Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Revolvers > S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961
o

Notices

S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-05-2016, 03:38 PM
gjamison's Avatar
gjamison gjamison is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 2,605
Likes: 266
Liked 2,564 Times in 465 Posts
Default .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....

I have a soft spot in my heart for early M&P's. When I saw this one I knew it was fairly early, it has the long throw hammer, large ejector knob, hole drilled and plugged for a lanyard ring, lets not forget those great looking pre war K frame magnas,that number to the gun. Serial #S815348.

Could this be called a post war transition? Enjoy!










__________________
George Jamison
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-05-2016, 03:46 PM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

The term "transition" is somewhat unpopular, since undefined and imprecise, but what you have could probably lay claim to the term with the most justification, namely a Victory frame finished as a commercial M&P right after the war and likely shipped around March 1946. Nice one.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 03-05-2016, 03:59 PM
gmborkovic gmborkovic is offline
SWCA Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: VA & SoFL
Posts: 8,644
Likes: 469
Liked 5,697 Times in 3,186 Posts
Default

Oh man, those grips are killers. I like them also.
__________________
Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-05-2016, 04:26 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,948 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

S815348 would indicate an early postwar M&P which likely shipped around April-June 1946. Yours does have the prized pre-war style Magna grips. There has been some discussion that those grips may have been manufactured for a short while just after WWII concluded, others think that they may have been left over from before WWII. I don't know which is correct - maybe both. Some like to use the term "transition" for those revolvers made within the first few years (until early 1948) after the end of WWII, but I believe that just calling them "Postwar" revolvers is a more apt description, as there is no precise definition of "transition." The big change which essentially ended what is considered the postwar production period occurred in early 1948 when the M&P action was changed from the prewar "long" style to the "short" (high speed hammer) style. That occurred at an approximate SN of slightly over S990000. Yours has the older long action. It is in no way a Victory, despite the plugged lanyard loop hole in the butt. Production of Victories ceased at war's end, but some leftover Victory (SV series) frames and parts remaining in factory inventory were finished as civilian revolvers and sold on the domestic market in the early months of 1946, before the S series started.

Last edited by DWalt; 03-05-2016 at 05:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 03-05-2016, 05:53 PM
mbliss57's Avatar
mbliss57 mbliss57 is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Desert South West
Posts: 5,540
Likes: 7,356
Liked 8,688 Times in 2,312 Posts
Default

That is very nice indeed I bought one last month S/N s900xxx. Mine came with original box but I did not get the pre was K magnas..those are stunning! Great find.
__________________
John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-05-2016, 06:16 PM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
........ It is in no way a Victory, despite the plugged lanyard loop hole in the butt. Production of Victories ceased at war's end, but some leftover Victory (SV series) frames and parts remaining in factory inventory were finished as civilian revolvers and sold on the domestic market in the early months of 1946, before the S series started.
We may be splitting hairs here, but if I understand you correctly you contend that, because it is an S and not SV prefix, this frame cannot be a Victory frame, but must have been produced early post-war, then drilled for a Victory-style lanyard loop, but then had that hole plugged? This seems a bit far-fetched, but I'm happy to be convinced otherwise if there is evidence of that happening. Anything is possible with S&W.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 03-05-2016, 07:05 PM
JP@AK's Avatar
JP@AK JP@AK is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 5,114
Liked 18,984 Times in 6,864 Posts
Default

gjamison
You have a very nice looking postwar .38 Military & Police revolver. Based on the serial number, I believe it very likely shipped in March, 1946. I show several in that serial range that shipped during that month. There are also some in the S815xxx range that shipped to the Cleveland PD in February of that year. Those have slightly higher serial numbers than your gun.

Your stocks are among the very highest serial numbers that I have found that have the prewar checkering with the machined steel washers and blue finish. In the serial range just above yours, we find stocks with the postwar checkering pattern that have the machined steel washers with a blued finish. Those peter out at about S820xxx. After that, they all seem to have the stamped steel washer.
__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 03-05-2016, 07:08 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,948 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

M&Ps in the S812xxx to S816xxx range will still have the swivel hole in the butt. And even later ones. Back in that period, S&W made lots of revolvers with swivels for police.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-05-2016, 07:25 PM
JP@AK's Avatar
JP@AK JP@AK is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 5,114
Liked 18,984 Times in 6,864 Posts
Default

Absalom
Here is the way I look at this, for whatever it is worth.

The late Victory Model (after December, 1944) and the early postwar .38 M&P clearly used the same frame and inner lock works. It is very difficult to know when the frames were actually forged, but that really doesn't matter for nomenclature purposes. After the last wartime gun shipped to the Navy on August 13, 1945, there were no more military Victory Model revolvers. Two days later, Japan's surrender was announced.

S&W then began tooling up to return to civilian production. Of course they used up revolvers and parts that were on hand and many of those had the SV prefix. I have no doubt that there were racks and racks of forged frames waiting to be used. There were also barrels and other parts left over. These were redirected to civilian demand, including the demand for revolvers from stateside police departments. SV prefix guns were used to fill those early orders. Eventually those were used up and subsequent assembly began using revolvers marked with a simple S prefix. I don't think of any of those guns as Victory Models. I tend to use that term only for revolvers that were sent to the military or the DSC.

A revolver that was sent to a PD or a civilian distributor would be considered a postwar Military & Police revolver, even though the gun itself is largely indistinguishable from a Victory Model. Those civilian shipments seem to have begun in February, 1946, although a much larger number began shipping the next month.

Anyway, that is how I compartmentalize these guns in my own mind, and I tend to think most collectors who concentrate on this period feel the same way. I don't think it matters that they were essentially the same gun.

Edited to add: I've located quite a few SV revolvers in the SV769xxx to SV774xxx range that shipped to the civilian market. They went out the door in March, 1946. Clearly, these were left over from military production but were never sent to the military.
__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Last edited by JP@AK; 03-05-2016 at 07:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 03-05-2016, 07:29 PM
JP@AK's Avatar
JP@AK JP@AK is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 5,114
Liked 18,984 Times in 6,864 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
M&Ps in the S812xxx to S816xxx range will still have the swivel hole in the butt. And even later ones.
Yes. The highest S prefix gun I've found with a plugged lanyard swivel hole is S829071. But the heavy concentration of them stops around S819xxx. Coincidentally, that is about the same point at which the threaded hammer pivot stud disappears.
__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-05-2016, 07:35 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

George,

That's certainly a gorgeous specimen in both condition and features.

Without an SV serial prefix, it's clearly not a "Post war Commercial Victory Revolver" and "pre model 10" is certainly premature. And although "post war" is very generally accurate does it really embody the uniqueness of your gun? It certainly doesn't indicate the presence of all these features:

One line frame stamp instead of the four line address,
pre war/wartime barrel style extractor knob,
long action, flat sided hammer pre 4/7/48 & S990184 "short cocking action",
pre war Magna stocks with square cornered checkering border and flat silver medallions with machined retainer washers,
offset serial # and factory plugged lanyard swivel hole (pg 142, SCSW),
and of course sliding bar hammer block safety.

Therefore, and although "Transistional model" is not normally associated with M&P models, yours has all the "ear marks" listed on page 153, SCSW 3rd.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duct, it's a duck.

"Post SV Com'l/pre short action" accurately describes your M&P but is there a more succinctly descriptive term than "War-time transitional"?

Now there's no S&W police so we're all free to use whatever term we choose for our own guns without redress, but personally I choose that which most accurately describes what I have w/o pulling out my wallet to show a portfolio of photos.

Your M&P is one of a small and unique production niche and deserves a term instantly in recognition of that IMHO.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 03-05-2016 at 07:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-05-2016, 07:40 PM
JSR III's Avatar
JSR III JSR III is offline
SWCA Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 9,575
Likes: 3,695
Liked 8,924 Times in 3,545 Posts
Default

I own one that I thought was close but upon checking it does not have the S. It is 802544 and according to Roy it shipped in July of 1941. It has a 6" barrel and a lanyard ring but did not ship to the military.

I also have S 937988 that shipped on 9/9/1948 (my birthday minus 2 years) and S 955509 that shipped in November of 1947. Again showing that serial numbers and dates mean nothing.
__________________
James Redfield
LM #497

Last edited by JSR III; 03-05-2016 at 07:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 03-05-2016, 07:50 PM
JP@AK's Avatar
JP@AK JP@AK is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 5,114
Liked 18,984 Times in 6,864 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR III View Post
I also have S937988 that shipped on 9/9/1948
James - are you sure of that? I have that one recorded as shipping on September 9, 1947. That fits perfectly with numerous other revolvers in the same serial range. Would you check your letter and let me know? If my database is incorrect, I want to amend it.

Quote:
S955509 that shipped in November of 1947
Several other revolvers in the same serial range shipped in that month. So that date tracks with what appears to be the normal pattern of shipments, based on my accumulated data.
__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-05-2016, 08:10 PM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

Interesting perspectives. And not necessarily contradictory, since it just defines terms based on preferred criteria.

I prefer to stick with the one physical characteristic that actually distinguished the Victory frame from the post-war M&P frame: the lanyard hole as a standard feature. (Features such as finish or stocks don't count here as they are external to the frame). Just like the lanyard hole serves to distinguish a pre-Victory from a pre-war commercial M&P, at least as I use the term, so it can best serve here as a handy waypoint to separate a transitional gun like the OP's, one with features of both Victory and civilian M&P, from the true commercial post-war M&P. Of course there is the possibility that this might be a post-war frame drilled for a police order and then plugged when someone changed their mind, as DWalt seems to suggest, but I've always been a fan of Occam's razor and favor the simple explanation in the absence of evidence to the contrary. That does not mean that I am calling this a Victory in any way, but it is a truly transitional model.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-05-2016, 09:57 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Absalom,

I agree it's a true transistional model.

But that's a little contradictory with Occam's razor and may not be a valid application of it, when applied as you suggest to S&Ws by just considering the frame. Because there is evidence in the form of features rather than assumptions. Plus just considering the frame creates an entire plethora of inconsistencies, because there would be no distinctions between many, many S&W models to wit:

M&P "change numbers" we use that did not require different frame machining,
2nd and 3rd model pre war 44 N Frames,
post war transistionals, pre models and numbered models,
Many dash number changes, just to name a few.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-05-2016, 10:32 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,948 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

"Of course there is the possibility that this might be a post-war frame drilled for a police order and then plugged when someone changed their mind, as DWalt seems to suggest..."

I wasn't suggesting that, but it is possible. What I would suggest is that even though the frames are of early postwar manufacture, S&W continued to drill swivel holes in the butt of every frame as a standard practice for a brief period, possibly in the expectation of many large police orders at that time, and so that practice would have been logical and justifiable. If they received orders for civilian non-LE sale, they simply pinned plugs into the holes. I would say that it is very unlikely that any frames of the S-series were made before the end of the war. S&W typically serial numbered frames during frame manufacture for future assembly, and the S-series frames were then necessarily of postwar manufacture.

Last edited by DWalt; 03-05-2016 at 10:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-06-2016, 12:02 AM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
[B][I]...... What I would suggest is that even though the frames are of early postwar manufacture, S&W continued to drill swivel holes in the butt of every frame as a standard practice for a brief period, possibly in the expectation of many large police orders at that time, and so that practice would have been logical and justifiable. If they received orders for civilian non-LE sale, they simply pinned plugs into the holes. I would say that it is very unlikely that any frames of the S-series were made before the end of the war. S&W typically serial numbered frames during frame manufacture for future assembly, and the S-series frames were then necessarily of postwar manufacture.
This explanation of your thinking makes it clear that we're really just quibbling over what to call it. I never meant to suggest that I believed the OP's gun to be built on a frame "left over" from Victory production before August 1945. I simply suggested that S&W did what you describe in your last post: continue to build Victory frames for a while, which is the simplest term for a 1945/46 M&P frame with a standard lanyard hole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
.....
But that's a little contradictory with Occam's razor and may not be a valid application of it, when applied as you suggest to S&Ws by just considering the frame. Because there is evidence in the form of features rather than assumptions. Plus just considering the frame creates an entire plethora of inconsistencies, because there would be no distinctions between many, many S&W models......
Hondo, while I appreciate your point, I believe in this case it is acceptable to focus solely on the frame, since the model is not in dispute and the entire discussion seems to be about people taking issue with how I label the frame of the OP's gun. Since this is just a matter of practical nomenclature, conclusions from other features you allude to as to the gun as a whole are not precluded or affected.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #18  
Old 03-06-2016, 01:05 AM
Toyman's Avatar
Toyman Toyman is offline
SWCA Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Henderson,Nevada
Posts: 2,615
Likes: 1,864
Liked 9,032 Times in 1,282 Posts
Default

This is serial S 986841 shipped March 1948 per Roy not as nice as original posters. No lanyard hole.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-06-2016, 01:11 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Absalom,

Agreed. There's no argument on what it is whatever we call it, it's a none too common and unique early model. And anything postulated is as fair as anything else, at least till we learn more.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 03-06-2016 at 11:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-06-2016, 08:29 AM
gjamison's Avatar
gjamison gjamison is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 2,605
Likes: 266
Liked 2,564 Times in 465 Posts
Default

Thank you all for the education.

Not to add more fuel to the fire but don't we have 38/44 transition models? Why can't this be considered a .38 M&P Postwar transition model?

Thanks again everyone!
__________________
George Jamison
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-06-2016, 09:41 AM
beagleye's Avatar
beagleye beagleye is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,360
Likes: 4,008
Liked 2,528 Times in 733 Posts
Default

Someone help me here-

I thought "transitional" was specifically attached to the post war guns, N or K frame, which were produced with any of these three pre war characteristics, being long action, single line address, and lerk.

Is that false? That will be a hard habit to break. It always seemed like a very good and useful term. With that definition, this gun is easily that, meeting all three criteria.

To the OP- I am pretty sure I watched that one sell and almost bid on it. Good snag!! The grips are uber cool.

Last edited by beagleye; 03-06-2016 at 09:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #22  
Old 03-06-2016, 01:32 PM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by beagleye View Post
....
I thought "transitional" was specifically attached to the post war guns, N or K frame, which were produced with any of these three pre war characteristics, being long action, single line address, and lerk.

Is that false? That will be a hard habit to break. It always seemed like a very good and useful term......
When it comes to collector terminology, using words like "false" (or "correct") doesn't really capture the spirit of the discussion. It's all about the most useful application of the term.

Your definition is certainly used by quite a few people. Personally, while I have no interest in N frames and can't speak to those, for M&P's I find it a bit too broad to be very helpful; I prefer to limit the label "transitional" to "fish with legs" like the OP's gun that truly have features and parts from two consecutive iterations of a model.

One can have endless fun nit-picking terminology. Take the long action and single line address. People keep calling them "pre-war" features. Why? They're not. They are pre-1948 features. The war has nothing to do with them. If you call them the latter, much of the "transitional" rationale for the S-series goes away.

But as Hondo said above, there is no S&W police, and if the term works for you, it is certainly not false.

Last edited by Absalom; 03-06-2016 at 02:42 PM. Reason: Grammar
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-06-2016, 01:50 PM
blazermark's Avatar
blazermark blazermark is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North of the ATL
Posts: 41
Likes: 77
Liked 39 Times in 17 Posts
Default

hmm.. nice one OP, and an interesting discussion, call/classify what make sense to you they are S numbered M&P's and I like 'em..

Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Like Post:
  #24  
Old 03-06-2016, 05:12 PM
JSR III's Avatar
JSR III JSR III is offline
SWCA Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 9,575
Likes: 3,695
Liked 8,924 Times in 3,545 Posts
Default

Quote:
James - are you sure of that? I have that one recorded as shipping on September 9, 1947. That fits perfectly with numerous other revolvers in the same serial range. Would you check your letter and let me know? If my database is incorrect, I want to amend it.
Jack, either fat fingers or bad eyes but good catch. You are correct, 9/9/1947
__________________
James Redfield
LM #497
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #25  
Old 03-06-2016, 11:19 PM
JP@AK's Avatar
JP@AK JP@AK is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 5,114
Liked 18,984 Times in 6,864 Posts
Default

Thank you, James!
__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-06-2016, 11:35 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

gjamison, beagleye and Absalom,

I agree, it's clearly a "transistional". Usually this refers to a post war model with pre war parts which aptly describes N and I frames because they had no regular production during the war.

As you point out Absalom, this doesn't really apply to K frame M&Ps (.38 Special or S&W cartridge) which were obviously produced all thru the war and mostly for the war.

That's why in my post #11 I referred to it this way:

"Post SV Com'l/pre short action" accurately describes your M&P but is there a more succinctly descriptive term than "War-time transitional"?

That's the kind of transistional model you have IMHO George. A "War-time transitional". It's a transistion from the wartime model, with war period features; not a transistion from a pre war model with pre war features.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 03-06-2016 at 11:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-07-2016, 01:44 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjamison View Post
Thank you all for the education.

Not to add more fuel to the fire but don't we have 38/44 transition models? Why can't this be considered a .38 M&P Postwar transition model?

Thanks again everyone!
Yes, we have transistionals for all models. They are pretty straight forward; how they were first configured post war, in their transistion from how they were configuered before the war.

The K frames transistioned from their military configuration during the war to their commercial configuration after the war.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-07-2016, 09:15 AM
JSR III's Avatar
JSR III JSR III is offline
SWCA Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 9,575
Likes: 3,695
Liked 8,924 Times in 3,545 Posts
Default

Perhaps we could call them post war transitional veterans children since many of their parents served in the war.....
__________________
James Redfield
LM #497
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-07-2016, 09:23 AM
JSR III's Avatar
JSR III JSR III is offline
SWCA Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 9,575
Likes: 3,695
Liked 8,924 Times in 3,545 Posts
Default

As someone also mentioned, there are the .38/44's that can really confuse the new S&W collector. I own S 69847 (8/46) and S 67706 (8/46) an OD and a HD. These really confused the heck out of me when I was trying to understand the M&P's with numbers like S 955509 from 1947 and then 38/44's with numbers like S 69847 and S 67706 shipped a year later.

I have been doing this for 45 years and I still learn every day. Imagine what it must be like just starting out trying to understand S&W's with all of the little nuances with serial numbers and shipping dates.
__________________
James Redfield
LM #497

Last edited by JSR III; 03-07-2016 at 01:02 PM. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #30  
Old 03-07-2016, 11:12 AM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,948 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

" Imagine what it must be like just starting out trying to understand S&W's will all of the little nuances with serial numbers and shipping dates."
That's why GCA-68 requires unique alphanumeric SNs for each gun, as for many years SNs were duplicated among different product lines from the same manufacturer, as well as among different manufacturers. One of the most puzzling S&W SN conundrums for me is why M&Ps in .32-20 were numbered in a separate series from those chambered in .38 Special. This leads to the ridiculous situation that there were actually two different M&Ps having identical SNs up until about SN 144000.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #31  
Old 03-07-2016, 07:11 PM
Skeetr57 Skeetr57 is offline
SWCA Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Inman, SC USA
Posts: 1,303
Likes: 95
Liked 649 Times in 372 Posts
Default

Actually, until 1968, guns weren't required to have any serial numbers by law. Remington used the same serial numbers at least three times on their .41 O/U derringer over the years, and I understand that they did the same on other guns. Many cheaper guns like the Winchester M67 that was my first rifle had no SN at all.
__________________
Tom
1560
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-07-2016, 07:23 PM
amazingflapjack amazingflapjack is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 5,947
Likes: 24,644
Liked 6,195 Times in 2,575 Posts
Default

Recently got a 5 inch like that-1946-and man the trigger on it is velvet-great gun-enjoy!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-07-2016, 11:52 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,685
Likes: 2,473
Liked 5,898 Times in 1,224 Posts
Default

I picked this up a few weeks ago (S 9053xx). It came to me with slightly newer PCs.

Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #34  
Old 07-30-2016, 09:16 PM
Targets Guy's Avatar
Targets Guy Targets Guy is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Southwest Iowa
Posts: 10,867
Likes: 2,688
Liked 18,968 Times in 5,588 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman View Post
This is serial S 986841 shipped March 1948 per Roy not as nice as original posters. No lanyard hole.
Glad I read this thread and this post. I just purchased S/N S976xxx. Nice to know it is a 1948. I'll check for a plugged hole but doubt it has one.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-30-2016, 10:54 PM
JP@AK's Avatar
JP@AK JP@AK is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 5,114
Liked 18,984 Times in 6,864 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Targets Guy View Post
I'll check for a plugged hole but doubt it has one.
Did you read post #10 in this thread?
__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-30-2016, 10:57 PM
Targets Guy's Avatar
Targets Guy Targets Guy is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Southwest Iowa
Posts: 10,867
Likes: 2,688
Liked 18,968 Times in 5,588 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP@AK View Post
Did you read post #10 in this thread?
Yep. That's why I said I doubt there is one. It would make the gun more interesting - yes?
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-30-2016, 11:07 PM
JP@AK's Avatar
JP@AK JP@AK is offline
US Veteran
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 5,114
Liked 18,984 Times in 6,864 Posts
Default

Sure. But it is highly unlikely . . .
__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #38  
Old 07-31-2016, 08:21 AM
gjamison's Avatar
gjamison gjamison is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 2,605
Likes: 266
Liked 2,564 Times in 465 Posts
Default

This gun has turned out to be my favorite purchase of 2016 so far. I normally wouldn't shoot a gun like this but I have taken it to the range several time this summer. Great old gun!!!!
__________________
George Jamison
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #39  
Old 07-31-2016, 11:50 AM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Targets Guy View Post
Yep. That's why I said I doubt there is one. It would make the gun more interesting - yes?
S&W was shipping revolvers to agency customers with lanyard swivels at all times as a special request feature; I've seen specimen from as late as the 1970s. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if there are some true commercial S-prefix M&P's with swivels. But finding one of these then with the professionally plugged and nicely finished butt surface (like on the immediate post-war frames) would indeed be very unlikely; although, as with all things S&W ....
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #40  
Old 07-31-2016, 02:18 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
Member
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,685
Likes: 2,473
Liked 5,898 Times in 1,224 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
S&W was shipping revolvers to agency customers with lanyard swivels at all times as a special request feature; I've seen specimen from as late as the 1970s. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if there are some true commercial S-prefix M&P's with swivels. But finding one of these then with the professionally plugged and nicely finished butt surface (like on the immediate post-war frames) would indeed be very unlikely; although, as with all things S&W ....
The latest S&W revolvers that I've seen with lanyard rings were 6" Model 66s that went to the Rhode Island State Police in the 1970s.

Just to throw another wrench into the works, the C series guns started appearing circa 1948. I have C 64xxx that went to the Policia Nacional in Colombia South America in that year. So, the the SV & S didn't last very long.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #41  
Old 07-31-2016, 02:44 PM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
.38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix.... .38 Military & Police early postwar S prefix....  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by policerevolvercollector View Post
.....
Just to throw another wrench into the works, the C series guns started appearing circa 1948. I have C 64xxx that went to the Policia Nacional in Colombia South America in that year. So, the the SV & S didn't last very long.
The SV and then S prefix just continued the numerical V sequence up to 999,999; then the C prefix started in 1948 at about, but not exactly the time when the new short action was introduced; that actually began in the high S-numbers. That has led us having some (a bit esoteric, but fun) discussions over whether an S-prefix gun should be properly called a pre-Model 10 if it has the new action or whether that term should be limited to C-prefix guns. Then one could look at the elimination of the MADE IN USA stamp in favor of the four-line, which also occurred around then, but not exactly concurrent with any of the other changes.

As with many things S&W, neat cut-offs are not a thing here .
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Question about S Prefix Military and Police Revolvers merl67 S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 10 05-13-2015 11:44 PM
What font was used on Postwar M & P, Military & Police barrel barrels ? Aimin41 S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 0 04-30-2014 01:12 AM
.38 Military & Police S prefix 6" JP@AK S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 16 03-30-2014 12:41 PM
.38 MILITARY & POLICE (POSTWAR) “PRE-MODEL 10” Goliad S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 6 03-15-2013 06:19 PM
Military & Police C prefix Airedale S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 3 11-22-2011 11:51 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:53 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)