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03-06-2016, 10:59 PM
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Four Inch Barreled Pre-27's - Photo and Info Thread
I know that in the 1950's the "Pre-27" 357's were not cataloged with a 4" barrel (the 4" barrel was generally saved for the Highway Patrolman and the Combat Magnum)... BUT there were some Pre-27s that were special ordered with a 4" tube (I guess that extra 1/2" made a big difference  ). I'd love to see how many 4" pre-27s we can account for here on this forum - please post your photos (along with any info you may have) of/on this less common barrel length.
Here is a 4"er from my collection (BTW - it shipped in a box for a 3.5" gun - with a black grease pencil "4" written over the "3 1/2" on the box end).
Early Factory Letter (edited to remove name/address details):
[UPDATED April 4, 2024] Bringing the summary to the top of this thread - Information so far:
Seventeen post war 4" pre-27's posted in this thread (4 invoice only), of which eight shipped to H.H. Harris on April 22, 1957:
SN S103689 Shipped February, 1954
SN S164615 Shipped November 9, 1956, H.H. Harris part of 8 unit shipment
SN S164375 Shipped November 9, 1956, H.H. Harris part of 8 unit shipment
SN S164145 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris
SN S164755 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 24
SN S164959 Shipped February 1957 (originally shipped as a blue gun - currently nickel plated)
SN S164945 Shipped ___________, ______________
SN S164155 Shipped April 5, 1957, H.H. Harris, 19 units in this shipment
SN S164753 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S164758 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S164775 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S164969 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S167844 Shipped ___________, ______________
SN S167847 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S168244 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S168849 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
SN S168853 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris, 8 units in this shipment
Thanks for letting me share,
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Last edited by RKmesa; 04-04-2024 at 10:24 AM.
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03-06-2016, 11:30 PM
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Ahhhh, that's a really nice "357" Magnum. I think the older bluing is just magnificent, and yours is especially beautiful. Thanks so much for sharing this beauty.
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03-06-2016, 11:42 PM
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I think it should have been a std. barrel length. Elmer Keith thought that a four-inch barrel should be minimum in a .357, saying that he thought the 3.5-inch bbl. deformed bullet bases with lead bullets.
I doubt that, although the bullet alloy might make a difference. A gas-check bullet would in any case be preferred.
I've never liked the 3.5-inch barrel. My M-27 and pre-M-27 both had six and 6.5-inch barrels, and I had a Five-incher. In that frame size, I like the six-inch barrel best.
Chas. Askins had a .357 with four-inch bbl. and a humpback hammer. He showed it in some of his books and articles.
RK, there's a half-inch difference in a 3.5-inch and a four-inch bbl., not a quarter inch. (Yeah, I know the factory sometimes cut a barrel a bit short.) And I think it does matter. The powder used does matter, but I do prefer the four inch as a min. bbl. on the N-frame.
However, some guns with three-inch barrel on smaller frames make sense, like the M-65. The Winchester 145 grain Silvertip cracks 1200 FPS in a three-inch bbl. and has a very solid track record as a defensive round.
Last edited by Texas Star; 03-07-2016 at 12:30 AM.
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03-07-2016, 12:42 AM
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There's an interesting sidelight here. When gun writer Geoffrey Boothroyd advised author Ian Fleming on James Bond's guns, he suggested a Centennial Airweight for an on-person gun, with a M-27 replacing the Colt .45 under the dash of Bond's Bentley. He mentioned the available barrel lengths, and I know from personal correspondence that he wanted that gun to have a six or 6.5-inch bbl.
Fleming got the guns confused and referred to the Centennial as a "brutal, stumpy" revolver. That could apply to the Centennial, but I think Fleming was thinking of the 3.5-inch barreled M-27 when he typed that.
Ultimately, Fleming preferred small autos for concealed use, knowing how vital concealment was, based on his own Intelligence background. So, Bond lost the Centennial on Crab Key in, "Dr. No" and carried a Walther PPK. I don't think the .357 ever came up again.
Last edited by Texas Star; 03-07-2016 at 12:47 AM.
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03-07-2016, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star
RK, there's a half-inch difference in a 3.5-inch and a four-inch bbl., not a quarter inch. (Yeah, I know the factory sometimes cut a barrel a bit short.)
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Whoops  As a CPA, I know better than to do math in my head... now where is my calculator so that I can correct the initial post... 
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03-07-2016, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa
... (BTW - it shipped in a box for a 3.5" gun - with a black grease pencil "4" written over the "3 1/2" on the box end). ...
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Sounds like someone put out minimal effort that day!
I like those brief factory letters. 
Edited to add:
It's interesting that the letter doesn't mention the stocks it shipped with. Do those have the serial number? I imagine it could have been ordered with targets(?) What do the box say?
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Last edited by Jack Flash; 03-07-2016 at 12:12 PM.
Reason: Add stock question
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03-07-2016, 09:37 AM
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Richard, I don't have a pre 27 4", however I do have a NR 4" 357 Magnum that shipped to Lou Eppinger sporting goods in Detroit ( my birth town ) in 1940. Serial #60203. the grips are Kieth Brown Ropers.
Bill
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03-07-2016, 09:39 AM
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That thing is , as some say down here in Louisiana, finer than frog fur. I love the 3.5" the best but a 4" pre 27 or early 27 is indeed a rare find and quite a treasure.
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03-07-2016, 10:23 AM
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Richard that is a Very interesting "Pre 27",
IIRC April 1957 is fairly late for 5 screw "Pre" models ,
The person that special ordered that gun IMO had to be fairly persnickety when the 4" Highway Patrolman (introduced in 1954) and 4" Combat Magnum (Introduced in 1955) were (at that point) probably fairly easy to acquire .
Last edited by Engine49guy; 03-07-2016 at 04:12 PM.
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03-07-2016, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Flash
It's interesting that the letter doesn't mention the stocks it shipped with. Do those have the serial number? I imagine it could have been ordered with targets(?) What do the box say?
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I just checked, and although the magnas fit like they were made for the gun, they do not number to the gun (close...). So you are correct, it could have shipped with targets - maybe even smooth rosewood targets - now that would be nice.
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03-07-2016, 03:59 PM
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Richard:
I've posted this before on the Forum. Picked it up last year. It
is a very accurate shooter. I think it was a working gun as
evidenced by the holster wear on the muzzle and top part of
the right side of the frame near the barrel pin. It is all original.
I also expressed an interest to find out approximately how
many of these pre-27 variants were produced to find out just
how scarce they are. Apparently the S&W factory didn't keep
records of how many of each model they made. You can add
mine plus the others it shipped with to your total. Good luck!
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03-07-2016, 04:12 PM
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Took it out last week and shot it. I used Black Hills 158 grain
CNL Cowboy loads at 7 yards with a light wind. I was impressed.
I think I will keep it.
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03-07-2016, 05:07 PM
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Another pre-pre 27 in 4". Registered Magnum shipped to FBI Agent Arlin Jones, Pittsburg office, Aug. 8, 1939. This has been posted before.
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03-07-2016, 11:38 PM
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Richard
I found a 4 inch 5 screw for a friend of mine he lives in MT. It was a special order gun.
It was owned by a member of the forum. At the time he wanted it more that I did.
So I made arrangement's for him to get it.
I cann't remember how many were on the factory letter I think it was 4.
it shipped in 53 or 54
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03-07-2016, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowriderfxr
That thing is , as some say down here in Louisiana, finer than frog fur. I love the 3.5" the best but a 4" pre 27 or early 27 is indeed a rare find and quite a treasure.
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This for me as well !! The 3 1/2" just looks and shoots like
one bad Hombre.
If i had my choice the 4" would be next in line. Darn near
the perfect N-Frame Magnum.
That is an exceptional handgun you have in that 4" beauty
and a rare bird indeed. Love it !!
Chuck
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03-08-2016, 12:32 AM
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Texas Star
Elmer Keith thought that a four-inch barrel should be minimum in a .357, saying that he thought the 3.5-inch bbl. deformed bullet bases with lead bullets.I doubt that, although the bullet alloy might make a difference. A gas-check bullet would in any case be preferred.
I've wondered about that statement of Elmer's for many years. Ever since I came across it in "Sixguns" some fourteen years ago.
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03-08-2016, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa
So you are correct, it could have shipped with targets - maybe even smooth rosewood targets - now that would be nice. |
Would it fit in the box with target grips? I seem to remember that the older boxes, with the metal support strips, had 5 of the round "doohickeys" sections if they were used for target grips and 4 for magnas.
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03-08-2016, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boykinlp
Would it fit in the box with target grips? I seem to remember that the older boxes, with the metal support strips, had 5 of the round "doohickeys" sections if they were used for target grips and 4 for magnas.
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I think that all my 3.5" pre-27 gold boxes have the 5 prong metal corner supports. For illustration, the 3.5" guns with target grips fit...
...and it looks like there is probably room for the extra 1/2"? I'll have to put some target shoes on the 4" and try it sometime.
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Last edited by RKmesa; 03-08-2016 at 10:44 AM.
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03-08-2016, 06:57 PM
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I have seen photos of boxed revolvers shipped with the target stocks removed, wrapped in brown tissue or packing paper and put in the box corner above the barrel.
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03-10-2016, 01:40 AM
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Other than the 4" post war pre-27s posted above, I searched the Forum and found this one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by snw19_357
I know there were some (at least 24) 5-screw "pre-27"s made with 4" barrels too.
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Source: Are There Very Many M27 w/ 4 inch Barrels?
After trying several different searches, I really could not find many others referenced in the forum...  Maybe there aren't as many as I thought.
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03-10-2016, 08:31 AM
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Pre 27 4" Nov 1956
Here's mine. S164375 Only have a few photos. Stocks are not matching, later numbered. Haven't lettered it yet.
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Last edited by bulldog06; 03-11-2016 at 08:24 AM.
Reason: added serial number
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03-10-2016, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boykinlp
Would it fit in the box with target grips?
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Yup - it fits. Here's a quick phone photo of of the gun in its box with a set of KB smooth targets on it.
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Last edited by RKmesa; 03-10-2016 at 11:02 AM.
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03-10-2016, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldog06
Here's mine. Only have a few photos. Stocks are not matching, later numbered. Haven't lettered it yet.
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Doesn't anyone ever shoot any of these beautiful Smiths??????? They all look so pristine.
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03-10-2016, 06:16 PM
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This one is a safe queen
I have a 4" 27-2 also a queen, but do shoot some 4" 28's, and some 3.5" pre- and 27-2's.
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03-10-2016, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldog06
Here's mine. Only have a few photos. Stocks are not matching, later numbered. Haven't lettered it yet.
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Mike:
That is a beauty. Can you share the SN range?
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03-11-2016, 08:26 AM
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added serial number to original post
Richard,
Here it is, S164375, November 1956.
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03-11-2016, 09:51 AM
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Summary... so far
Four post war pre-27's posted in this thread:
SN S164155 Shipped April 5, 1957
SN S164375 Shipped November 1956
SN S164755 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 24
SN S164775 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 8
Hopefully a few more will be posted.
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Last edited by RKmesa; 03-11-2016 at 06:58 PM.
Reason: Corrected 164775 info to conform with letter
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03-11-2016, 10:36 AM
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Great, another pre 27 barrel length I need to find.
And I thought finding 5", 6", 6.5", and 8 3/8" nickel pre 27's was hard!
I wonder if there were any 4" nickel pre 27's??
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03-12-2016, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1blindref
I wonder if there were any 4" nickel pre 27's??
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I don't believe that I have ever seen a 4" nickel pre-27. I would love for you to find one. When you do - please post the info here. I would love to see a thread where you post your other nickel pre-27's (I have a couple of 3.5"ers and an 8.375" one).
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03-12-2016, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa
Four post war pre-27's posted in this thread:
SN S164155 Shipped April 5, 1957
SN S164375 Shipped November 1956
SN S164755 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 24
SN S164775 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 8
Hopefully a few more will be posted. |
Interesting they all have S-164 serials that end in the number 5.
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08-06-2016, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa
Four post war pre-27's posted in this thread:
SN S164155 Shipped April 5, 1957
SN S164375 Shipped November 1956
SN S164755 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 24
SN S164775 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 8
Hopefully a few more will be posted. |
Add one more to your list. According to Mr. Jinks, shipped from factory in February, 1954. # S 103689. Correct grips, 4" barrel.
Last edited by PMac; 08-06-2016 at 07:04 AM.
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08-06-2016, 08:43 AM
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Right in the middle of that S164xxx range of special order barrel lengths is my 6.5" example...S164278 shipped May 17, 1957. I wish I had a 4" version. Really neat.
But with all the comments about a 3.5" barrel vs a 4" now I have to chrono both side by side.
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08-06-2016, 10:01 AM
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I have always wondered why the boxes never fit right . Always alittle too narrow for me.......Slowly hammer rubbing that soft cardboard and usually my splits on these beautiful gold box eras end up this way.
This is a great post with many beautiful guns. Thanks Richard for a great thought on this. Blessings, Bill
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08-07-2016, 07:11 PM
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Oh yes,,,if you look at that beautiful gun in the box ,,,you can see how the hammer just rubs that poor box and pushes it out..... like I was talking about.... I guess you have to store them with the gun in the box. Anyone have any other thoughts on this. I would love to see that remedy too. Blessings, Bill
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04-13-2019, 11:52 PM
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From another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal tom
I have one of the I believe 12 of that configuration shipped to H H Harris Co. special ordered with the 4" barrel. Mine was shipped April 22, 1957 ser# S164758. I found it in one of my local shops mismarked as a 3.5" and my friend who worked there at the time argued with me when I told him it was a 4 inch gun because they didn't make one in 4 inch. Guess they didn't own a ruler!!!
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Updated Summary:
Seven post war 4" pre-27's posted in this thread:
SN S103689 Shipped February, 1954
SN S164145 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris
SN S164155 Shipped April 5, 1957
SN S164375 Shipped November 9, 1956 to H.H. Harris part of 8 unit shipment
SN S164753 Shipped April 22, 1957 to H.H. Harris, 5 units in this shipment
SN S164755 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 24
SN S164758 Shipped April 22, 1957, H. H. Harris, believed to be one of 12
SN S164775 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 8
Hopefully a few more will be posted.
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Last edited by RKmesa; 11-07-2019 at 01:32 AM.
Reason: Updated for KSK, Bulldog, and bwade's posts below
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04-14-2019, 08:52 AM
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S164375 update
Richard,
thanks for the reminder. I recently lettered S164375.
It shipped Nov 9, 1956 to H.H. Harris Co, Chicago ILL as part of 8 units of the model in 4" configuration at $73.77 each.
Mike
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04-14-2019, 10:56 AM
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4 inch Pre-27
4 inch Pre-27, S/N S164753, shipped 4/22/57 to H.H. Harris. There were 5 units in this shipment. Although the letter lists the the grips as being Target style, the factory invoice indicates the gun originally shipped with standard Magna grips.
Last edited by KSK; 01-21-2020 at 12:52 AM.
Reason: Grip style correction...
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410bore, Art66, bracebeemer, LEO918, LPD256, ME94, mh51, mick27, murdock23, Nedroe, RKmesa, rubiranch, shorty40, slight_turn_line_69 |
11-05-2019, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa
Hopefully a few more will be posted.
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[url=https://postimages.org/] 
I wonder where mine fits in.
I'll add the serial number and letter soon.
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11-06-2019, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa
I just checked, and although the magnas fit like they were made for the gun, they do not number to the gun (close...). So you are correct, it could have shipped with targets - maybe even smooth rosewood targets - now that would be nice. |
I've read a few times that the numbers might be a few off if they were working on more than one gun at a time, like a special order of a few of the same guns.
Do you think your's might be the case? And even thought the numbers don't match they may still be the original stocks that came on your gun??
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11-06-2019, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubiranch
I've read a few times that the numbers might be a few off if they were working on more than one gun at a time, like a special order of a few of the same guns.
Do you think your's might be the case? And even thought the numbers don't match they may still be the original stocks that came on your gun??
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I know that serial numbers on the early target grips (the few that had SNs) did not always match the frame, but for guns that shipped with magnas, I am only aware of such a situation with the Model 520 in the late 1970s or early 1980s. BUT with S&W you never know. Also, stock switching could have happened at the dealer as well...
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11-06-2019, 09:51 PM
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I have S164145 shipped to H.H. Harris February 25, 1957 to replace the duplicated serial numbered 3.5" shipped three weeks before to H.H. Harris in error.
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11-09-2019, 05:00 PM
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Nice
Nice group ! I really like these pistols.. nice .50 cal spotter/tracer round. Gonna have to see ifg I have one of those inmy box.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojave30cal
Took it out last week and shot it. I used Black Hills 158 grain
CNL Cowboy loads at 7 yards with a light wind. I was impressed.
I think I will keep it. |
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11-14-2019, 09:18 PM
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S168244 Shipped April 22, 1957 to H.H. Harris Company.
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11-15-2019, 12:39 AM
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With Kenny's post above here's an Updated Summary:
Nine post war 4" pre-27's posted in this thread, of which 4 shipped to H.H. Harris on April 22, 1957:
SN S103689 Shipped February, 1954
SN S164145 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris
SN S164155 Shipped April 5, 1957
SN S164375 Shipped November 9, 1956 to H.H. Harris part of 8 unit shipment
SN S164753 Shipped April 22, 1957 to H.H. Harris, 5 units in this shipment
SN S164755 Shipped February 25, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 24
SN S164758 Shipped April 22, 1957, H. H. Harris, believed to be one of 12
SN S164775 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris order for 8
SN S168244 Shipped April 22, 1957, H.H. Harris Company
Hopefully a few more will be posted.
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11-15-2019, 10:59 AM
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It looks like all 5 shipped on April 22nd are present and accounted for.
Did every 4" pre-27 go to H.H. Harris?? 
I'm guessing someone added the red insert to the ramp front sight after they purchased it.
Mine also has a target hammer and trigger. Non of what were mentioned in "the letter". 
So for me..... Its kind of like someone ordering a base 1969 Mach I and adding the rear window slats, spoilers and Magnum 500 wheels.
Some very nice factory add-on accessories.
I might even look for a nice set of diamond Target stocks for it too and make it the only 4" pre-27 3-T. 
I'm sure this nauseates the purists.
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Last edited by rubiranch; 11-15-2019 at 11:19 AM.
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11-15-2019, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubiranch
It looks like all 5 shipped on April 22nd are present and accounted for.
Did every 4" pre-27 go to H.H. Harris??
I'm guessing someone added the red insert to the ramp front sight after they purchased it.
Mine also has a target hammer and trigger. Non of what were mentioned in "the letter".
So for me..... Its kind of like someone ordering a base 1969 Mach I and adding the rear window slats, spoilers and Magnum 500 wheels.
Some very nice factory add-on accessories.
I might even look for a nice set of diamond Target stocks for it too and make it the only 4" pre-27 3-T.
I'm sure this nauseates the purists. |
If you buy a green Mach 1 and paint it red, that’s a violation. As far as I’m concerned, as long as you don’t nickel or hard chrome your 27, you haven’t done anything that can’t be reversed to what some would call “pure”. It’s a beautiful gun. I’m very happy for you. And a little jealous....
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11-15-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPD256
If you buy a green Mach 1 and paint it red, that’s a violation. As far as I’m concerned, as long as you don’t nickel or hard chrome your 27, you haven’t done anything that can’t be reversed to what some would call “pure”. It’s a beautiful gun. I’m very happy for you. And a little jealous....
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I totally agree with you and thank you.
The red insert is the only thing that's not reversible and I'm OK with that.
A very good friend made it possible for me to even get this gun and I'm very grateful for all of his help. Without his help I wouldn't have it today.
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11-19-2019, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubiranch
I totally agree with you and thank you.
The red insert is the only thing that's not reversible and I'm OK with that.
A very good friend made it possible for me to even get this gun and I'm very grateful for all of his help. Without his help I wouldn't have it today.
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I visited with your friend and his Mom in Tulsa. Very nice people. I asked him to give you my regards when he saw you. But he may know me by my name, not LPD256.
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11-19-2019, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPD256
I visited with your friend and his Mom in Tulsa. Very nice people. I asked him to give you my regards when he saw you. But he may know me by my name, not LPD256.
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I'll be seeing him Monday. I'm "unloading" another gun.
He is a good guy for sure.
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11-28-2019, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPD256
If you buy a green Mach 1 and paint it red, that’s a violation. As far as I’m concerned, as long as you don’t nickel or hard chrome your 27, you haven’t done anything that can’t be reversed to what some would call “pure”. It’s a beautiful gun. I’m very happy for you. And a little jealous....
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Mine has been altered since it left the factory.
Its had a red insert added to the ramp front sight, a target hammer and a target trigger so I'm going to find me a nice set of Diamond Targets to finish it off.
Maybe a W/O rear sight too.
The Diamond Magnas are not numbered, just era correct.
Then I'll have the only 3-T 4" pre-27.
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