But am intrigued by the verbose barrel marking on some K frames talking about 38 Long Colt... How hard are they to find?

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In view of the fact I have not put forth the effort to look this up, I may very well be wasting your time---and mine.

First, I have never seen the "38 Long Colt" marking on a S&W product---which proves absolutely nothing. If, BIG IF, you are referring to those marked "-----& U.S. Service Ctg's", I have two of those. They are (respectively) a "Smith & Wesson .38 Military & Police Second Model Target", and a "Smith & Wesson .38 Military & Police Model of 1902 First Change Target"---both of which are fairly uncommon----especially compared to the Model of 1905.

And now, having gone looking for a more common name than "Second Model" (which would be Model of 1902), I have stumbled upon reference to 38 Long Colt (applicable to the Model of 1899/M&P First Model). It appears "U.S. Service Ctg" refers to the same round. M&P First Models are somewhat more scarce than Second Models.

All things considered, I suspect (but do not know) S&W chose to mark their products "U.S. Service Ctg" rather than 38 Long Colt simply to avoid getting their knickers in a knot---or making their teeth hurt.

Bottom Line: Both 1st & 2nd M&P's are comparatively hard to find---and I'm guessing finding one marked 38 Long Colt would be pretty much akin to finding hen's teeth.

Ralph Tremaine

I believe this was stamped on .38 M & Ps from the early 1900s with a reference to "U.S. Service CTG", aka the .38 Long Colt. Not very common but not too difficult to find with careful searching.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I've never seen, nor heard of any S&W stamped ".38 Long Colt." "US Service Ctg" yes. Ed.

Are you referring to this?



I see these from time to time. I think the only one that I have with that is this weird old police gun:

Model of 1905 Fixed Sight Target *Update - SFPD Gun!*

As noted, the model of 1902, and some 1905's, have the following marking:
.38 S&W Special & US Service CTG. The 1899's have either no caliber marking,
or they have .38 S&W Special; the Army contract guns have .38 MIL .

US Service Ctg is another name for the .38 Long Colt. As far as I know, there are
no K-frames marked .38 Long Colt. The factory was looking for market share with
these early K-frames, and presumably thought that a reference to a military caliber
would be beneficial for military sales. Luckily for them, .38 Special and .38 Long Colt
are the same, as far as chambering goes.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Yes, that. The 38LC was the Service cartridge... Not looking for a safe queen, just a plain old run of the mill 38 caliber K frame to compliment my .32-20...

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Without having given this any special study, Mike is perfectly correct, but I would think it wasn't luckily, but intentionally, that the .38 Special was "up-charged" from the then-current service caliber, which, in form of the civilian Colt Army-Navy models, was also quite common in the commercial market. Allowing this widely available cartridge to be fired from the guns chambered in the new caliber, and emphasizing this on the gun's barrel inscription, was a smart move.

By the time it disappeared, the .38 Colt itself was on its way out, being replaced with the Colt Army Special in .38 Spl. for the civilian/police market and the M1909 in .45 and then the 1911 for the military.

The .38 Long Colt was indeed an official U. S. Military service revolver cartridge for quite a long time - 1889 until after WWI, at least as a secondary caliber after the .45 ACP was adopted. Rear area troops used Colt .38 LC revolvers during WWI, and the various state guards used them after the war. The .38 LC was loaded with both BP and later with smokeless powder. Frankford Arsenal stopped loading it in 1915, and military needs were met by contractors thereafter. Most ammunition was purchased by the government under contract from UMC, Winchester, Peters, U.S.C.Co., etc. The S&W K-frames used the U.S. SERVICE CTG'S barrel stamping until the 1907-08 period.

The first version was the "Cal. .38 Ball Cartridge, U. S. Navy" and it used a .376" diameter heeled lead RN bullet. The later "Cal. .38 Ball Cartridge, U. S. Army" cartridge used an inside-lubricated .353" diameter lead RN bullet. It first went into quantity production in 1893, but the "Navy" heeled bullet remained in production until 1897. The inside-lubricated bullet for the "Army" cartridge had a recessed base, sort of like a Minie ball, so it could be used in earlier Colt revolvers having larger bores.

As the .38 LC originated in the pre-smokeless era, it was a little weak due to its small case capacity. The whole idea of the .38 Special was to get more case capacity to hold more black powder. And in fact the .38 Special was actually designed as a BP cartridge. Had smokeless powder been in production a few years earlier, there would have never been a need for the longer .38 Special, as much higher velocities for the .38 LC could have been easily obtained, and it would have been a somewhat more efficient case with smokeless powder than the .38 Special.

The .38 Long Colt is shorter than the Special, but the same diameter - similar to the Special and the .357 Magnum.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I think the fact that Smith & Wesson specifically wanted that compatibility probably accounts for the .38 Special not being built up from the existing .38 S&W.

Had they done the latter, it would have saved us sooo many posts about the bulging case issue in converted BSR's .

That weird old gun does nothing but dilute your entire collection. You should probably just send it to East Texas where the majority of us Weirdos reside. 😊

Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

What years or serial number range is the "US Service Cartridge" marking found in?

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I have never seen any actual documentation on when the change order might have been issued, but I believe the practice was gone before 1910. The latest 38 HE, 1st Change I have with that stamping on the barrel is sn 100007, shipped in 1907. So the run would have been between around 1900 and 1910.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I have 12420X, First Change, shipped Sept. 1908


Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

From my limited data base for that period, I don't see anything having the "U.S. SERVICE CTG" legend which shipped after 1908. Not that it's certain, but if so, I don't have any listed.

Here are some old photos of the oldest gun in my collection (I think I paid $200 for it and all numbers match - including the light pencil number on the right grip panel).

1905 1st change in "38 S.&W. Special & U.S. Service Ctg's", shipped in January 1906:









P.S. I must have shot those photos in a cave... I sure could have used a light box back then...

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

That's a great one, Richard. Just the right amount of character.

Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

Except it needs to be sent to Ford's for re-bluing.

NOOOOOOOOO ! 😊

Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

Heresy most foul!