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09-15-2019, 11:45 PM
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Cogsworth and Harrison conversion - Range report added
I picked up a Cogswell & Harrison converted Victory model at the gun show this weekend. It is in very good condition, and being converted to 38 Special makes it easier to find ammo. I see the prices people are asking for these on the gunjoker, but they can't really be worth $500 and up can they?
Last edited by Dvus; 09-24-2019 at 11:32 PM.
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09-16-2019, 12:49 AM
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As far as it being a .38 Special, welllll sort of. On all of these revolvers I've seen C&H simply reamed out the .38 S&W chambers enough to accommodate .38 Special cartridges. Since the S&W cases are a bit larger in diameter than the Specials the C&H's I've had experience with end up with fired cases "swollen" at the old .38 S&W section. The barrel bore is also usually a bit oversized for .38 Special, .360 versus .357. If you intend to fire it with .38 Specials have a gunsmith check it out first to be on the safe side.
Best Regards,
ADP3
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09-16-2019, 01:56 AM
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NO, they are not worth $500, to anyone who knows what they are and has any common sense.
I wouldn't buy one at all.
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09-16-2019, 03:53 AM
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The C&H conversions are among the best modified Victorys. But they are still no more than 200 plus guns, and it would make little sense to pay 300 or more, since you start finding original guns around that price level. There are many conversions on offer online with high fantasy prices, mostly reflecting either a misinformed seller or hope for an uninformed buyer.
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09-16-2019, 06:28 AM
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To the OP:
Considering that you just bought one in an arms length transaction, you should be the best judge of the market price. What did you pay for this thing?
Curl
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09-16-2019, 07:08 AM
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Asking prices are meaningless. I.e. : I'm selling "safe queen: Rohm , asking only $759.
What was the asking price for the C&H conversion at the gun show? (Definition of gun show : GunBroker with walls and a roof.)
Why the derisive pseudonym for GunBroker?
Last edited by Waveski; 09-16-2019 at 07:11 AM.
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09-16-2019, 08:05 AM
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I’ve seen references here to some of the higher end Brit gunmakers doing conversions on those abundant Victory Models just post WW II, but the ones that were financially attractive as well as desirable were mostly those that were conversions to 22 LR and had adjustable sights... sort of a low end K-22. The “conversions” that simply involve reaming the 38 S&W chambers to sloppy 38 Spl have little to no intrinsic value or collectibility. Un- altered Victories are much more desirable. JMHO, but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Froggie
Last edited by Green Frog; 09-16-2019 at 08:07 AM.
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09-16-2019, 02:15 PM
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Yes, I knew about the conversions prior to my trade transaction, about the sloppy chambers and bore diameter. I checked it out thoroughly and found the chambers to have been within spec. Since I reload my own ammo in .38, 3 thousandths in bullet diameter won't be an issue. The finish is in very good shape as are the stocks, and mechanics are perfect, so I expect this to be a good shooter. As I have barely north of $200 in it I considered it a fair deal, and a good companion to my "Bavarian Municipal Police" Victory model.
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09-16-2019, 04:30 PM
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Dvus, as you describe the gun and your examination and purchase of it, I don’t have anything more to say in the negative vein. Even as I was reading about it, I was thinking that if you took some good 38 Spl brass and dedicate it to this one gun, then neck sized it only to avoid repeated (and unnecessary) repeated working of the loader part of the case, it should do great. Enjoy it!
Froggie
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09-17-2019, 02:52 AM
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The first S&W I owned was a Victory Model I bought at Wheelus, Lybia in 1962. It had been converted to 38 special by reaming the cylinder and sleeves in 38 special inserted. I used it until the Wheelus Rod and Gun Club got a shipment of M-28s in. I paid $15.00 for the Victory and $70,00 for the 357 Mag. I have no idea who may have done the conversion.
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Last edited by austintexas; 09-17-2019 at 02:53 AM.
Reason: add information
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09-17-2019, 05:27 PM
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That sleeved conversion was done by someone willing to go the extra mile for a good quality build. You don’t remember whether the barrel was sleeved as well, do you?
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09-18-2019, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog
That sleeved conversion was done by someone willing to go the extra mile for a good quality build. You don’t remember whether the barrel was sleeved as well, do you?
Froggie
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On a .38 S&W to Special conversion, sleeving the barrel would make little sense.
Most of the difference making reaming necessary is in the case lenghth and circumference; the few 1/100ths of an inch difference in bullet diameter are so inconsequential that at ordinary handgun distances, barrel differences don’t matter much, if at all. Visions of .38 Special bullets bouncing down a .38 S&W barrel are exaggerations.
This doesn’t mean it might not have been done, but folks worried about such tolerances usually opted for a (much cheaper) replacement barrel.
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09-18-2019, 02:59 PM
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Does anybody have pictures of a .38-.38 sleeved cylinder?
I've seen the .22 conversions and once saw (pictured) a .44 Special with cracked forcing cone that was lined to .38, but it hardly seems worthwhile for .007" on a $40 gun.
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09-18-2019, 03:14 PM
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As far as I can remember the barrel was not sleeved. It shot OK, not a target gun but it was what I could afford on Airman second pay.
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09-18-2019, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson
Does anybody have pictures of a .38-.38 sleeved cylinder?
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Someone posted the photo attached a few years ago in this forum. I created the snip with the highlights. I saved both. My apologies to the original poster, whose name I didn‘t record.
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09-18-2019, 04:01 PM
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I also have a sleeved 0.38 together with the barrel cut to 4" and a long foresight marked Parker-Hale. Another well-known UK gunmaker. By spending $30 on having a crown put on the gun, it is fun to play with and is my "hide-out" pistol if we have to "run rapidly". I think I paid about $140 for it many years ago in GA.
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09-25-2019, 12:29 AM
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Took the old girl to the range today with some factory Winchester 158gr. ammo. With the target set at 10 yards and a center hold, the first six shots grouped in to about 4 inches, 8 inches below the bullseye. Case extraction was easy since the cases had a slight "bottleneck" to them. These "conversions" came with a new front sight installed, a tall wide base with a short and narrow blade on top. With the front sight base even with the top of the frame looking through the rear notch and the bullseye on top of the blade, the second six shot group clustered in and around the center of the target, again around a 4" group. Using the same hold at the 20 yard line, the third group opened up to about 7" also around the center of the target. Moving back to 10 yards, I went to double action using the same hold and managed to do better with a 2 1/2" group. The remaining rounds went down the tube of another revolver that I brought along for comparison. All in all, while the conversions may not be the best quality gun money can buy, they were a viable, inexpensive alternative in a better cartridge. A lot of history is attached to these guns and I personally think that there should be one in every Victory collector's arsenal.
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09-25-2019, 08:57 AM
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Dvus, you summed it up best when staying that while it wasn't the best gun money could buy, a converted Victory gave the post-War shooter on a budget a viable, inexpensive revolver. While collectors today look askance at them, these post-War bargain guns probably kept a lot of interest in handgun shooting available for the masses, many of whom couldn't justify spending a bundle for a hobby as they were busy raising us "Baby Boomers" with all the costs that entailed!
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09-25-2019, 09:24 PM
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I'm pretty sure the .38 Special bullet coming out the barrel of one of them will kill as good as a .38 Special coming out of much higher priced guns. I think they are a good value for a person that doesn't have or want to spend much money for a gun.
I shot several of them in the 60s and never had a case to split. I have one with a 3 in. barrel and I've reloaded the cases a couple of times and don't see any reason why they won't load several more times. Larry
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09-25-2019, 09:43 PM
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I have a C&H conversion and they did an outstanding job.
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very little expansion and they slide out of the cylinder quite well.
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09-25-2019, 09:52 PM
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I just picked up a Parker Hale conversion and they sleeved the cylinder. I haven't fired it yet.
I paid $299 for it on Gunbroker a month ago.
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Last edited by Targets Guy; 09-25-2019 at 09:54 PM.
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09-26-2019, 08:43 AM
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Targets Guy, the C&H is a perfect example of making something good out of “surplus.” On the spectrum of quality for the conversions done on the Victory Models post-war, the C&H ranks with the best IMHO. The PH has some promise as well, as they did good work, if maybe a tier lower in quality. How about some more pix? You know how much we love pictures here! 
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09-26-2019, 11:37 AM
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09-26-2019, 12:45 PM
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Cogsworth and Harrison Conversion
In the middle 1950s I had a Webley Mk VI .455 that had been converted to.38spl.
The bore and chambers had been sleeved
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09-26-2019, 08:14 PM
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Thanks, Mike! I recognized that distinctive front sight rib in the first picture before I even saw the close-up. Those completely checkered stocks are also pretty distinctive... they actually look kinda Colt-Isn, don't they? That is yet another example of English gun makers of the post-War period taking what they had available readily and making a quality upgrade for the American market. Lemons to lemonade or sow's ear to silk purse, huh? 
Thanks for the additional pix! We LOOOVE pictures here! 
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09-26-2019, 08:16 PM
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PS to last: from what I'm hearing in the news today, we need to avoid those silk purses as the sow's ears may carry salmonella! 
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09-27-2019, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targets Guy
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And if you have the barrel "chamfered" with about an 11 degree slope, then it will group very nicely, which is what I did with mine (referred to earlier). Dave_n
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