I was looking at that also, hes not using S&W property as best I can see (I'm not an expert or anything else for that matter), the Colt stuff, well that's a different story. I wonder who if anyone owns the Colt rights?

The maroon boxes, a funny thing is someplace I have a maroon box. It looks just like a S&W maroon box, the color is a hair off from the ones I have but close enough to be faded or just a dye lot thing. The thing is its old, but never had anything to do with guns, firearms, or S&W. I forgot what came in it but something like ladies gloves I seem to recall.

I understand S&W made the blue boxes in house, what about the gold or maroon? After seeing the glove box I would have guessed S&W just bought the maroon boxes from a box supplier?

Trademarks and patents are only as good as you enforce them..

Got some pics so we can judge

Sounds like he is just skating underneath the law here.

I would love to get nice reproduction boxes for my 15-3, 15-5, and 52-1.
Not looking to sell them. Just would like nice original looking boxes for them.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

I understand and agree with some, if not all, of your points BUT this is NOTHING NEW. It's been going on for over 100 years. If you think of vintage gun traders as used car salesman ... how does that vary your opinion ?

The point is, whether it was done in a fraudulent and deceitful manner ... or ... it was represented for exactly what it is.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I wonder if the print inside the box is copyrighted?

Also did any other revolver share that same size box? Maybe some Outdoorsmans or an other?

Reason I ask is it with these boxes that take a sticker on the end did S&W order them with the sticker or did they buy a bunch of different size boxes and put the stickers and stamp the inside themselves. On the gold boxes its obvious they were made with all info on them.

I hope everyone understands this is just a discussion / sounding board. I'm not angry with anyone and hope everyone takes these posts in the constructive manner that they were posted.

Smoke, gooood, fire, baaaaad ! Friend ?

Bottom line: LIES ABOUT BEING REPRODUCTIONS or represents the boxes as New Old stock.... BAD !!! I agree, then he's a dirt bag.

DISCLOSES that HE SELLS REPRODUCTION BOXES ... no harm, no foul and he just may be "the" guy that plied himself to a niche market and made MILLIONS at it.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I thought if it was on the inter web it was true. Now I'm confused as usual. ;-).

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S&WCA #3012

That's his standard copy'n'paste answer to anyone who asks about the originality of the stuff he sells, to give the impression that his stuff is legitimate. I've seen it a dozen times or more on the Colt Forum, where he has been cussed and discussed ad nauseum for years. The members there have tried to get eBay and GunBroker to ban him without result - they apparently care only about their bottom line and as long as he sells stuff and they get their cut, it's all fine with them. The Colt Forum has tried to get Colt to prosecute him for using their intellectual property (logos and such) but they won't bother.

Bottom line - he is a liar and a fraud. It's been demonstrated numerous times on the Colt Forum. You can go there and search for ColtBoxMan, Blovit, Vikrant or fake box to find pertinent threads. He almost never gets negative feedback on eBay or GB because he provides a refund to anyone who complains, and those who don't complain are either nitwits who are willing to pay hundreds for a $20 fake box, or also liars and frauds who are putting together a "new in box" Python package or the like.

Perhaps now that it's S&W's ox that is being gored (a company with more resources than Colt) something will be done.

Trouble is he isn't costing S&W a dime. They are in businesses to sell new guns, not collectables and collectables accessories. This hurts legitimate collectors and dealers.

Yes he is a dirt bag.

Wrong! If he infringes on their copyright they will be on him like ugly on a ape. No disrespect to apes, but you are ugly. I have seen it first hand. Why do you think these are being made where copyright and trademark laws mean nothing.

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Don Mundell

Sorry to say,EBay will do Nothing.

It's a simple fact of life that such activities exist. It's also a fact that no one on this forum can do a single thing to stop it. So what exactly is the point of debating this any further?

Your wrong. If he is violating copyrights of Smith & Wesson they will go after him. Read my previous post about the clothing line.

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Don Mundell

I think that it helps us clarify our own ethical positions on these sorts of issues as well. Frankly, even though I had seen these products being peddled for colt products, I had just never given the issue much thought. These discussions allow us to exchange viewpoints, and flex our sense of ethics, and formulate some sort of reasoned ethos through articulating various perspectives. I hope that I have perhaps grown as a result of reading the views of posters who I respect, even when they are at odds with each other.

I know that there are legal issues at play, but the ethics of the thing is perhaps even more evasive.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

When I purchase a firearm, I buy the gun, not the box (or the story). I personally think people who buy boxes (or labels), because they think they must have them to go with the gun, are deluding themselves. They are naive in the extreme. I don't understand the rationale. With VERY rare exception, IMO, the box/label/paper add no value to the gun. The most valuable guns in the world have NO box or paper. Does that diminish their value? Quit buying this stuff and the product will disappear. Or if you just want a neat conversation piece, buy it with the full understanding it is a reproduction.

Actually, an original box and accessories adds quite a bit of value to already valuable guns, much the same way an original build sheet, window sticker and factory accessories adds additional value to already valuable collector automobiles. Furthermore, many of the most valuable guns ever sold have included the boxes and accessories. See here: The 7 Most Expensive Guns Ever Sold - TheRichest

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SWHF #448

Can someone post some comparison pics of these spurious Colt and S&W boxes? I would like to see the difference. Im looking at 70 years old, about 55 years in this hobby. I have never seen a box that did not have some little bit of wear and tear. I have owned some perfect guns and stocks. My uncle has a perfect cased C-93 Borchardt, that has never seen day light. It has sat on a shelf in his study. I would think, after a few years of collecting, you develop a 6th sense. If it dont look right, walk away. Best

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I'm probably going to take some flak for this but here goes...

First, let me say I am not trying to defend this guy in any way. Period...

We generally agree that there are probably reproduction boxes. I say probably because neither you or I know for a fact these are not new. An opinion would stand for nothing in court.

These are being represented as "new old stock" not reproductions. I am not a lawyer. Someone give me the legal definition of "new old stock". I don't want a lay opinion, what you think it means. I know what it means to me and you know what it means to you. My neighbor down the road probably thinks differently than either of us.

Regarding copyright and trademark infringement. You can look this up yourself for the details but I will give you the 30,000 foot view:
IF S&W even took the time to copyright the logos and brochures, under the copyright act of 1909, they were only valid for 28 years. An extension could be filed before the expiration and they would be extended another 28 years. At that point, they are in the public domain. The law is different for copyrights after 1978. But since these all seem to be older logos/information, those rules do not apply.

I also feel that Colt or S&W would have already pursued action against him if there was true copyright infringement.

Bottom line, yes there seems to be a great deal of indignation if not downright hatred for this guy. You are free to feel any way you choose. But don't be too quick to accuse him of any illegal activity. Maybe a bit unethical but I'm not sure it is illegal. Again, I am not a lawyer.

If you don't like these, don't buy them. No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you to buy. If you feel your indignation is simply protecting the naive simpleton who believes these are real and will double the value of his K22 shooter, forget it. The world is full of people like that and you can't protect them. As the old saying goes, caveat emptor. Or as PT Barnum said, "there's a sucker born every minute".

Get over it, move on. This whole thread seems a tempest in a teapot to me.

Another report sent to eBay.

Hello CATI from Texas, no flak here. Every luxury item has been faked.
The Chinese are making 18K Rolexes that are stumping the factory.
I still want to see some pics.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Photos of the boxes can be viewed via the eBay link posted in the beginning of the thread.

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SWHF #448

Regarding the debate here concerning this guy and counterfeits in general, it's obvious those with a "Who cares?" or "Get over it" attitude aren't collectors and those who aren't are never going to "get it" as to how damaging and harmful counterfeiting is to the hobby, legitimate businesses that cater to the hobby, etc.

For collectors, and there are many with sizeable sums invested, this is a quite serious matter.

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SWHF #448

I wonder if our old buddy David B. is either a customer or business partner of the boxclown.

No, I want to see the pics on this Forum. Comparison pics.
Yes, it is a serious situation. And we have to fight it and bring it to an end.
All groups of collectors have faced this problem. Artillery Luger collectors are legendary. Just look at 1903s and Garands. I dont even look anymore.
There are some mighty talented fellas out there. Very talented and crafty.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

The boxes are well made but are not quite exactly like the factory boxes. Aside from the "Hot off the press" perfect condition of a 80+ year old box "sounding the alarm," An avid collector with a trained eye could tell something was amiss but a novice? I'm not sure.

I don't understand why you need to see pics of the boxes on the forum? Look at the link and then look at some pics of real McCoy boxes, or one of your own boxes, not that hard


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Kris
OGCA, NRA LM

My point exactly, gives the novice a perfect opportunity to visually compare the two. So, we agree, lets help the novice guy out.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Ok then if you want to help post some pics of some legit boxes and I'll add pics from the link.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Kris
OGCA, NRA LM

Kris, great offer. Im afraid Im a novice to the world of computers, and have not mastered that skill. I do not have the tools to do it. Mike

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

There is a school of thought, where comparing the copies to the "real McCoy" and pointing out their differences on a public forum, only helps the seller of the copies make his product better. Unfortunately, the less he knows about where the differences are, the better.

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Miss My Buddy crsides!!

LOOKOUT; more coming out

Smith Wesson K 22 Masterpiece 6 inch Model 48 22MAG Box | eBay


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Kris
OGCA, NRA LM

Well I believe the same seller now has Model 27 and Model 66 boxes for sale. I would think that he is now breaking some kind of trademark/copyright laws by reusing the company logos and statements. But I'm not a lawyer. I must admit they do look well made. This is unfortunate because the market will eventually get flooded by these counterfeits.

The new fakes are so pricey that I don't think there will be enough of them sold to flood any market but they will doubtlessly be used to cheat some honest folks and cast doubt on many others.

Unfortunately, he has been selling the pricey Colt boxes for a long time and doing very well! Many of the complete packages you see at auction contain some of his stuff.

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Miss My Buddy crsides!!

All of these are from the seller







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Kris
OGCA, NRA LM

Dennis is also counterfeiting gun grips like S&W cokes and Colt Elephant Ear stocks for the Bullseye MTW. It's important to be able to identify the fakes but remember if you post the imperfections you are also educating the counterfeiters so the next generation of fakes will be better.

Rick, please post a link to the Cokes. Haven't seen those but have seen the elephant ear stocks and colt Python target stocks


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Kris
OGCA, NRA LM

Really disappointed over this whole thing.

I didn't realize taking someones product was this easy.

A lot of people with genuine complete sets will be met with skepticism in the future. Especially anyone who sells on the internet or by Auction.

Having to take detailed pictures of the box will become the norm.

A thread about counter fitting may be worthy of a sticky in the future.

Here, the market will take care of things. The fake boxes will be bought initially by novices or those trying to pull a fast one. But as novices get an understanding that they are fake, and when the more knowledgeable collectors discounts their packages due to uncertainty about what else might be fake, demand should fall off.
In the short term the confusion over authenticity will create a downward pressure on the value for packages with real boxes. However, the market will likely treat all "new boxes" as fake and not value them.
Just think about it for a second, would you buy a 60 plus year old gun with a box that looks like it was printed yesterday without questioning it, and likely the guns, authenticity? The new box will diminish not only the package but he value of the gun. The free market, and information, are both wonderful things.

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Existimo ergo sum armis

I've only seen the pictures of the Smith boxes here on the forum, and on eBay. They seem to look more authentic than the Colt boxes. I have seen some of the Colt boxes at a few gun shows, and in addition to looking unrealistically "new", they don't seem to be the correct thickness, and the printing on the labels doesn't seem to be quite correct.

But based on the photos here, and on eBay, this guy seems to be presenting a much more realistic looking product. The cardboard seems more like the correct thickness, and the exterior silver printing on the boxes looks much more realistic. And another thing: these boxes are counterfeits of much more recent products than the Colts, boxes that one could reasonably believe could still be in that good a shape. I think that he is becoming much more sophisticated in his presentation, and therefore is going to have an increasingly significant impact on the legitimate box market.

Just as with counterfeit currency, the proportion of counterfeit in circulation at any given time has a negative effect on the value of legitimate currency. That's why counterfeiters are pursued and prosecuted, because they have a negative effect on the value of our money.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

I would assume boxes roughed up a little with fake patina and oil spots will trickle out next.

Which undermine the value of boxes and guns with boxes even further as soon it will be too hard to tell the fakes from the real things, resulting, in the short term, a prolonged devaluation of boxes.

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Existimo ergo sum armis

I think this will take care of itself. There are very few collectors that will spend this kind of money on cardboard. My rule of thumb is, I want the box to have some kind of ware on it, if the gun is from the 30s,40s or 50s it's going to have some ware issues, in short I think the guy will be selling these for $10 apiece eventually.

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George Jamison

Exactly! The market is a wonderful thing.

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Existimo ergo sum armis

wear………age, usage

Anyone with an original S&W or Colt box can send it to India, Thailand, China, or wherever there is some box making capability and ask for a million exact duplicates to be made of it, and get them, probably for a dollar each. Making boxes is not a high-tech enterprise. I don't understand the arguments about letting counterfeiters in on the secrets of making a counterfeit gun box (or anything else) when there is no secret to it. And I will repeat with double emphasis what I said earlier. There is no one reading this who can do a single solitary thing to stop box counterfeiting. So what's the point of this pointless thread, other than possibly making more people more aware of the existence of counterfeit boxes?

Don, the analogy to auto restorations I tried to impress is only in instances where there is not enough of the original part to work with, thus, a new piece has to be fabricated from scratch. Jay Leno keeps a sheet metal man in employment all the time. A master craftsman of the lost art to roll out and "make" fenders and othe sheet metal parts for 1900s to 1040s automobiles from a flat piece of sheet metal.

If the work is good enough to pass scrutiny of the most discerning collectors, you're compared to a modern DaVinci (for actually making a part from nothing to match the original part) and if not, you will shortly be out of that business.

In short, if nobody bought these knock-off / replacement boxes, he's soon be out of business and problems solved.

I likely don't have as many original boxes as you, but I have quite few (some that I purchased from you). If I place a gun in the proper type and era box, should I later sell it I would always state that the box is original and period-correct to the gun but is not "the" box it came in from the factory regardless that you, I and almost all of us can tell it is not "the" box it came in. I have no regard for the replacement end labels on the two-piece blue boxes of the 1960s to 1980s. That's just nasty.

if someone wants to buy these replacement boxes, there's no harm if they are represented for what they truly are when purchased and when sold with the appropriate gun inside it. We know this vast quantity of near perfect Colt boxes cannot be new/old stock unless his father owned a box manufacturing facility ... which is not too far of a stretch. If he contracts these boxes from the orient somewhere, someone took an immense amount of time and money to get this monster up, running and breathing fire as well as it is.

If there were no market for the product or if the Colt boxes were not as perfect (as we see the M&P box is clearly not original) he'd be out of business.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Really? "The market" is apparently why he is now doing S&W boxes, having been so successful with fraudulent Colt boxes for years now. There seems to be no end to either the gullible who think they are getting the real thing, the nitwits who know it's a fake but are willing to spend hundreds for a $20 box, or the fellow fraudsters who are using his product to create "NIB" packages for sale at a substantial markup.

I don't think this will end until someone such as S&W takes legal action.

As I've mentioned, Vikrant/Blovit/ColtBoxMan/Dennis Mills has been cussed and discussed on the Colt Forum for years. He has actually responded on the forum a few times in illiterate and insulting style, claiming that the Colt forum members are ignorant and jealous know-nothing know-it-alls. Likely he is now monitoring this forum as well.

There is a current thread at the Colt Forum about his expansion into S&W boxes: Guess who is making S&W Boxes now......