do not need to store my guns in leather, so I don't . . . just in case. I would clean the revolver and put a high quality oil on all metal parts. Lots of collectors use wax, and I have done both without any differences showing up over a long time in storage. Oil is much easier to apply so I usually just do that, plus I use almost all my revolvers and re-waxing can get to be a pain.
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Old 12-17-2015, 02:23 PM
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I think that most commonly during the period of this revolver's origin, there would be a B on the barrel flat for a gun that was given the factory blue finish. If it was nickel, there would be no letter. The absence of the B on the barrel flat would indicate a factory nickel finish.

Having said that, were any of the .22/32 Heavy Frame Target revolvers given a factory nickel finish? I don't believe I've ever seen one or even heard of one. But this isn't my area of collecting activity.
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Old 12-17-2015, 02:55 PM
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Default Pictures got me excited.

Forgot to say welcome to the forum and what a great place it is to hang out last night. Never know what will turn up. I just joined in September for the same reason you did, and it didn't take long to find out all about my old K-frame M&P and a lot more. Visit often and and it will become a habit. Have a good day and always be safe.
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Old 12-17-2015, 04:08 PM
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Welcome to the forum.

As you may see from my avatar, the .22/32 HFT is or has become my collection focus. Much fine information above from my very learned colleagues so I will not repeat. If I am reading the serial number correct in your photo (221549) then your gun most likely shipped late 1914 to mid 1915. I only have 4 guns with serial numbers beginning with 221 in my database and interestingly enough, one of them is 221,548. That gun shipped on 5/10/1915 to a hardware store in Lacrosse, WI.

The first 3,000 guns produced had a number imprinted into the left stock bottom that identified the order in which the gun was assembled. There is no correlation to serial numbers as S&W did not ship guns in serial number sequence.

The highest stock sequence number that I have encountered is 2582 and is on gun 208,260 shipped 3/19/1914. The highest serial number with a stock sequence number is 208,410 shipped 2-27-1914 and bears stock number 2431.

So as you can see, absolutely no correlation between serial numbers, shipping dates and stock numbers. These numbers are not to be confused with the guns serial number found on the front strap and barrel flat and penciled on the inside of the right stock.

Several years later, S&W switched from the 2 screw gold medallion stocks to a regulation police style. This continued until the mid 1920's when they went back to the 2 screw target stocks without medallions. Somewhere around 1930, silver medallions were added. The two screw target stocks were always available from the factory even during the regulation police style years so it is possible to find a gun shipped during those years where the two screw extension style stocks had been originally shipped. Only a factory letter can confirm this fact assuming that it was recorded in the records.

Hope that helps.
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Old 12-17-2015, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR III;
If I am reading the serial number correct in your photo (221549) then your gun most likely shipped late 1914 to mid 1915. I only have 4 guns with serial numbers beginning with 221 in my database and interestingly enough, one of them is 221,548. That gun shipped on 5/10/1915 to a hardware store in Lacrosse, WI.
You read that correct... Interesting to find someone whos number is right next to mine.... Very cool.
And thanks for the addional info!

Jeremy

Last edited by j_compton; 12-17-2015 at 10:11 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-17-2015, 10:20 PM
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Welcome aboard.
That is a beauty!

One more tidbit-
The ejector rod knob is gray because it is a separate piece in that era screwed onto the rod. The gray color is the result of it being case hardened, not blued. The rood and knob would become one piece just 2 or 3 years after your gun was made.

The holster is likely contemporary to the gun, but is not likely to have shipped from S&W.

Any chance of locating the box in that short chain of ownership?

If it is as clean as I think it might be, I think it could fetch more than $2000.
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_compton View Post
You read that correct... Interesting to find someone whos number is right next to mine.... Very cool.
And thanks for the addional info!

Jeremy
Jeremy,

Another good and broad source of information and interesting reading on S&Ws firearms is The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson. However, a new updated fourth edition will be on the market soon, so you may want to wait for it.

In the meantime, if you click on the 'Expert Commentary' in the banner above, you will find very interesting information on specific models and subjects of your choice, written by the well whiskered members of this forum, that won't be found anywhere else.

Because of your interest, below is a summary of basic information all in one place, for all Hand Ejector models.

FRAME STAMPINGS - SERIAL #s/REFINISH/REWORK/OTHER: (Note: Almost any statements about S&Ws are presumed to be trends, and should not be taken as rules.)

Serial # Locations & B or N stamps:
Always use optical magnification including a flashlight when looking at or for serial numbers to observe the information accurately.

Pre war fixed sighted guns have serial #s in 6* locations, target** models as many as 9*. Triple Locks have 7 including the mid lock cam plate, making it 10 locations on Target models.

*Post War continued the 6 and 9 (early Transitional target models with pre war sights only) s/n locations on fixed sight/target models with pre war sights until 1956-57, but dropped the 3 target sight locations post war on the new Micro-click sighted models, which were no longer specifically fitted to the top strap.

**Target models will have the serial number on the front sight, under rear sight, and the rear sight blade although sometimes not, and sometimes #'d with assembly (factory work) # instead of serial #. If the s/n is more than 4 digits, the front and rear sight blades can have a partial s/n. All three parts must be removed to observe the #s. Non-numbered front and rear sight blades have typically been replaced, in most observations.
We owe the Russians a vote of thanks; having been the 1st to require multi-serial # locations on their S&W #3 contract revolvers.

Here are the 6 (or 7 on Triple Locks) fixed sight frame serial # locations pre war and locations remaining after WW II until 1957 to look for (not including pre war target sight stamped serial #s):

Here are the 6 (or 7) fixed sight frame serial # locations.
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it’s there!

1. Gun butt* - or forestrap* on I frames with grips that cover the butt

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud

3. Yoke - on rear face visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only** - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material.

7. Mid-lock cam plate – “.44 HE 1st Model - Triple Locks” only, in any caliber (up to all 5 digits).

*NOTE: The one TRUE place you can be sure of reading the original serial number for all Hand Ejectors of any vintage with stamped numbers, (which includes any letter prefixes after WW II,) is the BUTT of the gun, (or Front grip strap on non-round butt .22/32 Kit guns and Targets and .32 & .38 S&W Regulation Police pre Model of 1953 I frames). The number on the butt may be drilled thru by the factory for installation of a lanyard swivel but is re-stamped on the grip frame, under the left stock. Factory installed swivels are always 1/10” forward of center. Generally the Pre war serial # on the butt reads with barrel to the right including I frame serial numbers on the forestrap. After WW II it reads with barrel to the left except for serial numbers on the forestrap.

** Stamped since 1857, stock #s, always right side only, changed to penciled #s c. 1900 and back to stamped #s in 1929. Scratched, penciled or stamped on hard rubber and premium stocks; numbering discontinued ~ late 1970s.

Decreasing Serial # locations began May 1, 1957 when S&W eliminated the Soft Fitting Operation. They stopped routinely stamping the serial number on the barrel, cylinder & yoke arm over a transition period. Serial # locations dropped from 6 locations to only 3; butt, back of right stock (until mid '70s), and extractor star (until c. 1980). So guns in process or in inventory as of 5/1/57 can still have more than 3 and up to 6 locations and guns shipped after this time will have the former number locations because assembly was done in advance and inventory using the old process had to be used up.

Eventually down to only 3 serial # locations left by c. late 1957 which are:
Gun butt
Extractor star - backside until ~ 1980 with the new extractor star shape.
Right stock – backside until ~ 1979 when stocks were no longer hand fitted.

Once laser engraved serial numbers were introduced, the last two locations continue on the bottom of the butt and in the yoke cut. But there are exceptions, like below the cylinder, left side of frame below the cyl window and may or may not be on the butt.

Assembly (factory work) #s: Other multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ on frame opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period. The assembly # in the yoke cut of the frame was relocated to the left side of grip frame after model #s were assigned and the serial # was added in the ‘yoke cut’ where the assembly #, moved to the grip frame, used to be. You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3 locations that always match on guns that are original, and that’s the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.
EXCEPTION: see rear target sight blade numbering under serial # locations above.

Serial number and assembly # locations have more changes soon after 1957 and get more confusing. When Model Number stamping began not long after being ordered June 12, 1957, the serial number was not yet stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ on the frame side of the yoke hinge until late 1959 and early 1960. Then the serial # was only stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. But soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the 'yoke cut' on all models, except on some smaller guns at first where it just didn't fit well. But when serial #s were stamped on the frame in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame assembly # from the 'yoke cut' was moved to the left side of the grip frame. The 3 assembly # locations, on yoke, left side of grip frame and backside of side plate remain to this day.

“The reason for the triple alpha-numeric serial number system is that S&W ran out of serial numbers that they had been using up to the 1980 and need a serial number series that had enough number possibilities to keep them going for many years. The first guns in the triple alpha four numeric series was the L frame revolvers starting AAA0001 in 1980. The rest of the models were slow phased in from 1980 to approximate 1983. When it came time to assign the new series to the auto-loading handguns they were started at TAA0001. After this the company jumped around in the new series depending if there was a demand for a special number. I actually have three guns serial numbered RGJ0001 - 0003 and they are all different models. ATF objected to the company assigning special numbers and so now they are in a little better order. I hope that this answers your question.” Roy

NOTE: 'B' or 'N' stamp: ahead of pre war serial #s on the barrel flat (or in shroud), rear face of yoke, on rear face of cyl by itself, behind the extractor star, and by itself on right side grip frame on commercial guns (only on left side grip frame on post war models) indicates an original Blue finish or for an original Nickel finish based upon the corresponding letter. The occasional absence of either the 'B' or 'N' can indicate that it left the factory nickeled. Also there was a larger B behind the barrel serial # for the Bright blue optional finish in the post war era - early ‘50s when satin blue was standard. “I've seen nickel Triple Locks with N stamps. I've seen them without it, too. Pre-war guns MAY have an N, or they may simply lack B's.” Regards, Lee Jarrett
The post war and the 1950s period, was one of much evolution. There was the usual transition when finish code letter stamps were dropped and frame code letter s/n prefixes began, when there were neither letter stamps on major parts (except the butt).

Larger B for "Bright Blue": will only appear on guns that had a Satin finish normally, but could be ordered in the optional Bright Blue. It is usually only seen on the various Masterpiece models in the 5 Screw era. It is a larger B than the one used to simply indicate a blued part, and it is a different font- more deluxe with serifs. It is also after the serial number on a barrel, whereas the smaller B that simply meant "Blue" is seen preceding the number.
It appears from early into the post-war Masterpieces till Bright Blue became standard.

At the very end of the 5 Screw era, you will see the entire model line phase into Bright Blue, including Masterpieces and the M&P's. The Mod 28 is of course an exception since it was always intended as an economy model.
__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Extractor star: “…were numbered from the early Hand Ejector models through about 1980. They were numbered because the ratchet lugs had been fitted to each particular gun’s lockwork, and it would be separated from the gun at some points of finishing. This is true for blue, nickel, and stainless guns. Regards, Lee Jarrett”
There are exceptions like anything S&W, but once the extractor star serial # stamping ceased c. 1980, only the butt and yoke cut stamping locations remain to this day.

Stock #s: stamped since 1857, changed to penciled #s c. 1900 and back to stamped #s in 1929. PW c. 1960 #s changed from high up on grip, sometimes 2 lines, to low and parallel to butt. The stock # and hand fitting were dropped c. mid to late 1970s due to a more accurate stock making technique.

Yoke cut stamping of the serial # on later guns is the reason for many pre 1957 guns to be incorrectly registered by the useless assembly (work) # on the frame in the yoke cut.

Target Sight numbering per Mike Priwer:
Photo by Mike Priwer

Photo by Mike Priwer

Model Number Stamping Nuances: stamping began eventually, after being ordered June 12, 1957, but the serial number was not stamped in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame side of the yoke hinge, until late 1959 or early 1960, and then it was only stamped there when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. Soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the yoke cut on all models, except on some smaller guns where it just didn't fit until later. When stamped in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame assembly # from the yoke cut was moved to the left side of the grip frame. The 3 assembly # locations remain to this day.

L stamp front cylinder face indicates left hand extractor rod threads, K & N frames.

M stamp in yoke on 586, 686, for firing pin recall.

Misc. single digit letter or number: stamps in yoke and cylinder and/or grip frame either side are fitter stamps and inspector stamps in general. An L on front face of cylinder of post 1960 models indicates left hand threaded extractor rod.

Caliber code single digit number stamped on grip frame: N frames. The normal side for the cal. code # is the left side.
357 Mag no number code observed
38 special will have an 8
44 special has a 4
44 Mag has a 0
45 ACP has a 5
45 colt should have a number 7 on either side of the grip frame (convertibles stamped E5 & E7)


Star by the serial #: On the bottom of the butt, forestrap, or left side of grip frame indicates a factory rework; began~ 1910, declined in the early 1960s along with date stamps.
Deviations: Roy Jinks once said that the star wasn't always used (earliest known 1926 and star was on several parts). A nickel .32 RP that was built pre-war went back post war and got a new barrel, cylinder and re-finish; It is not marked by the SN, but does have stars on the barrel, cylinder and yoke.
A New Model Number 3 target that was completely redone by the factory in June of 1956 doesn't have a star. A .32-20 re-finished in the early 1970's did get a star stamp. Also, the star was not always put on the butt by the serial number. If you didn't want the star stamp on the butt, the factory would stamp it on the grip frame under the grips, which fits with a few guns we've seen with the star on the grip frame.

Refinish/Rework Dates: after 1910 for a return to the factory are 3 or 4 digits depending on the actual date (sometimes 5 or 6) placed on left side of grip frame on the 'toe' stamped vertically or horizontally, and will not match any other stamped #s on the gun. Ex: 3.48 for March 1948, 10.2.57 for Oct 2, 1957, etc.
Sometimes letters in a rectangle or diamond, B (blue), N (nickel), or S (standard/blue) with an R (for refinish), on 'heel' of left side of grip frame. There might also be marks in diamonds like <S> (silver), <G> (gold), or a P (plated) with a circle. In the 1960s period, an S<> on grip frame and under barrel with a rework date meant refinish, standard (blue). Which stamping was used depended on the time frame and service technician working on the gun.
Refinish and date stamp usage is generally accepted to have declined in the early 1960s and was eventually eliminated altogether not too long after. Reportedly none have been observed since 1983.


Photo thx to Colby Bruce.


Photo thx to Masterpiece.



Is this the symbol for a reblued gun?
Unusual R-Bi stamping:

Photo by wetdog

S stamp Service Dept. Refinish: An S on the grip frame usually means 'Service Dept.' and was added when the factory fixed cosmetic or mechanical problems found on completed guns. S let the bluing dept. know that it needed to be returned to Service instead of the Fitters like the other ~200 barrels that they blued with it. Parts were blued in large batches.

Other S usages: on a barrel following the serial # most likely stands for Service, as in Service Dept. An S inside the Diamond usually stands for "Service Dept".
“S stamped on the sideplate under the grip horn, not the grip frame, and the S was added to the butt number of. Victory models that were upgraded to the new hammer block had an.” Lee

Diamonds/circles: were stamped on factory replaced parts or heel of grip frame on left side for refinish followed by letters, sometimes in a rectangle or diamond, B (blue), N (nickel), or S (standard/blue) with an R (for refinish), on 'heel' of left side of grip frame. A circle under the barrel can also indicate that the barrel was replaced.
A Diamond can also mean:
"Parts on Hand"- i.e. replacement parts sold out the door.
Parts modified by the factory on a new gun like a shortened barrel BEFORE originally being shipped can have a diamond stamp sometimes with an S inside indicating service dept. work, but w/o a rework date like guns returned to the factory!
It can mean a gun that had service work done, just like the Star was used.
There might also be marks in diamonds like <S> (silver), <G> (gold), or a P (plated) with a circle.
These are just rules of thumb, not at all meant to be an all inclusive list, and often lack consistency (especially size of digits) like anything from S&W.

R stamp: “The "R" [under barrel of trans. Kit Gun for example] indicates an “in house” rework of the revolver [on a gun that never shipped and therefore would not have a date stamp as opposed to rework on a customer gun]. Found on guns in inventory and not sold before World War II, reconditioned, and updated often after WW II before the factory could sell it.” Roy Jinks

"The R marking can indicate that a barrel was removed in manufacturing and returned for a repair, probably a finishing repair. This is done so that the barrel is returned to the Hard Fitting Department to be reinstalled and does not go back into the production line.” Roy
“Well there is no question how this gun was shipped. Below is attached a copy of the scan of the invoice. Just to let you know that on all important collectables that have special features I always check the invoice, if they are available.” Roy



Photo thx to Colby Bruce.



Photo thx to SebagoSon

Dingbats: Many wonder what the little iron cross-like marks are at the beginning and end of the cartridge and/or patent date roll mark on the barrel. Dingbats were a common typographical ornamentation used as a guide and referred to as "feet" back in the day to begin and end the barrel rollmarking to help align the stamping. They were used on many pre war guns then show up again after WW II on some models. The use of dingbats was inconsistent at S&W. Although one consistency seems to be they aren’t reported to be observed on the Smith & Wesson name stamp.

The only two styles observed, doesn't mean there aren't others, is the 3 legged and occasionally four legged. Those with four legs are the most similar to the Maltese Cross but the two vertical legs are thicker than the horizontal legs. The rectangular dingbat style with one open side is actually the usual 3 legged style but just deeply stamped.
Both styles can be observed on the same barrel.

My 44 Triple Lock has 4 legged dingbats on the address/patent dates stamping and 3 legged on the cartridge stamp. The little M frame .22 has them on both ends of the cartridge roll stamp.

See photo in post #4 here: 32 LONG CTG HELP ID.
IRON CROSS dingbat shown here: Typography - 46 Cool & Useful Dingbat Fonts | Think Design
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Old 12-18-2015, 09:25 PM
j_compton j_compton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector View Post
Welcome aboard.
That is a beauty!

One more tidbit-
The ejector rod knob is gray because it is a separate piece in that era screwed onto the rod. The gray color is the result of it being case hardened, not blued. The rood and knob would become one piece just 2 or 3 years after your gun was made.

The holster is likely contemporary to the gun, but is not likely to have shipped from S&W.

Any chance of locating the box in that short chain of ownership?

If it is as clean as I think it might be, I think it could fetch more than $2000.
I wish the box was still around.
My friend found this in a friends attic after he passed away in the late 60's. It was there in just the leather holster and no box...
The man who passed, was a very wealthy man. And was all over the world many times over and picked up various guns here and there... This back in the 20's and 30's and I understand. Which tells me I'm more likely the 4th owner than the third... As the gun predates his travels.
Who is to know for sure.

As for how clean. There are couple spots on the cylinder where the bluing has rubbed off from the holster I think. And there is a bit of wear on the bluing at the end of the barrel (again, from the holster I imagine). The condition its in would lead me to believe that very few rounds ever went through it.


Jeremy
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Old 12-18-2015, 09:28 PM
j_compton j_compton is offline
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Hi.. new here.  Need help identifying an early model revolver Hi.. new here.  Need help identifying an early model revolver Hi.. new here.  Need help identifying an early model revolver Hi.. new here.  Need help identifying an early model revolver Hi.. new here.  Need help identifying an early model revolver  
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Wow... Thanks Hondo.
The information keeps coming. I have compiled a document with some the information people have shared. Gonna print it and keep it with the gun... You know.. One day I may not be around.. Though probabaly many decades away... It'll be nice for the next guy to have a bit of info to start with.

Thanks again.

Jeremy
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Old 12-18-2015, 10:34 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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Hi.. new here.  Need help identifying an early model revolver Hi.. new here.  Need help identifying an early model revolver Hi.. new here.  Need help identifying an early model revolver Hi.. new here.  Need help identifying an early model revolver Hi.. new here.  Need help identifying an early model revolver  
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Jeremy,

That's an excellent idea. The provenance you know about it's former ownership would be great to include as well.

Having a notarized letter of provenance is good for any gun but especially a family heirloom. And the content is crucial as well. Most do not know the criteria for a good letter. Besides family stories, it's important to establish a "trail" for the gun for example:

The trail starts in __(city)___,_(state)__ with date, those are known facts.

Next, try to connect (or state probability of connection) to the individual the gun was shipped new to or to the person of farthest back ownership, with names, dates, times and places stated.

That's true provenance and not easy to get. But even though the seller or family may know some of these or clues about these things, they won't get in the letter unless they’re asked specifically about them. If you find former owners, you really have to do an interview with them and draft the provenance letter for them to sign as true to the best of their knowledge with notarization.

W/o something written, it's just another old gun tied only to 'hersay' or word of mouth which is never recalled accurately by later family members or owners. It might be interesting but does not justify any premium to be paid for a gun or appreciation of its value if some former owner is famous, well known, and/or has some celebrity.
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Old 12-18-2015, 11:10 PM
jhde69 jhde69 is offline
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Glowe. Did I see you live in the UP? If you spend the winter up there the ren wax is great. As it gets colder outside the revolvers come from the safe in the evening and I start waxing. So it can be to cold out to shoot I can at least handle my toys.
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