I addressed this in another post as much of the information I seek was in it, but it was only a corollary to the original thread and a hijacking of another individual's thread.

In any event, picture 1 depicts the column: Broad, wavy arrow means accepted into British Military Service; Crown means property of the Crown; A2 means accepted into service by Inspector A2; E means inspected and accepted into service at the Royal Small Arms Factory located at Enfield Lock.

Picture 2 depicts two facing arrows which means sold out of service. Near the grip on the frame is a marking with B B 2 within. I cannot find what this means.

Picture 3 depicts proofs that are defined as NP (nitro proof), BP (Birmingham proof), and BV (Birmingham view). Also the double arrows and "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" (self explanatory). Also, a marking that depicts two crossed flags--not sure what this means?

Picture 4 shows 45, assumed to be caliber, as converted to .45 Colt. Also markings A and R, not sure what this means. Absent is any reference to cal .455, which is interesting, as I would have expected this to have been marked somewhere and perhaps scored through.

Picture 5 depicts some fine file marks and imperfections on frame at trigger guard near 11 o'clock. Looks like something was intentionally removed or defaced.

Comments?

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This likely precedes the .455 HE contracts since it is 1914. I've always found these WW1-era S&Ws so fascinating. I'm hoping someone who knows these well will be along because now my curiosity is up.

.45 AR possibly .45 Auto Rimmed, would likely also accept .45 ACP with the moon clips as the ACP was a common Military round. The space between the cylinder and flash plate seem to be correct for moon clipped .45 ACP but without specific measurements, can't be 100% sure. Also, take a look down into the cylinder for the depth of the chamfer.

IIRC the .45 LC conversions are bored straight through (no visible chamfer) but depending on who did the conversion the inside of the cylinder might have a memory line of where the old chamfer was if they cylinder bores were not polished out after machined but most conversions to .45LC were done nice and clean but the length of the cylinder might be a tad short for .45 LC requiring only flat nose .45 LC if at all.

I have one, untouched, still in British .455

If I'm correct (given the limited picture and lack of measurements ) it will not chamber a .45 LC.

PS: If it has those scroll of stamps and inspector markings, broad arrow, it surely was a British contracted S&W for our British cousins.
Remember during WWII we were sending arms over to the Brits years before we were involved in the war.

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

My TL, serial #718, was in one of the first shipments on October 21,1914.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

My understanding is that one wants to avoid .45 ACP or .45 AR in these due to pressures. My understanding is that it will shoot .45 Colt.

I am at Memorial Day festivities right now. However, when I get a chance later this evening I will investigate further...and post more photographs.

45 AR definitely means someone converted it to fire .45 Auto Rim cartridges. It will also fire .45 ACP in moon clips. Whether this is advisable or not is another question. Not all of these were marked ".455" so the original caliber marking was not there to cross out.

The crossed pennants are a proof mark.

Per the chart below, "BB 2" interleaved with the crossed swords is a view mark, indicating that inspector #2 examined it in 1951.

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You're shy a few manners.

Okay, what would be the significance of 1951, as this was created for use in WWI, and by 1951, WWII was long over?

Also, am I indeed correct in stating it is okay to fire.45 Colt rounds in this revolver?

Lots of these were sent back to the US and surplus-ed out. Along that line of thought 1951 is not an outrageous time difference. Pick up some old American Rifleman from the 50s to look at the ads for the crates of surplus guns for sale. I doubt if it would be converted to .45 AR / .45 ACP to put back into US Military service.

I won't argue about the .45 LC because I've seen a few of these converted to 45LC but how does this differ from the US Army (and subsequent like models) of the 1917 made to fire .45 ACP and .45 AR ? Was there an essential difference in the steel or specs of metal thickness that would make it unlikely ? There was also the Model of 1950 Army (a new version of the 1917) in .45 ACP.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

The 1917s were heat treated, as part of the contract between the US Gov't and Smith & Wesson.

The .455 Triple Locks and .455 2nd Model Hand Ejectors were not heat treated. The .45 ACP operates at much higher pressures than does the .455 round.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I have .455 TL no. 358, which shipped in October 1914. It was converted to .45 Colt in the least damaging way, which means that .455 ammo can still be fired in it.

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David Wilson

Here is a picture of this Triple Lock. If you check out the shipping date request from 21 May 2016, you will note that Mr Roy Jinks states this revolver shipped December of 1914.

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You will note the OAL of the cylinder is 1.591".

The OAL of the .45 Colt round, as loaded with a .454" 250 gr bullet, 40 gr FFg powder, is 1.655".

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The first photograph depicts the chambers of the cylinder.

The second photograph depicts a .45 Colt round that easily fits into a cylinder.

However, the tip of the round slightly protrudes from the cylinder. This is enough of an occlusion to prevent the cylinder from properly closing.

The third photograph depicts the Lyman Dial Caliper taking a measurement of the rim of a .45 Colt round. The measurement obtained is .056". The difference between the OAL of the round (1.655") and the rim thickness (.056") is 1.599". The cylinder OAL IS 1.591". Depending on tolerances, this suggests that seating the bullet no more than another .008" should allow for this revolver to properly chamber and fire a .45 Colt round.

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Hi,

That appears to be a nice TL!

1. With a serial # or partial I 'd be able to determine if you have a Category 1 or 2 British Triple Lock. Most were not stamped with the 455 caliber.

2. It's safe to shoot 45 Colt and 45 AR (auto rim) standard factory loadings in these revolvers because they are loaded in the same pressure range as the 455, ~14,000. Yours is stamped 45 AR because that was the intended cartridge and the cyl rear face appears to have been "shaved" to accommodate its thicker rim; if so it may be too wide for 45 Colt reliable ignition. You'll need to chamber a 45 Colt cartridge to determine if the chamber shoulders were extended deeper for it. If extended and the gunsmith was 'clever', the shoulder may accommodate proper headspace for both AR and Colt rounds, but I doubt it.

3. Shooting 45 ACP in 455 chambers (they will work with clips when the cyl has been shaved for 45 AR) is controversial. 45 ACP standard loading has ~ 19,000 units pressure to reliably function the 1911 slide and the US 1917 cylinders were heat treated to accommodate the additional pressure over what the S&W hand ejector revolvers were designed for. Therefore the 455 cylinders are not heat treated. Hand loaded ACP cartridges loaded down to AR specs is acceptable. I'm not aware of catastrophic failures due to using factory ACP in 455 cylinders, but that would not be the problem. Accumulative damage to the cyl and revolver is the potential danger. Dimpling of the cyl notches from the chamber side of the notch is the first usual sign of over pressure loads and will eventually make cases impossible to extract and render the cyl useless.

4. The significance of the 1951 date is an indication of when your gun was inspected for the purposes of export from England, as does the "Not English Make" stamp which means more than its apparent meaning; it indicates the gun left England thru official export channels, (as does the 1951 inspector stamp), which was used during the period following ~ 1924.

5. The apparent "file" marks at the trigger guard appear to me to just be damage from mishandling. There's nothing stamped in that area to be removed and the scratches are not sufficient to remove any markings if there were.

I hope this helpful,

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I see there were several more postings since I began my post.

As far as you went with the Colt evaluation is good but the headspace between rear cyl face and breech face is the key question; if shaved for the AR the cyl length has been shortened an additional ~.045" (for the thicker AR rim of .100") over the headspace required for the 45 Colt.

As discussed in my post #14, if the shoulder in the chamber was extended enough for the Colt rim to seat flush against the cyl face which appears to be the case in your latest photos, headspace may be a problem for reliable ignition with the 45 Colt. Although the HE firing pins were quite long in this period and in my experience, it may still work for you. You'll just have to shoot it with Colt ammo to verify.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

1. the heat treating was sufficient and all S&W revolver cyls were heat treated by ~ 1920.

2. No difference in the steel until 1945 when heat treatment was eliminated by order Oct. 12, 1945 for cylinders on the .22 & .32 ‘I’ frames, K22, 32 & 38, and the 44 & 45 N frames (including the 1950). 38 N frames are not specifically listed. May be cost cutting, improved metallurgy, or more probably, both. The .357 continued to have heat treatment and all subsequent magnum cartridge models.

That's one reason reaming for and shooting 357 in 38/44s is not a good idea. Or it could indicate 38/44s are were still heat treated.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

mrcvs,

One more consideration: Smith & Wesson lists the bore dimensions for their .455 barrels as follows: groove diameter--.457 to .458; bore diameter--.447 to .448 inch; 5 lands and grooves, right hand twist; grooves--.144 inch wide, lands--.1368 inch.
Therefore hand loaded 45 Colt or ACP with oversized bullets will have greater accuracy potential in 455 barrels.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

===============================

Looks like these may be marks left from sort of retention holster.

The serial number is 3863. I think it has already been verified as falling into Category 2.

What is the significance of being in use after ~ 1924, and how did you determine that? It was shipped in late 1914, but that does not mean that it just didn't sit in a storage locker until 1924, or even 1951, for that matter.

Picture 1 depicts a .45 Colt round, bullet seated slightly more than previous round, at 1.626".

Picture 2 shows this round chambered within a closed cylinder.

Picture 3 shows the Lyman Dial Caliper taking the measurement of a civilian Triple Lock chambered in .44 Special. This measurement was taken to determine the length of a cylinder that was not modified, and the hypothesis was that this would be some value > 1.590". Hypothetically, the amount shaved would be the difference between the value obtained and 1.590". As one can see, this unmodified cylinder is 1.570", which means my hypothesis is indeed not valid at all.

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Jim, Is this true only for the TLs? The reason I ask is because all my 2nd Model cylinders measure .454. Also, measuring both vintage and modern 455 ammunition show a .454" bullet. Barnes book records 455 Webley Mk II as using a .454" bullet, while the 455 Enfield & .455 Webley Auto use a .455" bullet.

When I started to reload this caliber years ago I did the usual research and found information that a .454" bullet was the correct choice. I used the same 250 grain round nose bullet that I used in my 45 Colt and Schofield revolvers. The .454" bullet never keyholed and recovered slugs clearly showed rifling, so I always assumed they were properly sized for the 455 HE?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I noted the response directed to me about a .454" bullet, and intended to respond once I fired some of these rounds utilizing the .454" bullet. Indeed, I hope they do fire accurately, as I have well over a thousand .454" bullets (and none that are larger). I would use these .454" bullets in something else, no doubt, but it is obviously just most convenient to use the stock I have on hand.

Remember that the original 265 gr. bullet used in the Mk II loading had/has a hollow base and should obturate to make up for the .001" difference...........

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

When the Brits approached S&W for military side arms in 1914, S&W offered up the TL chambered for the .455 cartridge. The Brits required some changes, which ultimately resulted in the Hand Ejector II. Naturally, it took S&W some time to get these changes into production, and as a stop-gap measure, the Brits accepted TLs until the new model could be delivered. Since handguns were needed so desperately, we can assume yours was issued and saw use in The Great War.

As an interesting aside, so urgent was their need for handguns that the Brits also contracted for Spanish manufactured copies of the S&W top break revolver, chambered of course in .455. These were plagued with quality / reliability problems and the rejection rate was so high that the Brits canceled the contract.

Back to your TL. When the war ended in late 1918, it's hard to say where your TL went or how it was used. It may well have spent some time in storage, as it was a war-time substitute and may have had to take a back seat to the official standard Webley revolvers.

In WWII, the Brits once again found themselves desperately in need of handguns (and long guns as well, especially after they evacuated Dunkirk). There are stories of British civil defense forces being armed with swords and pikes to guard airfields, so great was the shortage of firearms. Urgent requests appeared in American newspapers asking civilians for donations of anything that would shoot to be sent over to England immediately. In such a situation, your TL would have been highly prized and may have been re-issued for front line duty. Or by the Home Guard. Who knows?

Some time after the war ended in 1945, your TL probably went back into stores where it may have sat until it was sold on the surplus market. Again, who knows exactly where its travels may have taken it?

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You're shy a few manners.

THANK YOU Jack Flash! You are a WEALTH of information!

Indeed, what you wrote ought to be a wake-up call for those in this country who are anti-second amendment. Do we really want to be in the situation where we are begging, borrowing, or stealing firearms in order to defend ourselves?

Indeed, what you wrote ought to be a wake-up call to our counterparts in the United Kingdom. This IS what indeed happened once, this could happen again!

I absolutely enjoy spending time in Britain, and am a licensed veterinarian over there. MRCVS is "Member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons", in which I am proudly a member in good standing. However, their attitude and laws relative to firearms is a bit bizarre, to say the least!

By the way, all this pro-second amendment stuff, and military history...let's not forget what today is--in memory of those who defended our country (Memorial Day).

I have a 455 that is counter-bored for a 45 Colt round. The overall length of the unmodified cylinder is 1.595". The OAL plus the 45 Colt chambered is 1.625". This 455 has a 0.005" barrel/cylinder gap and 1.640" from barrel to recoil shield. If the math is correct, the cylinder/recoil shield gap should be 0.04" and the gap behind the 45 Colt round should be .01". My 455 functions fine with both 455 and 45 Colt ammunition.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Not quite correct Jim. The civilian proofing (and consequent marking) were legally required before the gun could be sold in the civilian market (as distinct from the military) in the UK. The "Not English Make" was part of the proof marking and had nothing to do with export.

Presumably the Proof House thought that the gun buying public would not know that foreign makes were not made in England!

Peter

I suppose this would be a good place to show the following response I received when documenting my RAMC marked Triple Lock:

This offers another possibility of just where the OP's gun was between the Wars. It could have been residing in some ex-officers kit and either turned in at a later date or just sold to a dealer by the officer or his heirs......

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Peter and Dean,

Thank you both!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Gary,

Deadin probably answered your question in one sentence above. The same trick Colt used to shoot 38 & 41 Colt modern inside lubricated bullets in their old barrels designed for heeled bullet ammo.

To my knowledge from references and my own barrel slugging, 455 TL Barrels, groove .457" and bore .447" dimensions are the same as the 455 MK II 455 HE 2nd Model barrel dimensions and so are the 454 chamber throats.

Also from references and my own barrel slugging, S&W 45 ACP and 45 Colt barrel dimensions are the same, groove of .451" and bore of .445" (Less of a spread than 455 most likely for shooting jacketed bullets.)

A 454 bullet is going to fit the 455 barrel snugger than 451-452 bullets and mitigate the chance of stripping the rifling with softer bullets or hotter loads (not a good idea anyway in a 455 cyl.) So yes I agree the 454 bullets are the best for 455 barrels with the 454 cyl chamber throats.

I suspect ACP jacketed bullets nominally sized at .451" and with their higher pressure, would show the least accuracy in a 455 barrel. But I haven't shot ACP or Colt jacketed bullets/rounds in my 455 TL so that's just my speculation based on deductive reasoning.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I also have a 455 Triple lock that was converted to fire 45 Colts via reaming and a bit of countersinking for the rim. I really like it, but I wish the British hadn't be so handy at making and using punches. If they had spend the same amount of time and money making guns they wouldn't have had such a bad shortage. Mine has many of the same as yours.

Resurrected for fresh eyes!

Jim

This is the first time I have seen the S&W specification for .455 barrel rifling.
Do you mind if I ask what the source of this information is? Also at the risk of topic drift do you have the dimensions of the S&W .450 or .455 chamber.

Regards

AlanD

It is known that bullets were .455" to .456" for the Mark I and Mark II. It is also known that the proper groove measurement for almost all SAAMI documented bores are .001" under-bored, so Jim's dimensions of .457" to .458" would be large as compared to standard for a .455" bullet. Problem is there are no SAAMI specs for the .455 Mark II. Smith & Wesson was manufacturing a 45 ACP revolver for the US military at the same time of the British contract. The bullet for the 45 ACP was .452" and the standard SAAMI dimensions for the barrel were .442" bore and .450" groove, so groove diameter was .002" smaller than the bullet.

The 44 Special was another big caliber HE cartridge for S&W. The groove dimension for this caliber was the same size as the bullet, .429". The bore was .417".

After reading a thread about this topic about 3 years ago, I tried to figure out if caliber conversions of the 455 Mark II included any changes in bore? I slugged a 45 Colt conversion, a 45 ACP conversion, and an original .455 bore. All were almost identical, .445" bore and .454" groove. I believe that Jim found his information in an American Rifleman magazine??

Bore Size on .455?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Correct, from the American Rifleman back when Gen. Julian Hatcher was still on the staff of "Dope Bag."

He states, "While Smith & Wesson do[es] not ordinarily catalog guns chambered for the .45 Colt cartridge, they have on occasion made them and they list the dimensions, which are exactly the same as they use for their .455 cartridge, as follows: groove diameter--.457 to .458 inch; bore diameter--.447 to .448 inch; 5 lands and grooves, right hand twist; grooves--.144 inch wide, lands--.1368 inch."

And goes on to state that the measurements were taken from "...the official drawings furnished by the Colt Manufacturing Company, by Smith & Wesson, and by Webley & Scott, Ltd., giving the dimensions and tolerances for all their barrels."

This information, including that of Colt and Webley & Scott, was further checked by measuring "Actual bore and groove dimensions on several guns from our collection..." and then lists their results. Evidently, the only Smith in their collection was a M-1917: groove--.451”, bore--.445”. The other six revolvers checked were .455 Colts, Webleys and Enfields.

[Pre war] Smith barrels for 45 Colt chamberings (this does not pertain to post war and current Smith barrels).
See Roy’s post here: Bore diameter on 45 Colt S&W revolvers

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Which issue of American Rifleman was the article in please?

Regards

AlanD

Sorry, I don't know that.

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Jim
S&WCA #819