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02-14-2016, 11:22 AM
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S&W 5 screw, .38, green Military gun help needed
Hello, I have a S&W, .38 caliber, 5 screw, military gun that has "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" stamped on top of the sight rail on the left side. It also has a 5" barrel, fixed front and rear sights, standard, non-checkered wood grips, a lanyard ring at the bottom of the grip frame, VEGA SAC CA. on left right above the trigger, SMITH & WESSON on the left side of the barrel, #N139479 stamped on the bottom of the grip frame at the bottom, to the rear of the lanyard ring, and WB stamped in the same area in front of the lanyard ring. The same # is also stamped on the front face of the cylinder, and under the barrel at the rear, #88076 stamped on either side of the crane that can be seen when you open the cylinder, SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS, USA PATENTED FEB.6.06.DEC.23.14 stamped on the top of the barrel(unsure on a couple of those #'s, but that is what is see under magnification), MADE IN USA stamped on the right side on the frame, above and in front of the trigger with a bunch of other #'s and odd symbols, the S&S logo is stamped on the left side where it usually is, and 38 S&W CTG with a symbol in front and to the rear of that stamp on the right side of the barrel. The gun is green and has a nice case colored hammer and trigger. It is in very good/excellent shape and shows very little wear. Bore is sharp, and the action is tight. Can someone help me here with when this was made, what for and maybe a value? Thanks, Keener
Last edited by keener; 02-14-2016 at 11:44 AM.
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02-14-2016, 01:01 PM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Hello, nice complete description, except for the color. Also, based on everything else you say, the letter should be V, not N before the serial number. I'll assume that for the rest of what I'm telling you.
I hope it has not actually been painted green, but that's just your impression of the wartime phosphate finish the gun should have originally. Alternatively, it could be a re-finished Australian BSR. Their type of "parkerizing" sometimes can look almost green. Is one of the odd markings on the right side an "FTR", by any chance?
It's a British Service Revolver. a.k.a. British Victory model from fall 1942, and it sounds complete. The stamp on the top strap signifies it was made for lend-lease and shipped to Britain, and Vega in Sacramento was the re-importer after the war, post-1968 as the GCA of that year required such marks. Many of the other odd symbols you mention are going to be British commercial post-war proof marks applied when the gun was surplussed out for re-sale.
One thing to check is whether the chambers have been converted to fire .38 Special, which happened to a lot of these guns. Try to insert a live .38 Spl. round. If it seats fully, it has been converted.
As for value, a lot depends on condition. On these, collectors really look for unmodified ones without post-war import marks. Pictures would help, but $250 - $300 would be a ballpark.
Last edited by Absalom; 02-14-2016 at 01:16 PM.
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02-14-2016, 01:53 PM
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Hello and thanks for the reply. I have looked closer and see that the letter before the serial # is a "V" and not an "N". When I say green, the gun looks to be a green color, drab army green color. Definitely not been painted as it is the same color inside the side plate. I'm pretty sure that whatever the finish is, it is original, I just don't know what you call it. Is the phosphate finish you mention a greenish color? Yes, it does have the "FTR" stamping on the right side on the frame in front of the trigger. Not sure what that means. I did try to load a live .38 spec cartridge in the cylinder and it lacks about 3/8 inch of going in, so must not have been reconverted. I just encountered a little problem though... I was working the action, and pushed the cylinder release button to release the cylinder and when I put the cylinder back in, it just goes around now and does not catch. That button that comes up underneath the cylinder no longer comes up and engages. I took the side plate off and all is visible of course, but can't see what the problem might be. Any suggestions there? I'm pretty capable, have proper gunsmith tools from Brownells, so suggesting a fix is ok.Thanks, Keener
PS: I'm happy that it is all original and has not been messed with and will await for your replies.
PSS: The barrel does have the "38 S&W CTG on the right side of the barrel and the assembly # on the inside of the side plate matches the other assembly #'s inside the crane area
Last edited by keener; 03-13-2016 at 06:44 PM.
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02-14-2016, 02:06 PM
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The phosphate finish (Parkerizing was the brand name, but "Black Magic" from S & W) could vary from dark gray to green depending on the batch.
With the WB stamp on the bottom of the grip frame, I think it may be an earlier .38/200 British Service Revolver from before April 1942; these had the pre-war serial number format, read with the barrel pointing right and with numbers that are not clearly stamped. In this case it may have a six-digit SN beginning with the number 6, but an 8 may look like a 3 or another 6, etc.
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02-14-2016, 02:07 PM
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Is there an MA and a number like 55 with the FTR? FTR means Factory Throrough Repair and indicates a complete work-over by a government-authorized entity; most frequently these are found from the Lithgow Small Arms Factory in New South Wales, Australia. An MA and a number for the year would confirm that. But they were done elsewhere too, I think. And yes, a drab army green color, including inside the sideplate, would strongly indicate not paint, but a refinish as part of the FTR.
Sorry, someone else will have to help you with the gunsmithing part. I'm more of a history nerd .
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02-14-2016, 02:18 PM
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The non-functioning cylinder stop is probably just some dirt. With the side plate off,
you will see the stop, sitting right in front of the trigger. With the cylinder open, and
a small screw-driver, you might try working the cylinder stop up and down. If it will
function then, just put a couple of drops of oil on it.
If there is still an issue, the problem may be with its retaining spring. Maybe its
missing or broken. Remove the screw in the front of the trigger guard - its the
retainer for the cylinder stop spring. You might need a thin pick to get it out, as it
sometimes get caught in the internal threads of the retaining screw. In front of the
spring is a pin, that pushes up against the cylinder stop. All of that needs to be
removed, cleaned, and oiled. Its easier to do if you remove the rebound slide and
the trigger. If you do that, remove everything in the lockwork and give it a good
cleaning.
Come back here if you have further questions.
Mike Priwer
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02-14-2016, 02:44 PM
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Just be very careful when taking some of these older S&W's apart especially if you don't know what is inside when removing a screw. As Mike so eloquently explained, sometimes there are springs behind these screws and sometimes these springs decide to go air born. (Don't bother asking how I know this)
Some home gunsmiths will recommend that you disassemble any firearm inside of a large food storage bag. You can still see what you are doing but flying parts get caught by the bag.
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02-14-2016, 02:49 PM
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I has a # MA54 in the area you mentioned so would guess that the reconditioning was done in 1954?? Is that a bad thing as far as value goes to have these that have been reconditioned? In regards to the problem with function that I mentioned above...with the gun laying on it's left side, side pan off, I was able to push the little catch knob that is supposed to go up and catch/lock the cylinder over just a bit and it popped up. It certainly works better after some oil, but still will not go clear up and into position into the cylinder sometimes unless I roll the cylinder back just a bit. Keener
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02-14-2016, 02:57 PM
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In regards to the function problem...when I cock the pistol, I have to turn the cylinder back just a bit before the lock button springs up and latches the cylinder. It does it almost every time I cock it. Is that a timing problem? Keener
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02-14-2016, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keener
I has a # MA54 in the area you mentioned so would guess that the reconditioning was done in 1954?? Is that a bad thing as far as value goes to have these that have been reconditioned?....
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Yes, that would be 1954. MA is short for Munitions Australia, by the way.
As for value, let me put it this way. There are unmodified British Service Revolvers with only the wartime markings that somehow made it back into this country before 1968 without being officially released by the British or other "host country". Those are fairly uncommon and will command a premium.
Then there are the various and much more numerous official re-imports in various stages of modification, refinish, and mutilation which collectors generally have no interest in and which command fairly low prices.
Yours falls somewhat in the middle. Unlike in Britain, the Australian BSR's (just like the South African ones) stayed in service for quite some time after the war. Lithgow functioned (and still does) basically like a government arsenal, so the FTR was not a dubious commercial aftermarket job like the refinishes on a lot of British re-imports, but part of the gun's service history. It not having been converted also helps its value.
So it's not as valuable as an all-original one, but among the post-war imports, one of the best. I'd up my previous estimate to up to $350 or maybe even a bit over if it's as nice as you say.
PS: Lithgow is a place I'd like to visit sometime. From what you can find on the internet, they have a great museum.
Last edited by Absalom; 02-14-2016 at 03:37 PM.
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02-14-2016, 03:26 PM
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The condition is pretty nice for sure...thanks for the history lesson. Well done! Keener
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02-14-2016, 03:34 PM
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By chance have you reinstalled the "hand" (that actuates the cylinder rotation) without getting the spring engaged inside the trigger? (making sure it is unloaded) Point the gun at the ceiling and pull the trigger double action, does the cylinder rotate? If not the hand is disconnected.
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02-14-2016, 03:40 PM
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"WB stamped in the same area in front of the lanyard ring"
W.B. - The acceptance mark of Ordnance officer Col Waldemar Broberg is located on the butt (to about serial number V151350) used until about late 1942. One reference provides an incorrect early serial number for the W.B. acceptance stamp change to G.H.D.
It is possible that the cylinder may be out of time. The cylinder stop tab should release into the little scoop ahead of the stop notches on the cylinder just before the hammer is fully retracted. It sounds like it may be falling a little late, which is sort of unusual. Does it happen in both SA and DA? Did you pull out all of the internal components and clean them?
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02-14-2016, 05:01 PM
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I'm not sure it is a timing issue. When the trigger is pulled back, either because
of single-action or double-action, the cylinder stop has to drop down initially, so as to
unlock the cylinder. At some point in the rotation, it should pop back up, and ride on
the side of the cylinder. (This is where the cylinder drag line comes from, and it is
intentional.)
With the cylinder closed, pay close attention to the behavior of the cylinder stop, as
you cycle the action. Make sure it is unlocking before the cylinder starts to rotate,
and then make sure it is coming back to ride on the cylinder before the cylinder
rotation has completed. If its doing that, then its almost impossible for it to not
fall into the cylinder stop notches.
If its functioning right, but not dropping into the notch, check the stop notches
carefully. Maybe there is some bit of dirt, or a bit of metal, that is not allowing
the cylinder stop to drop into place.
If the cylinder stop itself is not behaving as described above, then something is
impeding its movement, or the spring is broken or missing or dirty, or the pin that
is powered by the spring is dirty, or missing, or broken, etc. That area does have to
be clean and lubricated, for the cylinder stop to function properly.
Another possibility is that the cylinder stop itself is a replacement, and it a bit too wide for the
stop notches. Typically the width is about 0.102 to 0.104". If the little frame window that it pops up
in was badly damaged or worn, someone might have put an oversize cylinder stop in the gun. In such
as case, it might be a tad too wide to fit the notches properly.
Mike Priwer
Last edited by mikepriwer; 02-14-2016 at 05:04 PM.
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02-14-2016, 05:27 PM
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Thanks for the technical comments Mike. It is amazing what u folks not only know, but are willing to share. I will look at things in a bit...cleaning the house now to keep myself out of trouble. Not sure that is possible though. Keener
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02-14-2016, 05:41 PM
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If a Parkerized gun, the standard finish, is packed in cosmoline it turns a greenish color. I had a nice M2 Carbine with a nice dark green/olive green color. I had a Remington-Rand M1911 that I bought still in the paper and cosmoline, it was a nice olive green when I opened it.
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02-14-2016, 06:24 PM
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I took the screw and spring assembly out from in front of the trigger and cleaned it all off, oiled up and put back in. Made it a little better, but not fixed. After recently fighting a Walther PP that had a spring problem, I think I would like to replace the spring in back of the trigger that would push the trigger forward again, and the spring in front of the trigger under the screw. Do you know who might have these and what might you call those so I get it correct. Wolff have them if you know?? I am also looking at the thickness of that little cylinder stop button you mentioned. It seems to always hang up on the right side of things. Wish it was easy to get out so I could stone it a tad. Keener
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02-14-2016, 06:41 PM
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It's not likely you need either spring replaced as they seldom weaken to the extent of requiring replacement. The second spring you mention is the rebound slide spring. I have never seen one of those (if original, and not shortened) weaken. It's normally not difficult to remove the cylinder stop if the spring and plunger are removed. What's the problem?
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02-14-2016, 06:58 PM
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How does one remove the spring and plunger to get the cylinder stop out? I read a post above that mentions that the cylinder stop. It was mentioned in a post above that the cylinder stop may have been replaced at one time by one just a tad wider, and that this could be causing a problem and not allowing it to seat/engage all the time correctly. Keener
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02-14-2016, 07:42 PM
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"How does one remove the spring and plunger to get the cylinder stop out?"
There is a small plug screw just ahead of the trigger guard bow. Just remove it and the spring and plunger should fall out. Or maybe you might have to assist it a little with a very small screwdriver.
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02-14-2016, 07:57 PM
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OK...I got the screw and spring in front of the trigger out and got the trigger out enough to get the cylinder lock and whatever that device is that it is welded to out. They are one unit...I think I see the problem...the cylinder lock piece is bent to one side a bit and I can see why it is not seating properly. I am afraid to bend it back for fear of it breaking loose. Are those units available if I would do that and break it/crack it, or should I be getting it red hot before trying to bend it back straight? Thanks for sticking with me here. I'm not smart enough to post pictures, but could send one to a private email if someone is willing. Keener
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02-14-2016, 08:06 PM
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Here is a link to a page in Brownells catalog that shows the trigger rebound slide
removal tool. If you are handy with a few tools, you can make this yourself. It
simply compress's the spring in the rebound slide, so that you can lift the slide up and
off.
S&W REBOUND SLIDE SPRING TOOL | Brownells
With the slide removed, you can remove the trigger assembly. You have to move the
hand to the rear first, then lift the trigger straight up and out. Then, with the tension
off the cylinder stop, you can easily remove the cylinder stop.
There is a key question that still remains. Exactly what is happening with the cylinder
stop and cylinder when you cycle the action ? Is the cylinder over-shooting the stop,
so that you have to rotate it backwards a bit, to get the stop to snap into the stop
notch ? Or, does the cylinder need just a bit more rotation to get the stop to fall
into the notch ?
Mike Priwer
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02-14-2016, 08:17 PM
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Hi Mike, read my above post for what I found when I got the cylinder stop out of the gun. The problem with the operation is that the cylinder stop was not always engaging in the cylinder and locking it. There are no problems with the gun or the cylinder from what I can see. I had to turn it back just a bit to get it to engage. Because the cylinder stop is bent as I mentioned above, I can see why the problems. Not sure as yet what to do about the bent part. I found a new one on the net that says "over-sized cylinder stop" for about $60.00, but don't know what the over-sized thing means. As I said, I am afraid I will break it off or crack it if I try to just bend it back. Will wait to hear from u experts Keener
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02-14-2016, 08:20 PM
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This is my home made tool for removing the rebound slide and spring. Takes maybe 5 minutes to make one from a hook screw and a short piece of wooden dowel.
[
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02-14-2016, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keener
Hi Mike, read my above post for what I found when I got the cylinder stop out of the gun. The problem with the operation is that the cylinder stop was not always engaging in the cylinder and locking it. There are no problems with the gun or the cylinder from what I can see. I had to turn it back just a bit to get it to engage. Because the cylinder stop is bent as I mentioned above, I can see why the problems. Not sure as yet what to do about the bent part. I found a new one on the net that says "over-sized cylinder stop" for about $60.00, but don't know what the over-sized thing means. As I said, I am afraid I will break it off or crack it if I try to just bend it back. Will wait to hear from u experts Keener
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I don't remember ever seeing a bent stop. If possible, can you post a picture to show the problem? You should be able to find one cheaper than $60. Be aware that the cylinder stop on yours is not the same as on those revolvers made since about 1962.
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02-14-2016, 08:34 PM
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DWalt...as I said above, I am not smart enough to post a picture to the site, but could send it to you for a look-see if that be ok. Then you could post if you want. What say you? Keener
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02-14-2016, 08:44 PM
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DEwalt, I sent you a PM
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02-14-2016, 10:31 PM
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Somehow I missed your note about the cylinder stop being bent. I can post the picture
for you, if you'd like. Email it to [email protected]
An oversize cylinder stop refers to the width of that portion of the cylinder stop that
projects through the frame and into the cylinder notch. The normal width is about 0.104". Oversize can mean 0.106 or larger. Don't get an oversize one until you get this
bent issue cleared up.
Mike Priwer
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02-14-2016, 11:28 PM
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Pictures sent. You can see it is bent up pretty badly and not surprised that we have function problem. The area where the two parts join looks very thin. There is a crack present where it bent. Not sure the part is not hashed/re-worked. I'm not even sure what a new one is supposed to look like. Let me know. Thanks, Keener
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02-15-2016, 03:23 AM
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No doubt about it - the cylinder stop is bent, and its not going to work properly, if at all.
I have some extra ones . Maybe you can send me this one, and I'll pick out one that
ought to work. I'll send you my address, to your email .
Mike Priwer
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02-15-2016, 10:08 AM
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wow...that is very nice. Send address and I will get it in the mail to u. This one of mine has been worked over as you can see how thin the metal is where the two pieces join and it also has a crack in that area. Mine is very thin and it's no wonder it is bent. Thanks, Keener
Last edited by keener; 02-15-2016 at 10:09 AM.
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02-15-2016, 10:11 AM
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Got it and things will be in the mail today. You live in the town I grew up in. Thanks, Keener
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02-15-2016, 11:24 AM
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I'd bend it back. You have nothing to lose trying to straighten it. I would NOT heat it.
Tip for everyone for removing the cyl stop spring-
Remove the screw and gently push a regular old round toothpick into the hole. It will usually wedge itself into the spring without distorting it and pull it out.
Tip for everyone for removing the yoke stop spring on the older guns that have one-
They are usually gunked up and take more than the toothpick to pull the out.
Straighten a paper clip and rebend the short end to make a sharp angle. Cut the short leg off close to the long section with a pair of dikes or sidecutters leaving the slightest possible hook. Slide it into the spring and tilt it to hook the spring and slide it out.
Takes about 20 seconds to make this. If it makes you feel better, knock the burr off the end with the finest file you have.
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Lee Jarrett
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02-15-2016, 12:00 PM
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As stated in above post, the metal is very thin where the two different parts join, looks worked over/hashed and there is already a crack in that area. No way would I re-install the cracked, hashed up part just to have it fail down the road, and it will fail. Keener
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02-15-2016, 12:59 PM
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Another tip for removing the yoke stop spring. Take an old-fashion pipe cleaner, and
thread it into the yoke spring hole. Not only will it clean the hole, but it will usually
thread itself into the spring. Then pull it out, and holding on to the spring, unscrew the
pipe cleaner from the thread.
This method also saves paper clips !
Mike Priwer
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02-23-2016, 09:55 AM
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Hello, I just wanted to report back on this thread and let you all know how it turned out. As you remember, my cylinder stop was bent/cracked and causing a lot of function problems with the gun. I bought a nice cylinder stop from a member here and after comparing the old one to the replacement one, it was easy to see how my original one had been modified, ground down, etc, etc. We have no idea why these modifications were made as the new one fit perfectly in the gun and everything worked great. My first shot with it was dead center on the bulls eye at about 30'. I like the gun and it will be a keeper for me. Thanks to you all for your help with this. I certainly appreciated that. Keener
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03-13-2016, 08:08 PM
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I am writing this all up and will put it in the file for the Victory. Just two questions...W.B. - The acceptance mark of Ordnance officer Col Waldemar Broberg located on the butt...what Country was this guy from. Also, the cylinder ejection rod is the black, whereas the rest of the gun, except for the CC hammer and trigger, is the greenish phosphate finish. Is that correct that this rod be black? Thanks, Keener
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03-13-2016, 08:34 PM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keener
I am writing this all up and will put it in the file for the Victory. Just two questions...W.B. - The acceptance mark of Ordnance officer Col Waldemar Broberg located on the butt...what Country was this guy from. Also, the cylinder ejection rod is the black, whereas the rest of the gun, except for the CC hammer and trigger, is the greenish phosphate finish. Is that correct that this rod be black? Thanks, Keener
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Broberg was an officer assigned to US Army Ordnance and during this time worked at the Hartford Ordnance District, Springfield, Mass.
Yes, all ejector rods I've seen on any variation of the Victory did not have the matte phosphate, but a shiny black finish. Whether that was from the repeated motion of the rod, inevitable even on mint unissued guns, or whether they never were matte, I do not know. Since I think we established that your gun was FTR'd, they probably just left it to avoid binding issues if it received a new coating.
Last edited by Absalom; 03-13-2016 at 08:37 PM.
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03-13-2016, 08:50 PM
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Perfect!!...Thanks for that info. Keener
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03-15-2016, 06:08 PM
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Sorry...just one more question about this old revolver. There is some stamping on the top of the barrel, and I'm not sure that I got it correct. I think it says..."SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS, USA PATENTED FEB.6.05.SEPT.14.09.DEC.23.14". Is that correct or did I get something wrong here? Hard to read some of the #'s/letters. Thanks again, Keener
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03-15-2016, 07:11 PM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Join Date: Jan 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keener
Sorry...just one more question about this old revolver. There is some stamping on the top of the barrel, and I'm not sure that I got it correct. I think it says..."SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS, USA PATENTED FEB.6.05.SEPT.14.09.DEC.23.14". Is that correct or did I get something wrong here? Hard to read some of the #'s/letters. Thanks again, Keener
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I believe the 05 is 06 and the 23 is 29.
Last edited by Absalom; 03-15-2016 at 07:14 PM.
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03-15-2016, 08:04 PM
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WOW!! Good job with the answer and the good clear picture. Thank you again for the help. Keener
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