As posted in previous threads I recently purchased a Model 1917 (Commercial) at a local auction. Estimate the manufacture year as 1929. (It has been refinished-Grips are original-all numbers match) In checking GB and other on-line auction sites and local gun shows all I have seen are Military or Brazilian contract 1917's. I assume the military contract ones are in greater supply as many were stored and then sold as surplus. Commercial ones were in private hands or police departments, etc. and likely lived a hard life and thus may be in shorter supply now.

I would assume therefore than a commercial model in the same condition as a military contact model would bring a higher price?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

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Not necessarily. The military guns are much more common but they span two distinct types of collections, military and S&W revolvers.

The re-finish however is the most important aspect of this gun's price. If it was a factory re-finish from before the war it may not have reduced the value much, but I can't really tell from that picture who did the job. It doesn't look right to me at first glance. A bit too rounded, a bit over polished.

Better pictures would really be needed to tell for sure, but from that one I would expect this gun has almost no collector value left, it's just a shooter.

I've never had the cash to be a real collector, so I collect "shooters".

I like your 1917.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I am far from expert, and there are members here that know 1,000 X more than I do about these guns.

I have been putting together a small collection for 3 or 4 years now and I watch for them, although I rarely attend a gun show and do most of my buying off the internet. This is just my opinion and the very next post will have an equally valid idea about how they rank.

With the caveat that "condition is everything", I would rank like-condition 1917's in this order in terms of demand, and therefore the prices they command: 1) post-war Transitions (something like 1,000 revolvers, so scarcity in play), 2)pre-war Commercials (1930's medallion service grips or pre-war Magnas), 3)pre-war Commercials (1920's Army stamped frames, checkered stocks without medallions), 4)US with dished grips, grooved hammer, 5)US with plain grips, non-grooved hammer, 6)Brazilian Export revolvers (the post war might be a little more scarce, but I don't know if I would pay a differential based on pre-war shipped or post-war shipped.

If I remember correctly, I once saw a picture of an original box for a US Army marked 1917. I may be dreaming, because I would normally capture a picture like that, but I can't find it if I did. Finding a boxed Army, if one exists, would send the value into the stratosphere IMHO. Commercial 1917 boxes are pretty rare, and an original box might well trump condition in terms of what I might be willing to pay.

I had an Army 1917 or two when I got interested enough to start a small collection. I have looked at 20 US Army guns for every Commercial I have seen for sale. The numbers bear this out, since the Serial Numbers run from 001 to 170,000 or so for Armys, and the last 1917 Transitions were numbered in the S210,000 range, so something like 40,000 Commercials and several thousand of those were the Brazilian export guns.

Hope that helps.

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Cy

Thanks for input. The re-finish on my 1917 is a matte black but very professionally done and I was aware of it when I purchased it at auction when bidding was very low. Evidenced by signs of previous pitting under grips. Bought it as a shooter. A previous owner spent some money on the refinish to my benefit!! I only collect handguns that I can shoot occassionally as you can see by this photo.

There is currently a 1917 Commercial in excellent condition with original maroon colored box on Gunbroker. Last I checked the bid was around $1,200.

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Yeah, but you're not supposed to refer to auctions until they are over. You might be fixin' to get yore knuckle popped. 😊

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Cy

Now that it's over you will note it didn't stay at $1200.🙂 A very nice revolver and a very rare box...and two fellows who were very interested in owning it.

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Cy

Thanks for the advice!

I lucked into a very nice reblued Brazilian model last year. The beauty of getting one that has already been "molested" is that now the door is open to you to basically do whatever you want without feeling any guilt about messing up something with collectible value. For example as much as I like the 5.5" barrel I'd prefer it to be 4" and while were at it lets put a nice ramp front sight and have it registered to be on target. The door is open and now I have a great little pistol that a breeze to carry and a pleasure to shoot, they are great shooters by the way. If your a reloader you can mess around with bullet weights and powder charges to get the right round that does what you want from plinking to defense. I think you'll have a good time with your new pistol, take it out and shoot it.
Most of the commercials I've seen were finished to a more polished sheen, if it had alot of surface wear before being refinished that could explain why they went with a dull military style finish. Are all the roll marks easily seen?

I saw a 1917 listed yesterday but it was a smooth-bore 45 LC shot shell? I was not aware they were sold in that configuration.

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Existimo ergo sum armis

It is most likely a conversion. The late Major George Nonte USA wrote about that particular gunsmithing project.

With the smoothbore barrel, it is probably illegal.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Out of curiosity and without a full understanding of the NFA ruling...is the only reason shotshells fired from pistols are legal is because the barrels are rifled? I have built shotshells for .44 Spl/Magnum pistols and .357/38 special pistols for years from shotshells caps provided by Speer and loaded with 7.5 shot.
By the way, how do you get a 2.5" 410 shell into a 1.5" 1917 cylinder? I would have to agree that modifying a 1917 to work like a Judge firing .410 shotshells out of a smoothbore barrel is just looking for trouble.

Kinman: Yes, it is the rifling. Thompson/Center went round and round with BATF on this years back with their Contender and the Hotshot shotshells they made for them. The shotshells were loaded into regular brass but the shot capsules were as long or longer than the brass. The .45 Colt hotshot barrel wound shoot regular 2-1/2 inch .410 shells and BATF argued that made it a short barreled shotgun and thus illegal if the owner didn't have the federal tax taken care of for short barrel shotguns. It went high up in federal court and the court ruled in T/C's favor because the Hotshot barrels were rifled.

Actually there are a good many handguns out there with smoothbore barrels that aren't short barrel shotguns. Before the NFA of 1934, Stevens, H&R and Ithaca made factory handguns that fired shotshells. They are in a separate category called, I believe, Any Other Weapons, and the transfer tax is only $5 instead of the $200 for a short barrel rifle, shotgun or full auto gun.

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Tom
1560

"By the way, how do you get a 2.5" 410 shell into a 1.5" 1917 cylinder?"

Nonte and others recommended cutting down .308, .30-06, etc and using them as brass shot shells. You can get a fair amount of shot into cut-down rifle brass.

Use moon clips for head spacing.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Great info here! Thanks very much.
So I have an unmolested commercial specimen with the first 3 digits being 181. Checkered service grips with medallions. Would I be correct that it’s a transitional model, dating to about 1930?

I have two of the commercial versions. One is sn: 179459 and the other 180632. There were only 1200 of the commercial version produced, and many left over components/parts from the military Model of 1917 were used in the production.

1917 Commercial ship dates are all over the calendar. Ones that were made just after the military SN range, or even those made from surplus Army frames, have been shown to sell years or a decade later than a later SN. So the only way to know an age is a letter.

Not sure about the “transitional” reference - the term for N frames usually goes with post WW II production revolvers.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Lots of good info above on production numbers.

Regarding the shot loads, I use cut down 308 Winchester cases for my 45 ACP revolvers and semi-autos. I've often wanted a smooth bore barrel for these shot loads when trapesing around in the desert, but I've always been too wary of the Federal regulations and thus suffer the open shot patterns past 6 feet with the rifled barrels.

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Keep your powder dry.

I see several sets of numbers for this model and I have often wondered about this and questioned the numbers listed in Neal & Jinks book. First, it is known that there were 210,000 made. It is also noted in the book that 175,000 were made for use by the US Army. lastly, Brazil got 25,000 in 1938.

Easy math tells us that a maximum of 10,000 could have been made for the commercial market, so less than 5% of the production of the Model of 1917 were sold to the public. So what about the book and the alternate sets of numbers tossed around, which is more accurate?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I have one that is unique. SN is 9852. On the barrel it's marked
Smith &Wesson Not English Make BV BP NP (inside circles
45 A.R. with a crown on top)

Then on the frame where the barrel screws in it is stamped NOTENGLISHMAKE with a circled mess that looks like B8? with a crown on top.
Then down at the back of the trigger guard it has crossed swords with B5C where the blades cross.

I know it's 45 Auto Rim because I bought some and it works. You can't get 45 ACP in with the clips and close the cylinder. It shoots well and is tight but doesn't have the original grips. The finish is mottled on the barrel but decent on the frame. I don't know how to post pictures.

I may be wrong, but my take is that the auto-rim was developed after WWI for use in the 45 ACP revolvers so it could be shot in Model 1917s without the need for a clip. The options are to shoot 45 Auto-rim or get some clips and load three or six at a time using 45 ACP. I believe that every Model 1917 out there will chamber both without issue.

GUNS Magazine The .45 Auto Rim - GUNS Magazine

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I have no experience with 1917 revolvers but I know what I would buy given the choice of a commercial version vs one stamped US Property. All things being equal as far as condition I'm buying the military revolver. The same goes for a 1911. Although the production numbers don't make that a logical choice. Might have something to do with the fact that I'm a vet. May not matter a great deal to a collector however.

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That's just somebody talkin.

It is often said that collectibles are worth more if multiple collecting groups want them. In the case of the Model 1917 US Army revolvers, both firearms collectors and military collectors want them so theoretically, the military 1917s should be in higher demand than non-military guns and worth more? I have not see enough commercial 1917s sell to know if that is true or not?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

While the military 1917 does span two groups of collectors, so does the commercial. The second group for the commercials is pretty small though, it's those who want a (usually low condition) commercial as a starting point for a correct Indiana Jones "Raiders" gun.
Mine happened to be found as a smoothbore conversion, so I had to work with the seller to make sure it wasn't that before I took possession, and then had to scrounge up a replacement barrel. At least I didn't have to wrestle with myself about modifying an original condition gun!