Greetings!

The LGS has a .455 (unconverted) Triple Lock for $1295. The serial is 129XX with an assembly number of 73XX. The bore is perfect, gap acceptable, but the finish is worn (maybe an old refinish?) and lock-up is a bit loser than I would like, but not awful. There are no evidence of foreign service markings. The previous owner shot it on occasion, and the side plate & screws reflect some hobby gunsmithing.

Run back with wallet or run away?

Thanks!

Hunter

Well lets see. Gun is loose, re-fin?, screws that dont look good?
Instead of running either way, why not just walk back and look again?
$1295 is a lot of money in my world. Does it look collector grade?
This is in your court. I dont know what I would do, because I have owned them in the past, then moved them on. Sorry. My best.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

How many other triple locks have you seen for sale in the last year or so? At what prices?

I really don't know what I would do. I guess I would have to see it. They just don't come up for sale in my area.

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You're shy a few manners.

Very limited supply. What are you willing to spend and what are you going to be happy with?

Hi Hunter (no pun intended),

It's a Triple Lock.
It's a commercial TL.
It's an original 455 un-modified/un-converted TL.
It's worn or re-finished and worn again.
It's not a #1 or #2 category, it's a #3, one of the last 455 TLs made, and one of the very few shipped commercially.

These are not for everyone, and I haven't seen it, but with original gold medallion checkered stocks; it would be mine by now, even if I couldn't negotiate the price down somewhat.

It was produced at the end of the British Service Revolver contract during the WW I, but not shipped to them. Made from a 44 Spl Hand Ejector - 1st Model, see category #3 below for the very small quantity of these produced and even smaller quantity shipped commercial below.

There are three basic categories of .455 (Webley) Mk II chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I.

The 3 categories of .455 Mk II Hand Ejectors (actually all chamber reamed long enough to also accommodate the longer .455 Webley Mk I cartridge per the British contract. So the model name is a bit of a misnomer), are:

1. “.44 HE 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’ converted to .455 chambering: 812* factory reconfigured, unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown, most or all likely .44 Spl, 666 for the British #1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the extra 146 in serial range #9858-10007 for the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].

NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it’s unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.

2. “.455 Mk II HE 1st Model”, TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15; thus creating a possible ~ 68* duplicate serial #s of the 812 “.44 HE 1st Model TLs”, also in .455 in 1. above.

*About Duplicate 44 HE series serial #s with Brit contract series S/Ns:

Duplicate numbers of the 666 .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (#1104-10417 in the 44 HE range - not all inclusive, are known and published) + 146 (#9858-10007 .44 HE range - not all inclusive, are published as well), can exist with 68 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (#1–5461 in the Brit contract # range), and with the .455 2nd Models (#5462 and up to #15375 - the last .44 HE 1st Model serial #) in the Brit range.

3. “.455 Mk II HE 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock, but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and ".455 HE 1st Model TL" of category 1. and 2. .455s respectively. The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17. By Feb 1916 724* were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. Another 15** in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916. The Canadian military also bought 14,500*** .455 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].

“As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .455 HE 1st Model, Triple Lock frames [#2. above with .455 chambering]. These guns will be numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett

11/3/15 “In April, 1916, the Factory found enough parts to assemble 691 Triple Lock 455s. They were assembled from April to Oct of 1916. They were numbered in the 44 HE series. All I have seen are numbered from the 12 to 14,000's. [sold in 1916 and 1917 - Many were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, MO]
Some letter as being commercial sales, but I have long suspected that S&W simply slid many into the last of the British shipments at the standard price for the 455-2nd Models. I say that because I have observed several now with Brit ordnance marks and/or commercial proofs.” Lee Jarrett

NOTE: in the SWCA database there are two entries for .455 TL's with serial numbers 12740 and 12747. Both entries list shipment to Shapleigh HW; Jinks' entry states that 325 units were shipped on 12/29/17.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks guys! I will see if the shop will allow me to snap a couple of pics.

Here's my $1,200 refinished unconverted .455 TL, s/n 12742. When it walked by the gun show table I was helping with in Jauary 2014 I snagged it and the two boxes of Fiocchi ammo that came with it. I removed the period correct but damaged and unmarked service stocks and put the Grashorn stocks on for the heck of it. I kinda like the look.
TL .455 12742 Grashorns.jpg TL .455 12742 right.jpg
The second photo shows the TL with period stocks repaired by DW FAN.

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Tom in AZ
Respect the Dingbat

If I understand this correctly then the frames of the 691 "late" TL's (s/n 12-14,000 range) were New Old Stock .44 HE frames assembled in 1916 to make .455's, correct? Were the cylinder/frame window dimensions of .455 TL's different than .44 Special TL's?

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Tom in AZ
Respect the Dingbat

Tom,

That's an excellent question.

In Lee's quote above, he refers to scrounging up 44 TL frames and I'd have to believe they were of the same dimensions because we know of no 455 TL frames with different dimensions from the 44 TL frames.

From all my research, and measurements from my one and only 455 TL category #2 in my post, I find no differences between it and two 44 TLs.

I do find one change in dimensions for the 455 2nd Models: the cylinder ctr pin hole in the extractor star is reduced .020” and the associated Ext Rod rear tip is reduced .020” in diameter from the TL versions, documented in Neal & Jinks Pg. 215-16.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

PICS!

The shop owner let me snap these pics today.

The patina of the side plate is interesting. It looks like perhaps the sidle plate was removed and lightly buffed with a soft wheel, causing the finish wear on the very perimeter edge of the plate. The screws also have been somewhat bungled from using the wrong type of driver bit.

The bore is absolutely perfect with high shine, but the grips do not appear to be numbered (or the pencil marks have been erased over time).

I was probably being a bit harsh on the mechanics, as the the lock-up and end shake are identical to an almost unused .455 second model converted to .45 Colt in the same shop.

Do I need to take this one home?

Attached Images

	455 TL Pic 1.jpg (139.8 KB, 476 views)
	455 TL Pic 2.jpg (137.2 KB, 484 views)

$1295 is too high for this one, based on your photographs.

I'd have to ask: On what do you place more importance? Cosmetics or mechanics? Or that somewhat intangible thing we call "character"?

$1295, plus tax. Here, that'd be pushing it close to or a bit over $1400. Don't know about your state.

Personally, I don't have that kind of money in loose funds.

If I did, I'd make an offer. If the guy didn't take it, I'd still buy it at the asking price. I'm a sucker for guns like this.

You can always get more money.

That's quite a lot, but I think I would buy it if I could scrape up the money. They just don't come along very much.

I am reminded of a thread from years ago, when TLs did not cost nearly what they do now. Someone had located a TL for sale that had a nickel refinish and he was wondering if it was worth the $400 to $500 asking price.

Guys who had a collector mindset told him to pass on it. My advice was to buy it since it was a TL. I wonder what it would sell for now? Not that I was advising him to buy it and flip it. My attitude was that if someone wants a TL, that's a TL. Best of luck whatever you decide.

By the way, what does he want for the second model converted to .45 Colt?

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You're shy a few manners.

Is it just me, or did the photo dissappear ?
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I've been following it with interest, hoping to learn something.
To me, the photo showed a hand ejector with some great character. ...just the sort that speak to me.

Regards,
Bruce

Edit: must have been me, I can see the photos again.

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Regards,
Bruce

I must confess that I had "Triplelock" on the brain when the refin'd nickel .455 example came along, and that I had just been discussing the subject with a fellow S&WCA member. Had it been posted in the forum classifieds, auctioned on GB, or on display at a major sporting goods retailer or GS I'm fairly certain that I would have passed. I don't regret my impulsive decision as it spurred my collecting interest and led to acquiring other TL's down the road.

If this particular TL is within your collecting interest and you have the scratch then it is worth consideration. There is another thread discussing condition and value of a .44 TL here: Trying to understand a Triple Lock I inherited., see post #17 specifically. Perhaps reading this will help you decide whether or not to make an offer. Good Luck!

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Tom in AZ
Respect the Dingbat

I'd probably be more interested in the nicer condition .45 Colt conversion... the .455 is bordering on being rough...sometimes you need to look at a firearm in full natural daylight to see all the flaws...in your pix I can see several & am wondering what remains to be found in sunlight.

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

See if the shop will come down on the price. I have never owned a triple lock so I'd be likely to get it if the shop will come down a bit.

I paid $1150 recently for a non-factory refinished (but pretty well done) TLT. Definitely no buyer's remorse. I've maybe only ever seen a couple other TL's in person so snatching this one up when it was available and I had the cash was definitely worth while even if it was the most I ever dropped on a firearm.

Agreed! Many of these .455 Webley Triple Locks, converted or otherwise, tend to be in fairly good shape. I guess the Brits and Canadians took great pride in these revolvers and kept them in fairly decent shape. Unfortunately, this one led a less-refined life than most.

Sharpening my skills...how would you grade that ?

10%, 20%, or 30% ?

To sharpen your skills, best to practice judging directly. Ask your local gun store, if you have one, to look at their using copy of the Blue Book of gun values and refer to the finish ranking photos in the front.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

One of the best things I have learned here is...You can't pay too much...You may perhaps buy a little to soon. If you can get in where it doesn't pinch too hard, the money will work itself out in time.

All,

I am going to pass on this one.

If you want to know the shop, just send me a PM- it was still for sale as of yesterday.

Unfortunately, the 2nd Model .45 Colt in great shape was converted from .455 by somebody using the equivalent of an old Harbor Freight lathe or drill press- very rough.

Hi, just got here today, but I have very recently obtained a .455 TL in fine condition. S.N. 12910, crane/frame assembly #7431. There is also the main s.n. 12910 inside the ejector rod shroud just below the detent as well as on the rear face of the cylinder. Grips are matching also. The revolver shows virtually no real use, the recoil shield surface without recoil markings from any firing.
I paid $1,580.00 for this beauty and am content, but reading the information on what guns with which serial numbers took time for me to adjust to. This firearm has no British markings, is a commercial model, except with a lanyard loop. Sounds like it is a group 3 gun, according to what I read, or ?
I'll attach some photos, and glad to be here.

Attached Images

	triplock3 (3).JPG (115.3 KB, 169 views)
	triplock1 (2).JPG (112.5 KB, 149 views)
	triplock4 (2).JPG (91.6 KB, 125 views)

Welcome to the forum!

And what an excellent acquisition to enter in style with for your first post!

I completely agree with your assessment; it's a 455 TL from the third production period, sold commercially and numbered in the late 44 TL serial range, not the British contract serial range. They were all made with lanyard swivels in accordance with the contract.

It shows no signs of re-finish that I can observe in the photos, the side plate seam is perfect for example, but the blue is dull. All of the 455s had a bright blue commercial finish.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! The first time I looked at your pictures, I had the same thought about the finish as Jim. I went back and looked again with the picture enlarged. Other than the dull finish, I can see no signs of a refinish. I have a commercial .455 2nd model that shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in December 1917 and the finish is similar to yours. I know for a fact this gun has not been refinished.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

The blued hammer and trigger makes me lean towards a refinish. Great looking gun.

I thought the hammer and trigger were a little odd not showing some case coloring. But, I didn't think they were blued. I attributed the look to the picture quality.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Well, I have done my share of hot bluing, including a few sessions with an old smith on salt bluing. This TL of mine is original finish, I have no doubts.
The one thing I didn't mention is that very lightly inscribed on the front of the grip frame behind the trigger guard is "USO 2678," but not an official marking that i can tell. If you weren't looking for it, you'd never know it was there, but I haven't a clue what it represents.
I do have an HE 2nd model that, on the bottom of the left grip is stamped "H. Oliver.seal" I'm pretty sure he was an arms inspector.

Fine looking gun. Like someone else already stated, a dead giveaway (for a refinish)on Smiths is to look at the hammer and trigger to see if they are still case colored. Most refinishers nickel or blue them thus revealing it is indeed a refinish. It's a damn fine one indeed if in fact it is refinished.

Very sorry to not return for so long, but I've been very sick. Much better now.
At any rate, the hammer and trigger are case hardened, not blued, but they are both mostly of the reddish brown color often found on some case hardened pieces, and look wrong in the photos. This is an all original firearm.

Now, I could check, but, is it kosher to offer this fine gun on the S&W Forum for sale? As I said, I've been quite sick, and have some crazy bills. Thanks

Yes, perfectly ok to post a Wanted to Sell/Trade ad here in the correct Forum category, you do have to name a price.

Glad to hear you are on the mend.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Another indicator of a refinish is the TL cam plate the sticks thu the front of the frame to the right side in its mortise. The cam plate is also blue; that too should be case colored.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I would wait on finding one in much better condition. I don't care how seldom they are seen for sale I wouldn't pay even $600 for it. To each their own.

I imagine Shapleigh Hardware was a distributor of sorts? 1105 shipped to Shapleigh and further distributed to general stores within a few hundred mile radius of St Louis. Is this thinking correct? Or, would distribution have been more national??

Or, did Shapleigh Hardware simply sell from stock until all were sold? However, seems hard to believe they would sit on inventory that long. If two were sold a week, it would take until about 1940 to deplete inventory.

Which one do you reference? The originally posted revolver, by .455_Hunter or the one referenced later by 455Lover?

I had originally stated, last year, on the 22nd of July at precisely 5:56 pm, that I believed $1295 to be too much for this one (the one posted by .455_Hunter). In the last year, based on what I am seeing, Triple Locks have appreciated substantially and I no longer believe that $1295 is too much for this one. It's "in the ballpark".

This one is probably long gone. If not, I'd offer $1150 and try to get it for $1200. That's assuming this one is not refinished.

If refinished, it puts it in the under $1,000 range. You state you wouldn't pay even $600 for it. I suggest that it would be a rare Triple Lock that isn't worth $600 these days. By "rare", I use this term very loosely, meaning the Triple Lock in the bottom 1% of condition. It would just about have to be run over by a steam roller not to be worth $600. Indeed, it is a challenge to find ANY N frame revolver in the $500 range these days. And the Triple Lock is the finest N frame revolver ever manufactured and this will likely remain forever true.

How do I know this? Well, a British Contract Triple Lock recently came up for sale on this forum at $1550. It was in similar condition to the subject matter of this thread. I thought, clearly overpriced, believing it to be worth $1250. It sold in less than 24 hours.

The one posted by 455Lover: I believe it to be original and unmolested.