Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Revolvers > S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961
o

Notices

S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-16-2016, 06:34 PM
Big E3's Avatar
Big E3 Big E3 is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 309
Likes: 341
Liked 711 Times in 197 Posts
Default 1917 Dilemma

I have an interesting, to me, 1917. I can't pin down exactly what I have. Does anybody think this is a commercial or a Brazilian or possibly something else? Seems like a low serial number for a commercial, but the serial doesn't seem to fit into any category. I would think if someone was going to fake a commercial they would have picked a nicer gun to start with. It feels like the more I read about this thing the less I figure out and more confused I get.

Here's what I know:
The Frame:
It has a serial number of 165024, on the butt parallel to the frame.
It is NOT marked "U.S. Army" on the butt.
It has a lanyard ring.
The serial number is matching on the butt, the barrel, the cylinder and the ejector star.
It does have the S&W logo on the left side of the frame.
It has single line "MADE IN USA" on the right frame.
It has the round top strap.
It has the half round cut rear sight.
It does NOT have an internal hammer block safety.
The frame is machined with the "fouling cup" behind the barrel above the cylinder.
It has the serrated trigger.
It has the Springfield Armory mark of "S2" below an eagle on the frame at the yoke.
No flaming bomb stamped anywhere.
The frame number and yoke number match.
No numbers or markings on the back of the grip frame.
The frame appears to have been finished in glossy blue.
It has the smooth military style grips and the number on the back is stamped and is a number 818 higher than the frame serial number.

The Barrel:
It does NOT have "UNITED STATES PROPERTY” under the barrel.
It has the import stamp "CIA ST ALB VT" under the barrel meaning it was re-imported by Century International Arms of St Albans VT.
Patented dates on top of the barrel.
"S&W D.A.45" on the left side of the barrel, nothing on the right side.
It has the Springfield Armory mark of "S34" below an eagle behind the serial under the barrel.

It is in generally well used condition, not a sock drawer special. I'm also not familiar with the star on the back of the cylinder with the serial number.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2016-05-16 13.52.30.jpg (101.4 KB, 217 views)
File Type: jpg 2016-05-16 13.52.47.jpg (106.0 KB, 187 views)
File Type: jpg 2016-05-16 13.56.47.jpg (67.2 KB, 193 views)
File Type: jpg 2016-04-27 22.26.41.jpg (102.5 KB, 182 views)
File Type: jpg 2016-05-16 13.54.00.jpg (97.3 KB, 172 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #2  
Old 05-16-2016, 07:13 PM
Penmon's Avatar
Penmon Penmon is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MD -PA
Posts: 614
Likes: 120
Liked 299 Times in 142 Posts
Default

Does it have any British Stamps, like an arrow or somethings tons?
You are sure it's 45 and not 455 or 45 long colt.
If no and yes, it's most likely one made from spare frames after the Great War and that would be the comericial version.
What I don't understand is the S34 and eagle marking ?
__________________
Thank you
Penmon AKA Jim
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-16-2016, 07:17 PM
Jack Flash's Avatar
Jack Flash Jack Flash is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,292
Likes: 33,755
Liked 10,948 Times in 3,946 Posts
Default

My two cents:
Based on Century's re-import mark, the S&W logo, and the "Made in USA" mark, I'm going to say it must be a Brazilian with the crest removed. Probably shipped to Brazil in 1946.

That s/n is a little low for this group, but I have a Brazilian that is only 800 numbers higher. You could letter yours to remove all doubt.

I'll sit back and see what the experts think.
__________________
They lack our altruism.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 05-16-2016, 07:37 PM
Big E3's Avatar
Big E3 Big E3 is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 309
Likes: 341
Liked 711 Times in 197 Posts
Default

I have a British marked 38/200 it doesn't have any of those proof marks. The cylinder is definitely 45acp and for use with or without moon clips. Here are a few more pics showing marks.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2016-05-16 17.26.38.jpg (94.9 KB, 74 views)
File Type: jpg 2016-04-27 22.22.13.jpg (116.8 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg 2016-04-27 22.25.14.jpg (97.2 KB, 77 views)
File Type: jpg 2016-05-01 18.08.12.jpg (115.2 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg 2016-04-29 14.42.29.jpg (59.9 KB, 80 views)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-16-2016, 08:54 PM
hardscrabble hardscrabble is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 216
Likes: 73
Liked 259 Times in 73 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Flash View Post
My two cents:
Based on Century's re-import mark, the S&W logo, and the "Made in USA" mark, I'm going to say it must be a Brazilian with the crest removed. Probably shipped to Brazil in 1946.

That s/n is a little low for this group, but I have a Brazilian that is only 800 numbers higher. You could letter yours to remove all doubt.

I'll sit back and see what the experts think.
I agree. I'm not an expert, but the only attributes here that would make me question that it is one of the second export to Brazil is the low SN, out of the typical range, and the missing crest on the side plate. I can't see any evidence it has been removed, since the seams look tight, but some of these marks had very light strikes and would be easy to polish out. I would think you'd be able to see something amiss though.
__________________
Cy
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-16-2016, 09:27 PM
Big E3's Avatar
Big E3 Big E3 is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 309
Likes: 341
Liked 711 Times in 197 Posts
Default

I've been leaning toward Brazilian, but a very low serial number and I can't imagine buffing the crest out while leaving the gun so rough. This gun looks like it's been beat around and they were always cheap until recently so why bother removing the crest? But, I'm not aware of any other guns being re-imported, so Brazilian makes the most sense.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-16-2016, 09:36 PM
Jack Flash's Avatar
Jack Flash Jack Flash is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,292
Likes: 33,755
Liked 10,948 Times in 3,946 Posts
Default

Cy, that sounds reasonable.

I was thinking that one possibly had it's sideplate replaced. Or maybe S&W didn't put the crest on that one? Never say never with S&W.

Penmon: That sure looks like a 5.5" barrel, and the barrel has the same s/n as the butt so probably original (and correct for an M1917). A .455 would have a 6.5" barrel. Of course it could be cut down but the markings look correct and well centered.

The S4 and Eagle marks were WWI US inspector marks. A lot of ancient parts for M1917s were discovered when S&W was doing a post-WWII clean up. These parts were then assembled into complete M1917s and sold to Brazil in 1946.
__________________
They lack our altruism.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-16-2016, 09:46 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
US Veteran
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The SW Va Blue Ridge
Posts: 17,472
Likes: 88,960
Liked 24,780 Times in 8,482 Posts
Default

Since it has the one line "MADE IN USA" stamping, it was built sometime from mid 1922 onward.

The stamping looks like it was done by hand. Also, my commercial 1917 in the 180xxx range is stamped with the barrel pointing to the right and the font is smaller.

Go to this thread and look at the SN photo in post # 7:

Stamp or Mark on 1917

This is how my 1917 is stamped, with the small digits.
__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Last edited by Muley Gil; 05-16-2016 at 10:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-16-2016, 10:08 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

The pertinent clues are:

1. the serial # reads with barrel to the left which indicates a post WW II produced gun. But as Muley Gil pointed out, they're awfully crooked for factory stamping and in the wrong direction.

2. Serial #s for 1917s are so jumbled that it's the least reliable indicator of vintage and which model it is.

3. the eagle inspector stamps indicate that the frame and barrel are indeed WW I 1917 surplus parts and is very common.

4. The S&W logo on left side frame indicates post 1920 frame production.

5. The Made in USA stamp (ordered May 1922) clearly indicates post WW I production of the frame.

6. The surplus WW I smooth grips indicate Brazilian contract, but since they're non matching, likely replaced.

7. Missing Brazilian logo (could have been removed) but I have my doubts.

8. Round top frame/U notch rear sight are common for later assembled 1917s and 1946 2nd Brazilian contract.

9. The lack of the early style sideplate hammer block is consistent with serial numbers below 185,000.

So what do you have?

A preponderance of the evidence indicates it's likely a pre 1946 assembled or faked commercial model. Lanyard swivels are common on these. If a genuine commercial model, the checkered grips it should have, were swapped out for the surplus grips.

One anomaly is: In Dec 1936, logo ordered moved to the sideplate on the right and made larger. But I wouldn't call that a deal killer.

COMMERCIAL MODELS, pertinent facts:

Com'l 1917 models have a serial # parallel to the butt like all other com'l models except those I frames stamped on the front grip strap.

“The factory added the 1917 as a regular cataloged commercial model in Catalog D-2 which was issued in Jan, 1921.
Same basic gun as a 1917 Army. That's not to say there were none sold into the commercial market before that; there are 'no rules' that apply.

Features of Commercial models post WW I:

No Army or US Property marks.
5-1/2" in cal 45 ACP, but the barrel reads "S.&W. D.A. 45".
Bright Blue.
Butt Swivel.
S&W logo on left side, Checkered non-medallion, convex top stocks during the 1920s. [Flat silver medallions thru the 1930s and war years.]”
The lowest com’l model in the SWCA database = #167382 shipped Oct, 1922.” Lee Jarrett

Unused serial numbered military frames preceding and following #169959, (the estimated last military unit made), were assembled thru # 209791 by 1946.
Some with very varied shipping dates were assembled into commercial model 1917s, 2nd Model 44 Hand Ejectors, and military 1917s to fill contracts for the Brazilian government in 1937 and 1946. Most will have the flaming bomb or eagle government inspector stamps in various locations but not on the outside of the frame which were finished off; only in the yoke. And there’s cases of a frame made into a 45 ACP having a surplus 1917 barrel and cylinder which will have the inspector stamps. Example: all matching serial number is #55639 (assembly # 18408 match in all 3 locations as well), it's a round top/U sight notch, has Eagle head proofs inspectors stamps on barrel & cylinder; S24 on cylinder, and an S34 on the barrel. If it has the S&W trademark on the frame it is a commercial gun, at least after ~ 1920. War time 1917s did not have S&W trademark logos.

A few more were produced c. 1946 - 1950 (991 is the usual quantity quoted), most in the 1917 serial range # S209972 to # S210782 (811 #s), some without the S prefix, issued as commercial models post WW II, found with and w/o lanyard swivels, and are considered Model 1917 Army Post War Transitional models
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 05-16-2016 at 10:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 05-16-2016, 10:40 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Big E3,

Almost forgot, the star on the cyl can mean a return trip to the factory. There may be a date under the left grip on the side of the grip frame.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-17-2016, 01:47 AM
Big E3's Avatar
Big E3 Big E3 is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 309
Likes: 341
Liked 711 Times in 197 Posts
Default

Thank you Jim, a lot of really good info in your post and thanks to everyone else for your thoughts as well. I took the grip panels off not much under there. I found a "0" on the right side, nothing on the left. It sounds like this may remain a mystery unless I get a letter from Jinks. Thought I would take a chance, paid $500 for it, I'm guessing that may be at the top end on value. Oh well, it locks up tight, has good rifling and cylinder looks good so should still make a good shooter. I can't get past the import marks, I keep coming back to Brazilian in my mind. Does anybody think it is worth spending the extra money to get the letter?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2016-05-16 22.53.13.jpg (88.4 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg 2016-05-16 22.53.38.jpg (106.5 KB, 38 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 05-17-2016, 02:23 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

The 0 is just a factory assembler's mark. The missing rework date is not unusual for certain periods, nothing is ever completely consistent on S&Ws.

The import stamp can mean it just left the country and could have gone anywhere in the world and imported back into the USA. With the importer being in VT, it may have been purchased here by an individual and carried or sent to Canada, then imported back from Canada.

A letter may be helpful, especially if it was shipped out of the country or to an exporter in the USA. Letters usually show the shipping destination, but won't have any import information.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 05-17-2016 at 02:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 05-17-2016, 07:28 AM
Jack Flash's Avatar
Jack Flash Jack Flash is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,292
Likes: 33,755
Liked 10,948 Times in 3,946 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big E3 View Post
... It sounds like this may remain a mystery unless I get a letter from Jinks. Thought I would take a chance, paid $500 for it, I'm guessing that may be at the top end on value. Oh well, it locks up tight, has good rifling and cylinder looks good so should still make a good shooter. I can't get past the import marks, I keep coming back to Brazilian in my mind. Does anybody think it is worth spending the extra money to get the letter?
I sure think you should letter it. If nothing else, it will sure tell you whether it went from the factory in a shipment to Brazil or if it was shipped as a Commercial Variation. Pricewise, that information could mean a lot.

It doesn't seem likely that someone would go to so much trouble to remove the crest or replace the sideplate, stamp new numbers, etc, but then leave that import mark. That's why I can't get my head around the "It's a Fake" theory.

Well, we can speculate forever. The only effective thing to do is get some authoritive information from Roy Jinks.
__________________
They lack our altruism.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-17-2016, 09:16 AM
JSR III's Avatar
JSR III JSR III is offline
SWCA Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 9,575
Likes: 3,695
Liked 8,924 Times in 3,545 Posts
Default

If you want to verify that the side plate is original to the gun, carefully remove it and check the assembly number on the backside. If it matches the ones in the yoke area, then it is original. Check the face with a bright light and magnifier to see if there are any traces of the stamp. Some were very faint and it wouldn't take much for it to disappear to the naked eye.

The serial number generally puts it into the original run of 1917's that ran from 1 to 169,XXX.

Jack Flash raises an interesting point however, as he has a Brazilian that is only 800 number higher. Perhaps these guns came back to S&W with leftover parts and were assembled and included in the Brazilian shipment. S&W did not waste inventory and it was just a gun to them that represented money, not a collectors item that had to fall within a perfect range of serial numbers.

The star is an interesting tidbit. S&W usually placed the star on the butt to identify a reworked gun. This example has no star on the butt and no rework date coded on the left frame????

Not sure if a letter will reveal any significant information but at this point, if it were mine, $50 would be a cheap price to pay to further my investigation.
__________________
James Redfield
LM #497
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 05-17-2016, 06:09 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

James,

Good idea to check the assembly # on the inside of the sideplate!

The missing star from the butt serial # or even the side of the grip frame is interesting.

And the butt # reading with barrel to the left which is post war makes me wonder if other Brazilian 1946 contracts read that way. Anyone have a '46 that reads that way???
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-17-2016, 11:19 PM
Big E3's Avatar
Big E3 Big E3 is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 309
Likes: 341
Liked 711 Times in 197 Posts
Default

So now my question is do all side plates normally have an assembly number? It took a while to get it off and clean it up, not seeing any numbers.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2016-05-17 20.47.01.jpg (68.1 KB, 48 views)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-17-2016, 11:38 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

One can never say never about S&Ws, but a side plate w/o a matching assembly # is highly unusual on an all original gun. The # would normally be in the milled groove.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 05-17-2016 at 11:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-17-2016, 11:55 PM
Big E3's Avatar
Big E3 Big E3 is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 309
Likes: 341
Liked 711 Times in 197 Posts
Default

I think this was meant to be a puzzle, looks like Jinks is inevitable. Is he doing letters again?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 05-18-2016, 12:09 AM
jebstuart's Avatar
jebstuart jebstuart is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Foothills (Phoenix), AZ
Posts: 624
Likes: 256
Liked 1,229 Times in 338 Posts
Default

When the "Journeymen" among us are doing a collective head scratching, I'll stay tuned.
Jeb
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-18-2016, 06:54 AM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
US Veteran
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The SW Va Blue Ridge
Posts: 17,472
Likes: 88,960
Liked 24,780 Times in 8,482 Posts
Default

My "guess" is that this is a leftover WW I frame that was un-numbered and then assembled for the 1946 Brazilian order. The larger digits and the "wrong-way" post WW II handstamped SN on the butt point to this.

The Brazilian stamped sideplate could have been replaced with this unmarked, unstamped one.

Does the underside of the barrel have the correct SN? Could you post a picture of that number.
__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Last edited by Muley Gil; 05-18-2016 at 06:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #21  
Old 05-18-2016, 07:27 AM
DCWilson's Avatar
DCWilson DCWilson is online now
SWCA Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,993
Likes: 4,998
Liked 7,681 Times in 2,618 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
And the butt # reading with barrel to the left which is post war makes me wonder if other Brazilian 1946 contracts read that way. Anyone have a '46 that reads that way???
Exactly. The number on the butt of my '46 Brazilian reads properly with the barrel to the left. SN 173159; the round-top frame indicates it was among the leftover frames from the 1920s.
__________________
David Wilson
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-18-2016, 09:13 AM
handejector's Avatar
handejector handejector is offline
Administrator
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,011
Likes: 7,106
Liked 48,564 Times in 9,217 Posts
Default

I was going to ask for a good closeup of the sideplate, but since it has no number, it has most likely been replaced.
Perhaps by a Brazilian armorer, perhaps when it got the star, or perhaps by Joe Blow who did not like his gun saying Brazil.
Your gun is a 1946 Brazilian.


Confusion abounds on 1917s.
So, I'll state a few things again that I believe to be facts-

1>The first Brazilian Contract in 1936 was all commercial guns exactly like any other commercial 1917s of the period:
A- Flat Top
B- High Polish
C- Numbered ABOVE the WW I range
D- Frames will NOT have Springfield stamps because they were made after the War
E- Barrels and cylinders may or may not have Springfield stamps
F- Checkered grips with medallions
G- ALL have logos on left
H- All have numbers read with barrel pointing right

1946 Brazilians-
Everybody wants to complicate these guns. They're simple. Hellstrom found a bunch of scrap iron, and turned it into money.
The remaining WW I frames were most likely discovered when they cleaned up after WW II and were getting ready to eventually MOVE the Factory. The new Factory was going to be totally self-financed. NO loans. Hellstrom had been hired as President at a fixed salary PLUS a percentage of profits. That deal eventually made him one of the highest paid executives in the US!
Are you tracking with me here?
CASH FLOW......
PROFITS......
We can take these obsolete, outdated, useless frames and scrap them when we move because we can't make guns with them because we haven't sold a round top frame with those awful, narrow sights in 20 years (since 1927)
OR........
Make the Brazilians an offer they can't refuse.
We'll be shipping those obsolete frames WAY off so they don't make us look bad. We'll be making good money off of scarp iron. We'll be using up all those damn barrels and cylinders the Gov made us buy back after WW I.
We're filling a 12,000 piece order with most of the materials paid for so long ago they are basically free.
WHOOPEE!
2> 1946 Brazilians I have seen-
A- All are Round Top WW I frames
B- Satin Blue
C- No hammer blocks
D- Logo on left, "Made in USA" on right
E- Smooth grips. Newly made, not leftovers. Numbered to the gun.
F- Frames may or may not have a Springfield stamp. If a frame was a reject, it won't have an acceptance stamp. If a frame was simply a leftover that did not get used, it may have the stamp.
G- The number is read with barrel pointing left.
A 1946 Brazilian can have a serial number that falls ANYWHERE in the 1917 range. I've seen several 5 digits. I've seen a 4 digit. There are rumors of a 3 digit or two.
THIS is where the only mystery for me comes in-
WHY / WHEN / HOW was a WWI US contract number put on a surplus frame? IF the frame was numbered in WWI, it would also have the "US Army" marks. So, did they grind that off and re-stamp the number, or did they simply find an UNUSED number in the records and stamp it on a previously unnumbered frame? IF that is what they did, WHY? Why not just keep going with where the numbers were at that time? Puzzling.


General Data-
Most Brazilians have mismatched grips. They apparently came in soaked or packed in oil or cosmoline.
I think Century pulled the grips off most of them, soaked them in solvent, and threw a pair of grips back on them. They paid no attention to whether the gun should have checkered or smooth grips.

The Transition guns in the final run were all Flat Tops.
They all have modern hammer blocks whether they have the S or not.
All I have seen had swivels.
All shipped with checkered magnas.

Brazilian armorers apparently did many repairs over the years. I've seen replaced, unnumbered barrels made by S&W. I've seen replaced, unnumbered barrels that were NOT made by S&W that were probably made in Brazil.
I've seen reblued Brazilians that I believe had been reblued in Brazil. Generally, fairly nice matte blue. They did not appear to have been buffed. More likely pickled or bead blasted.
__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #23  
Old 05-18-2016, 11:31 AM
Big E3's Avatar
Big E3 Big E3 is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 309
Likes: 341
Liked 711 Times in 197 Posts
Default

Muley, in my post #4 the third pic is the bottom of the barrel with matching number. The first pic is the cylinder with matching number.

It sounds like if this gun simply had a Brazilian side plate, any other issues the gun has could be explained away as a clean up of parts for the 1946 contract to Brazil.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-18-2016, 01:19 PM
fkienast fkienast is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 115
Likes: 18
Liked 101 Times in 43 Posts
Default

As mentioned above, here is 55639:

Grip Serial Number

Right side view shows Brazilian Star and Made inn USA.

Left side view shows S&W logo

Cylinder view show serial number 55639 and S24 inspector stamp.

Inside view of side plate reveals assembly number 18408.

Frame at Yoke view assembly number 18408

Yoke Assembly number 18408

Inside of ejector star serial number 55639

Underside of barrel show serial number 55639 and S34 inspector stamp

Last edited by fkienast; 05-19-2016 at 02:33 PM. Reason: add photo
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #25  
Old 05-18-2016, 04:56 PM
schutzen-jager's Avatar
schutzen-jager schutzen-jager is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: peoples republic of New J
Posts: 609
Likes: 585
Liked 856 Times in 340 Posts
Default

back in the early 90's Century Arms sold a very large quantity of Brazilians as U fix Em gunsmith specials for about $20.00 each IIRC - missing parts such as grips , hammers , side plates , + etc. - replacement parts were cheap back then + many were put back into service for less than a $50.00 investment - i did it myself - still have one of the Brazilian army holsters that they sold three for $9.00 -
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #26  
Old 05-18-2016, 08:23 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector View Post
[/B]2> 1946 Brazilians I have seen-
A- All are Round Top WW I frames

WHY / WHEN / HOW was a WWI US contract number put on a surplus frame? IF the frame was numbered in WWI, it would also have the "US Army" marks. So, did they grind that off and re-stamp the number, or did they simply find an UNUSED number in the records and stamp it on a previously unnumbered frame? IF that is what they did, WHY? Why not just keep going with where the numbers were at that time? Puzzling.

General Data-
Most Brazilians have mismatched grips. They apparently came in soaked or packed in oil or cosmoline.
I think Century pulled the grips off most of them, soaked them in solvent, and threw a pair of grips back on them. They paid no attention to whether the gun should have checkered or smooth grips.

Thx Lee, all very interesting, informative, and pretty conclusive for the OP's 1946 Brazilian.

Not to nit pick, and not important, but it seems we've seen a few square top '46 contract Brazilians, just saying.

Yes, the renumbering is puzzling; good questions. IF they ground off the US stamp/SN on the butt and restamped it, not very likely they kept track of which number was ground off of which frame and paying attention to restamp the same # back on the same gun. The guy grinding them off was likely different from the guy doing the restamping somewhere else in the plant. Having said that, if the frame had a SN, it likely would have a yoke with matching serial number on the rear vertical surface. So maybe not that difficult to have the stamping guy put the same # back on the same frame butt.

I can see them restamping them from an inventory list of all numbers that were ground off. Or more possibly stamping unused numbers on unstamped frames; maybe not researching unused #s (seems a pain in the neck) but maybe they had a ready list to work from. But still, as you say, just using new #s of the time seems much easier, again unless that would make it non-matching to and if the yoke was already numbered. Well just my speculation and that's virtually worthless, so we'll never know.

Mismatched grips due to the importer switching grips is something I hadn't thought of. I was too focused on thinking about what the factory did and forgetting all the other hands in the soup after that.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 10-28-2017 at 11:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #27  
Old 05-18-2016, 09:25 PM
Jack Flash's Avatar
Jack Flash Jack Flash is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,292
Likes: 33,755
Liked 10,948 Times in 3,946 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schutzen-jager View Post
back in the early 90's Century Arms sold a very large quantity of Brazilians as U fix Em gunsmith specials for about $20.00 each IIRC - missing parts such as grips , hammers , side plates , + etc. - replacement parts were cheap back then + many were put back into service for less than a $50.00 investment - i did it myself - still have one of the Brazilian army holsters that they sold three for $9.00 -
I vaguely remember those ads in ShotGun News. That is a very likely piece of this puzzle.
__________________
They lack our altruism.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #28  
Old 05-19-2016, 08:23 AM
handejector's Avatar
handejector handejector is offline
Administrator
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,011
Likes: 7,106
Liked 48,564 Times in 9,217 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post

Not to nit pick, and not important, but it seems we've seen a few square top '46 contract Brazilians, just saying.
There may be some Flat Tops in the 1946 contract.
If they found 11,498 usable WW I frames, I'd expect there to be 502 Flat Tops in the 1946 contract.
If they found 11,998 usable WW I frames, I'd expect there to be 2 Flat Tops in the 1946 contract.
Etc, etc.....
I'd expect Hellstrom to round up, not down.
I've just never seen one.
Not many people letter Brazilians. A Flat Top Brazilian lettered to 1946 would definitely prove the point, and wouldn't shock me.
It would then be interesting to examine them-
Modern hammer blocks in all?
Pre-War hammer blocks in all?
No hammer blocks? (using up WW I sideplates?)
Some with, some without?
__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #29  
Old 05-19-2016, 09:13 AM
H Richard's Avatar
H Richard H Richard is offline
US Veteran
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Central IL
Posts: 22,758
Likes: 18,437
Liked 22,313 Times in 8,245 Posts
Default

I've got one of these Brazilian models, #170729, round top, with small C I A import mark, that had the early dished top grips, not matching. Brazilian crest on side plate. Roy had given me an April 46 ship date.
__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #30  
Old 05-19-2016, 01:17 PM
Big E3's Avatar
Big E3 Big E3 is offline
Member
1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 309
Likes: 341
Liked 711 Times in 197 Posts
Default

It looks like the serial number on the butt of the fkienast gun has a similar size and font to mine. Also the S&W stamp on the left side is in the same location. H. Richard, does your serial on the butt have a similar font and direction (barrel left) as mine? And is the S&W stamp located in the same spot on the left side? I also see on the fkienast gun the barrel number and inspector marks are similar as well.

I feel like if I could find a Brazilian side plate and have it fit to mine, it would eliminate any future confusion about this gun.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-19-2016, 09:42 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma 1917 Dilemma  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

In retrospect, the more I look at it, the more I think your butt serial # is factory correct.

I think your right, if you find a Brazilian side plate.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
*SOLD* WTT/WTS : Uberti NO 3 1875 44-40 - Top Break - For S&W 1917 / Colt 1917 Spaxspore GUNS - For Sale or Trade 0 01-24-2016 09:59 PM
WTS - Lower prices - S&W 1917, Colt 1917, RHKP Model 10, Model 1917 holsters cubrock GUNS - For Sale or Trade 5 06-18-2012 04:57 PM
CLOSED Brazil Itajuba 1917 .45 revolver barrel. Original FM 23-46 Colt & S&W 1917 .45 Revolver_Ocelot Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 0 04-20-2012 01:29 AM
Dilemma captorquewrench The Lounge 44 06-12-2011 12:10 PM
1917 Dilemma Feedback wanted tac803 S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 10 02-04-2010 08:13 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:24 PM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)