How many new people turn up asking about guns with defaced serial numbers?

I still say there's only one reason why a commercially made, civilian model gun would have its serial removed...

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No life story has happy end.

Sounds like there's a story to be told...

Russ

It's also amazing that those who grind off the SN on the butt usually forget to remove the SNs stamped in other locations.

Spot on either the gun was/is stolen or it was used in the commission of some crime or most likely both. A man I worked with asked me could I clean up two revolvers he got when his dad passed away. They were a Python and a Spanish copy of a Smith (talk about opposites). Got the Spanish one cleaned up and working properly and turned to the Python Started cleaning it up it was a beautiful gun under the crud. I started looking for the serial number couldn't find it. not being a Colt man thought I was over looking it turned to the internet to find out where it was supposed to be. It is supposed to be on the frame under the crane a little more cleaning this spot revealed where it once was someone had ground it off and cold blued the spot. I wiped the Python down very good took the guns back to him and advised him of the legal issues don't know what he did with it just glad I didn't get pulled over with them . I learned a valuable lesson that day never take possession of any gun without making sure the serial number is present.

I don't know, I can see how the serial # could get scratched up sliding on asphalt or when pounding in nails, which as I understand would be defacing which is of course illegal.

But yeah, grinding it down to the point it is not legible or removing and refinishing where it had been, is pretty much a ruined gun and would make me nervous enough to leave the room.

Guns have serial numbers?

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Jorge

There's actually two. Second involves a Dremel tool and too much time on hand . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

never mind

Is not the first thing you look for on when examining a gun someone hands you? First thing I do at a gun show. Best.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Okay serious question. Who here has ever been asked by a law enforcement agent or officer, other than an ATF field agent doing audit work, to examine the serial number on their firearm?

I have been pulled over several times while carrying a gun, checked in the field by wildlife troopers and game wardens in half a dozen states, and shot alongside local PD and highway patrolmen at the range and never ever had the subject of serial numbers come up.

I'm not saying it ain't going to be serious if you get caught but I also don't feel like it's a crime that LE ever gets up and heads out on shift to look for or track down. More of an extra in case there's a technicality keeping the court from locking up the guy for the 3 pounds of heroin he was caught with they can get him on thw old serial number rap.

If an LEO examines your weapon for any reason and the serial number has been removed, you will be arrested and prosecuted. Based on my experience there is no other outcome.

30 years. I looked at/for the serial number on every gun I met . . .

(three pounds of heroin is a whole lot of heroin)

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Well, yes, but so what?

The likelihood that the person asking the forum about the gun had anything to do with the removal is pretty much zero. In most states, private sales are still unregulated and unreported and do not go through an FFL, so any such gun (most that I remember having popped up here were several decades old) could have changed hands several times. And on guns with multiple stampings of the serial like older S&W's, even many dealers don't know that technically only the butt number is legally relevant. So even in those states like here in Oregon where every gun, including private sales, gets run through NCIC, if you run the serial and it clears, nobody is any the wiser, because to end up in any database, the owner has to remember the serial number when the police take his report, and I bet many gun owners in the US don't have a record of their serials if the gun has been in the family a while. So quite a few S&W gun with missing butt numbers likely change hands "legally" multiple times even through dealers because their serial didn't end up in the database and the FBI processing the query has no idea that the dealer submitting it took the number off the cylinder or barrel flat.

So we're back to how horrible a crime it is to find a "sanitized" collectible among deceased Uncle Bob's possessions and not run to the police or BATFE with it. And I'm not getting back into that debate ....

My point is that there seems to be a lot of guns out there with obliterated serials.

As for going to jail, yeah, I suppose one could be arrested but an otherwise law abiding citizen would likely have zero fear of any prosecution. No prosecutor would take Joe Citizen to trial over something so trivial not to mention a conviction would be tough as intent would be near impossible to demonstrate.

I have known two guys who had guns with the serials removed. Both bought them unaware of the situation. One took the gun to the PD to ask what could be done about it and the cop at the desk confiscated the gun. End of story.

Wonder if the cop still has it?

The second guy had the gun for years and forgot about the missing serial until he took it to a gunsmith for some work and the smith called the cops who confiscated the pistol.

If some gang banger gets caught with such a gun I think prosecution is much more likely.

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No life story has happy end.

===================================

So the two buddies that had there guns confiscated were not prosecuted or otherwise held accountable?

I agree about this being a trivial yet still hugely important issue.

The only gun I have seen sans it's serial numbers was a Perazzi shotgun. Guy wanted to sell it to me and claimed he got it at a yard sale. I still don't own a Perazzi.

Neither of my friends were arrested. In fact they weren't even questioned about the guns. Cop took the first one saying "You can't own that" and the second got a call from the smith saying the cops came and took the gun. He never heard from them.

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No life story has happy end.

I'd think that in the majority of cases involving some LE agency finding a person in possession of a gun with a removed or mutilated SN, assuming that there was no other crime involved, I'd bet the normal action would be confiscation. If that person had outstanding warrants or was not allowed to have a gun due to some past felony conviction, domestic violence, etc., or used that gun in the commission of a crime, dope possession, etc., then all bets are off. Some DA or BATFE agent could easily throw the book at him.

Ended up in some policeman's collection no doubt. Would have here any way.
Gordy

What type of LEO were you? Just curious as without knowing the law I don't feel like that would be any of your business if I were legally carrying and informed a traffic cop during a routine traffic stop. If I were being booked for something then of course the serial number of any firearms would be recorded, either for evidence or to assure their return at a later time.

All I'm getting at is that I think the odds of anyone who isn't already in deep trouble with the authorities getting busted for a serial number issue is so slim as to be almost a non issue.

Yes!!

All Guns have serial numbers. if they are made before 1968 then its ok. But if they are made after 1968 then they must have serial numbers and scratched off its illegal.

It was pretty much standard procedure at my department that if you discovered a firearm during the commission of a crime, you ran the serial number through NCIC. Now, if it was a traffic stop and the person had a CCW, they received their warning or citation and went on their way.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Welcome to the Forum, Intelf.

Many firearms that were made pre 1968 did not have serial numbers, such as low priced shotguns and .22 rifles. All of the best quality firearms (S&W, Colt, etc) have had serial numbers since their companies began. The removal of the SN from a firearm that had a SN is illegal under Federal and state laws.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

There are many circumstances where a serial number can/should be reviewed without "Hey, gimme that . . ," and CCW has only been legal in Missouri since 2003. In your example, my standard response was along the lines of "Don't show me yours and I won't show you mine." Just a couple of many examples: Searching a car before it gets towed. Collecting evidence during a burglary investigation. Looking at the victim's gun during a SD shooting. It is unfortunate that some are so quick to put a nefarious twist on LE actions.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

True. If the gun originally had a SN which was later removed or mutilated, the age of the gun makes no difference, unless it is a pre-1899 antique. Those are not firearms under GCA-68. Those guns made with no SN (as stated, usually lower-cost .22 rifles and shotguns) in the period prior to GCA-68 are OK and legal. I suppose there may be some different state laws regarding serial numbers.

There are a few guns where the numbers are not readily visible. The 1905 Remington Rolling Block comes to mind, the serial is stamped on the side of the tang, and the buttstock has to be removed to see it. I'm sure that has confused some folks.

I have seen a pistol that had no markings whatever, except for a 4 digit serial number (repeated on all parts) that looked like a pre-war Browning in fit and finish. No make, model, country of origin, caliber, nothing. Too nice to be a Khyber pass knock off and in 9mm Browning long. Still curious about that one. Wonder how that would show up in someone's bound book?

In my time on the streets, I encountered many handguns with defaced/altered/obliterated S/N's. The circumstances however were never an encounter with 'Joe-Average Gunowner'.
The encounters were always deep in the 'hood, dealing with gang-bangers, drug dealers/users. If it was located during the execution of a search warrant, the gun would be sent to the state crime lab in an attempt to have the S/N 'lifted' through chemical means. More times than not, it would be found to be stolen, and that provided another charge on the suspect(s). Our Drug Unit also had a ATF Liaison Agent, and he would often follow-up on these.

Working in an LGS, would occasionally have some estate collections come in, brought in by clueless relatives. Sometimes find an obliterated S/N, in which case the boss would ask them to remove it from the store.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

"No prosecutor would take Joe Citizen to trial over something so trivial..."

I feel certain there are at least some who would take great delight in prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law, for numerous reasons. Does anyone remember the North Carolina - Duke University Nifong case? I'd agree that prosecution for the simple possession of contraband does not require evidence of intent.

You have to "knowingly" possess a firearm with an altered or defaced serial number to be convicted.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

If you wouldn't buy a used vehicle with a "defaced/altered/obliterated S/N" then why would you buy a gun with the same issues? As the old saying goes "You may beat the rap but you ain't going to beat the ride". On a routine traffic stop (I hate that phrase because every stop is different) and even in today's CCW/CHL world, a LE good naturedly asks to see your weapon, excluding wrap around stocks, and the serial number is not on the butt there is a good chance your day/night isn't going to end well. To some the analogy will make sense to some it won't.
Didn't cover all the what if's but you get the drift. hardcase60

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You want me to do what?

"You have to "knowingly" possess a firearm with an altered or defaced serial number to be convicted. "

What that means is that you will need to establish you unknowingly possessed that firearm. That could be a very difficult and expensive task. Lawyers don't work cheaply, and they don't always win. I doubt anyone in the criminal justice system will simply accept your word. Far better to avoid ever getting into such a situation in the first place.

I wouldn't want a defense attorney explaining his fees to me based on that defense. It would be cheaper to use the felony stupid argument.

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You want me to do what?

Defacing a serial # rates right up there with destroying your fingerprints. If it's discovered, it sets off alarms.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

I agree that it's not much of a hill for a stepper, but the fact remains that there is an intent requirement to the law . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Gee, Officer, I didn't know those two bricks of cocaine were in my trunk. Someone else must have put them there. Honest.

Certainly illegal to deface, but I think that simple possession isn't illegal and all that happens is the contraband is confiscated. A prosecutor would likely have to prove the subject was the one who defaced it or at least KNEW it had been done and both would be tough to prove and likely not worth the effort. It is definitely possible for an honest person to buy a gun and not realize the serial is gone. How many new gun owners show up here and have no idea where to find or ID the serial?

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No life story has happy end.

People forget their drugs in rental cars all the time (run a quick search). Are you saying that the attendant who gets stopped going to get gas after the car is returned but before cleaning it is guilty?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Here's a "bunny trail" question along the lines of the "intent" discussion. I have seen, more than once and both cases were 1917s, where an individual bought the gun from an FFL and completed the 4473. The SN had been removed from the butt but was in all the other expected places. The FFL sold the gun using the assembly number in the yoke area rather than the SN; have seen that several times by FFLs even when the sn was on the butt (usually covered by rubber grips). The buyer didn't know any better. . . .and has a receipt from the FFL dealer. Ok, confiscation likely if it comes to light, prosecution and conviction for the buyer seems unlikely. There are other threads discussing petitioning the ATF to issue a new, or validate the existing, sn by approving restamping the butt. Don't know anyone who has actually gone that route but a 1917 seems a case where the gun might not be confiscated and could again be made legal. Anyone tried that solution?

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Serial numbers where not universally required by the Government until the passage of the GCA of 1968. Prior to that serial numbers where used by manufacturers to ID their products but not all guns are serialized. I have a Mongomery Wards .22 rifle I believe was manufactured by JC Higgins that was made prior to 1968 that was not serialized.

Now the serial number on guns I own are not anybodies business except mine. When I post a picture of one of my guns on the web I remove the serial number digitally using photo management software if the serial number happens to be shown in the picture.

"I have a Mongomery Wards .22 rifle I believe was manufactured by JC Higgins..."

JC Higgins was also a brand name. Most of the Wards and Sears firearms were made by Savage-Stevens and Marlin, although a friend had a M54 .30-30 that was made by Winchester.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

+1

If I had cause to disarm you, or inventory your vehicle for impound, or encountered a gun during the execution of a search warrant, the serial # of any firearm involved was recorded and run NCIC. Part of the reason was that by reading it over the air to dispatch for the NCIC a separate record was created of what had passed into my possession. (That's why I can say without fear of contradiction that no firearm taken from a citizen ended up "in my collection"). The other was that on more than one occasion I was able to reunite the legitimate owner with his stolen gun, including the off duty piece of a retired NYPD officer.

But if I had done that with every gun in a car I stopped I'd still be out there. "Man with a gun" in Wyoming is redundant.

And yes, Saxon Pig, I had the same attitude toward defaced or obliterated SNs - like a post turtle they didn't get that way on their own.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

Simple possession is definitely illegal which is why it is contraband and is confiscated. I think "judicially stolen" would be more like it in the many cases of Grandpa's service pistol pilfered after a hitch in combat, but that's the law. Probably all that happens if nothing else illicit was going on.

A knowledgeable friend worked in a pawn shop and was offered a S&W K38 with (most) serials removed. He accepted it, loaned the guy a few bucks, and as soon as he got out the door, called the PD and BATF. The customer had shown actual ID, so it was hard on him. My friend pointed out the remaining serial number location the crooks had missed (Back of the extractor?.) BATF allowed the gun to be renumbered and returned to the owner it was stolen from.

There is a sad case on another board. A good quality production shotgun was handsomely engraved and restocked. Unfortunately, the serial number apparently clashed with the engraver's plans for the pattern, so it went away. Even though the barrel and trigger group were match numbered, the legal receiver number is gone, so the gun is "contraband."

"There is a sad case on another board. A good quality production shotgun was handsomely engraved and restocked. Unfortunately, the serial number apparently clashed with the engraver's plans for the pattern, so it went away. Even though the barrel and trigger group were match numbered, the legal receiver number is gone, so the gun is 'contraband.'"

I held a gunsmithing FFL from '77-'97. At one time during this time period, there a provision in the BATF regs that allowed a gunsmith to re-stamp the serial number on a firearm if during the smith's work it was necessary for the factory SN to be removed. This provision later disappeared, but I don't remember exactly when.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Before the thread gets lost in too many anecdotes, allow me to distill what seems obvious:

1. Having a gun with an obliterated frame serial number in your possession is illegal. No ifs and buts about it.

2. If you knowingly acquire such a gun and pile onto that bad choice by carrying that gun around with you or using it to shoot someone, you're dumb beyond help and deserve any and all trouble coming your way.

3. If you buy a gun online and discover upon receipt that the serial is missing, take it to your local police, or have your transfer dealer call them. If he is smart, he already has. That gun's trail is out of your control, but it is pointing at you, no matter what you do. Do not do anything extremely stupid like starting to break additional laws by trying to ship it back, or trying to blackmail the seller into sending your money back by only threatening to call the cops if he doesn't.

4. Now you could come into possession of such a gun innocently, like discovering that your dear departed dad liberated his WW II service pistol and one evening, after consuming half a bottle of Jim Beam, decided it might be safer to remove the serial number. In such a case, if you just tuck it away in your safe, the chances of ever getting in trouble are about the same as being trampled to death by an escaped circus elephant. But then again, that HAS happened to people, so it's a judgment call.

5. Lastly, and that scenario hasn't come up in this thread yet, but also pops up here regularly and greatly excites some people, is a gun where one or two digits of the butt serial are obscured because someone drilled a lanyard hole, but all other numbers are complete and match. So the serial everywhere is 123456, and the butt shows 12xx56. That's a gun I would buy and sell without worry. There is no evidence whatsoever that BATFE even considers that a defaced serial number in the sense of the law, or has ever shown any interest in the issue.

That's my take on what we can reasonably act upon. The only one who could really set us straight here would be a bona fide BATFE agent.

When I was in gunsmith school we were taught, and verified with BATF that it was okay at the time, that it was okay for a gunsmith to remove the serial during refurbishing as long as it was restamped later. We did it to a pile of surplus Mausers while building custom rifles and were even inspected by BATF at the time and given the okay. I'm sure they would frown on it now, but it wasn't always a huge deal. This all happened way post GCA68 by the way.

During the course of my job as a gunsmith I have been tasked with remarking serial numbers assigned to stolen and obliterated guns. BATF would determine the original serial and give it back to it's owner with a form stating that it was to be remarked with the assigned number. I never dealt with the BATF directly so don't know what's involved but it must be possible to get them to allow the restamping of an obliterated serial.

Hmmmmm......maybe because this is a legal requirement? So, to echo or paraphrase OP/Saxon Pig's comment, there is no legal reason to remove a serial number.

Nobody asks anyone to like the laws in re guns but they exist, sometimes favorably for us, sometimes not. The following is the ATF requirment; there is no gainsaying the requirement, period:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...ation-overview

I don't think the government can copyright statutory and regulatory material but that's ATF's or the DoJ's material. Official, not some random website.

Such naivety gets folks locked up in prison. In my state, possession of a firearm with an altered serial number is a 2nd degree felony and will get you five to fifteen years in lock up. The missing serial number is prima facie evidence that the gun is stolen and knowingly posessing such a gun will lead to an easy conviction. If I had reason for a stop and there was a gun involved I always at least examined it for a serial number.

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Join the NRA today

Does a restamped gun require the owner to have some kind of supporting paperwork?
I have an old Perfected DA that appears to have a restamped serial number on the butt. Matches all other part numbers but is done in a different "font" so to speak. Didn't notice it at first but as my S&W collection grew and my limited knowledge expanded it became obvious that the number was reapplied at some point in time.The font style does not match that found on any of my other S&Ws from the same era.
I've also notice while going through my sales receipts that I have a Regulation Police where the seller used the assembly number, instead of the serial number, when filling out the paperwork. He also reported the caliber as being 32 S&W Long instead of 38 S&W. Again, I didn't notice until much later. This gun was acquired at a gun show from an FFL holder.
I pay more attention now when filling out paperwork.

Joihn