A few years ago this little gem came into my possession. At the time I was looking for a Model 10 .38 Special for both a Classic Pistol Match and to go with my small collection of NZ Police handguns.

More than 15 years after we transitioned from the Model 10 to the Glock 17, second hand versions of the revolver were hard to come by and anything from $750 (NZ) up.

A member of my club committee put up a notice with this Victory Model .38 S&W for sale for $450 ($300 US) including 250 Starline cases and reloading dies. (I recently paid almost $90 for another 100 cases).

As the .38 S&W calibre was issued to NZ Police briefly in the '60's it still fits into my collection.

This is a four screw gun with a pinned barrel and a Pre V (766XXX) serial number. It was a Civilian rather than military gun with a better finish than the lend/lease weapons of WWII.

Loaded with 2.8 grains ADI AP50N behind a 148 gn LHBWC and shot in a 48 round Classic Pistol match it serves me very well.

The holster pictured is the Uncle Mikes Sidekick Duty holster I have posted about elsewhere.

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The four digit serial doesn't seem right for a gun made in the 1940s if not later. Is there a letter prefix to the serial?

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No life story has happy end.

PS: Pretty sure that's actually a 5 screw model.

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No life story has happy end.

Yes, SP, clearly a prewar revolver (note the patent marking on the hammer). I'm pretty sure I can read that it is chambered for the .38 S&W, not the Special. So it must have a six digit serial number and there will not be a letter prefix.

And, as you say, it has five, not four, frame screws.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I grabbed the S/N from inside the cylinder this morning. On checking it is a Pre V serial starting 766. I have edited the OP.

I have had the grips off and it is indeed a 4 screw frame. There is no 5th screw under the grip.

Nice looking revolver. You may have quoted the assembly number, from the crane, as the serial number. It should have a high 6 digit number on the butt as well as several other places.

OK, lots of faster fingers than my old ones....

The fifth screw would be at the front of the trigger guard. It secures the spring and plunger for the cylinder stop . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Yes, Kiwi cop. The one on the sideplate that would be covered by Magna stocks is already visible on yours because you have the prewar service stocks that do not come up high enough to cover the rear sideplate screw.

Five screw revolvers have four in the sideplate and the cylinder stop plunger retaining screw in the front of the trigger guard.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Ahh, those screws again.... Kiwi Cop, you should go to the "5 screws, 4 screws,...." thread in this subforum and read Hondo44's most excellent dissertation on the screw count issue.

That aside, great gun. One rarely, actually never so far in my case, sees a New Zealand-shipped M&P in .38 S&W that has not been freshly parkerized post-war and, as far as I can see, has no military markings on the backstrap. So this one was shipped to your country as a police handgun originally? Because of the shadow under the butt in the photos, I can't quite determine whether there is a lanyard loop. Is there, or at least the hole?

If yours has SN 766XXX (no V prefix) it probably shipped in mid-1941, likely May. And all Victories (and pre-Victories) had five screws. The four screw K-frames did not appear until the mid-1950s (but some very early K-frames also had four screws). At that time, Pre-Vs left the factory with a blued finish and checkered round top grips.

One more question if you don't mind. I'm curious about your wording here. If they only issued the .38 S&W "briefly in the 60's", what was in use before then? I was always always under the impression that the caliber (under its .380 Mk I/Mk IIz labels) was the standard in Commonwealth nations since at least the 1930s when they downsized from the .455 Webley.

I thought the same thing. I would have expected that the use of the .380 Revolver cartridge (AKA .38 S&W) in police service would have been very common in most places in the British Commonwealth, especially during the post-WWII period.

Okay so I've learnt something new today, and as a 5 screw revolver my gun is even more desirable to me.

As for the calibre, in NZ police up until the early 1960's the issue handgun was either the Colt 1903 or the Browning 1910 (I have examples of both in my safe) in .32 ACP. Over the course of five weeks 5 police officers were shot and killed in two seperate incidents, one in Lower Hutt (Wellington) and the other in Auckland. The Auckland one involved the offender being shot with the .32's and still killing the cops. The brass decided a bigger calibre was needed.

After that the police went to the .38 S&W Victory model for a few years. The guns were ex Royal New Zealand Air Force issue that were recently surplus, the RNZAF in the process of upgrading to the Model 10. The issue ammo was 170 grain down from the original 200 grain bullet. The Victory was in issue for around 3 years until the Police got budgetary approval for the Model 10. (This was the 1960's and things moved at a slow snails pace back then).

Oh, and I also have an H&R .32 revolver that was issued to police in Tasmania, Australia, back in the 1920's.

Very interesting. It sounds like you guys were a lot more "European" than I would have thought.

The FN is an obvious choice if the general European preference for the 7.65mm was followed, but the Colt 1903 seems an interesting choice. Do you know whether those also originated from among the guns shipped under Lend-Lease? According to Pate, that included about 7,500 of the .32 ACP 1903's. And of course production ended with the war, so any that ended up in New Zealand would have to be pre-1945.

"The issue ammo was 170 grain down from the original 200 grain bullet."
Was that the military Mk2 FMJ bullet round or a commercial loading?

The 1903/1910 pistols were introduced by an early 20th century police commissioner from England. From memory it was in the 1920's. They served as issue firearms right through until the shootings in '64 proved just how ineffectual the round was.

There is a well known incident in our history, In the early 1940's all .303 Lee Enfield rifles in civilian hands were commandeered for military service. Stanley Graham, a South Island farmer, refused to hand his in. Local cops went to his farm to take his rifle. On the way the sergeant pulled his '03 Colt out of the glovebox of the car. When one of his constables asked if it was going to be needed the sergeant replied "No, and just as well there are no bullets for it".

This was included in a scene of a movie made about the events.

The ammo, like the revolvers, were ex RNZAF issue, so I'd have to say they were the Mk2 rounds.

I have located an old reference book, Handguns and Police in New Zealand 1840-1991, by John Osborne (I actually shot with Joh for a few years in the 1990's), and in summary:

In 1903 Walter Dinnie of Scotland Yard was appointed NZ Police Commissioner. He introduced the .32 Long revolver for detectives and the brass. Sergeants and below still used .450 calibre revolvers.

Following a siege in London over Christmas 1910/New Year 1911 the London Metropolitan Police adopted the .32 Webley & Scott model of 1911. It was later adopted by all police forces in the UK. In 1913 it was also adopted by Australian and NZ Police Forces.

Before then a small quantity of both 1903 Colt and 1910 Browning pistols were purchased from England, the only place where both were on sale until the mid 1930's.

The Colt and Browning remained the issue pistol until early 1964 when, after two shootings resulted in 5 police officers killed, special Armed Offenders squads were set up (SWAT teams) to deal with armed incidents. They were issued in 1964 with surplus RNZAF S&W K200 Victory models. The following year the armed squads received a few Model 10's in 38 Special. NZ Police use "trickle down" method of introducing new firearms, Specialist squads get them first then when they're updated the old ones go to general staff. It wasn't until 1971 that the .38 Special started to trickle down to general duties cops on the beat.

Stopped by the range on my beat today with the Victory.

Six shots double action at the 10 meter/11 yard position in under 6 seconds from the 45 degree position with weak hand at shoulder height.

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Which barrel length of Model 10 was used? The RCMP used the five-incher and South Africa opted for the four-inch, the latter in .38S&W, so called Model 11.

I think the UK used four-inchers, maybe some in the heavy barrel M-10-6 form. At least some had the Model 28 .357, carried in the car in a lock box.

It's a 4 inch model

Thread drift moment: have you got crocodiles that far south? Any big monitor lizards of the genus Varanus, like the New Guinea Crocodile Lizard/Monitor?

Have any police there had to shoot any dangerous animals? Apart from bad domestic dogs, I mean? How did the guns fare?

We have Nile Monitor Lizards in Florida now. And Burmese pythons.

I know about the Tuatara, but have the impression that they aren't big enough to bite anyone who doesn't try to pick them up.

There is nothing "so called" about these guns Tex. They are marked Model 11 (and some are 11-4) in the usual place.

Peter

Peter-

Had I said "were called" or "were designated", would that have been more clear?

I just meant they were Model 11's, not Model 10, by virtue of the cartridge difference. Jinks's and other books mention that designation and Racing Snake showed his example here recently. He's in Johannesburg and served in the SAP some years back.

A number of these M-11-4's were sold here in the 1990's, probably retained in the USA after the arms embargo was instituted against South Africa.

"So called" is generally used in the pejorative, as in "so called friends . . . "

so-called: adjective [before noun] uk /ˌsəʊˈkɔːld/ us /ˌsoʊˈkɑːld/
B2 used to show that you think a word that is used to describe someone or something is not suitable or not correct:

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

We are a bit too far south of the tropics for anything like croc's or big lizards. And like Ireland we don't have any snakes either, except politicians, lawyers and used car salesmen.

Actually we are free from almost all predators, although there are some wild pig that will have a good go at a human.