Hello, i have a chance to do a trade with a fellow who has this 4 inch 38 special marked revolver. No property markings on it. Serial number is 872543 with no V. Has lanyard loop. Smooth grips.

Is this a pre victory marked victory model. Used stateside or maybe sold to another country. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

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Yes, most would call this a pre-Victory. It has the basic Victory configuration, which is utility finish, lanyard loop, and smooth stocks, but was produced before the V prefix, likely late 1941. It would have been a US destination, either DSC or possibly Navy.

Thank you for the information. Were some of the navy used revolvers along with other services non marked. There is so much info on victory versus pre victory, and i know a letter is needed from smith. I couldnt find much to help with the serial number and rough date range. I will be sending for a letter once i get the revolver to see if that helps narrow it down more. Thank you again.

Some of the early Navy shipped pre-Victorys and Victorys from 1941 and the first half of 1942 were indeed completely unmarked. Then they started stamping them US NAVY later in 1942. The guns shipped to the DSC for stateside civilian and agency customers were also unmarked, and some of them actually ended up re-directed to the Navy. So it's pretty open as to where these early guns fit in.

Most likely shipped Nov/Dec 1941. That one's definitely worth a letter!

Should have it by friday or saturday and will get the form and money sent in for a letter. Be interesting to see if possible where it may have been sent. And once i have it in hand i may find a marking the owner may have missed or overlooked due to wear, never know. Cant wait.

I am not sure when the first .38 Special pre-Victories were shipped to the Navy, but I don't show any with SNs that low being sent to Navy destinations. Possibly someone else does and could provide the first pre-Victory SNs sent to the Navy. But DSCs without topstrap stampings were definitely being shipped earlier, so I would think that this one is more likely to be a DSC gun. Also, are the smooth grips SNed to the gun? I would not think the smooth grips were being used quite that early. A letter would answer those doubts.

When you get it, check for matching serial numbers especially on the inside of the right stock panel. I concur with Ken's dating, and that is quite, if not too, early for the smooth walnut stocks, so it'll be interesting to see if they match.

These early ones can be interesting. I introduced one of mine here a few months ago (910xxx) which shipped directly to the DSC in Jan. 1942, apparently without any markings, but somehow ended up with military property stampings, ordnance marks, and P proofs in post-1943 locations; it must have transferred into military use at some later point.

Double-checking Pate, his model summary gives shipments of the .38 Special M&P to the US military (after the U.S.N.C.P.C. guns) as starting in 7/41, with the transition to smooth stocks starting in 11/41, being complete by 2/42. No serial numbers are referenced.

I had one, s/n 833351 which was in caliber 38/200 and went to Australia. Went through a rebuild there in 59, and wound up back here in the states. It shipped in Oct. 41.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Just out of curiosity: Since you have the ship date, you may have lettered it; in that case I'd be curious whether at that early time these guns already went to Hartford Ordnance depot (like the later L-L guns) or directly to the destination like the South African guns. Thanks.

Finally no thanks to very slow shipping and UPS, the revolver came today. The seller said the serial number was 872543, after looking at it now in person. It is actually 972543. Got the 9 confused with an 8. All numbers match on barrel, frame, grips and cylinder. Bore is excellent. One can see the machine marks on frame. On the frame under right grip pannel is an S , there is also on that side a small capital L and where spring slides into frame a small H. Other side under left grip are two markings both the same L7 and a small 8. Swinging out the cylinder on frame under the crane arm on frame are two more L7 stampings and 7780. On the crane there are two S letters and 7780 again. From the looks of it. A nicely matched pre victory. Now will have to send for a letter and wait to see when it was shipped and maybe where too. Thought id put up a couple pics to show it in better lighting. From reading its been indicated that in the high 900,000 serial range an amount of non property marked pre victory revolvers were sent to merchant marines and coast guards for use. Will have to wait for a letter.

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Without a topstrap stamping, chances are in favor of it being a DSC revolver. As those were sent mainly to civilian law enforcement organizations, defense contractors, etc., about the only information of value in the letter will be to which one. DSC letters generally specify more precisely the purchaser, which could literally be any LE or government contractor. There are several other, and more remote, possibilities which the letter would also mention. SN 972453 would very likely have shipped in early 1942. The closest SN on my list is SN 9712xx which shipped in April 1942. Yours likely shipped within a month or so either side of that.

Looks very nice, pretty much unissued. With that serial, would have likely shipped April/May 1942 or so and in order of probability could have gone to a DSC destination, the Navy, or the Maritime Commission.

Probably not the Navy, as I list numerous Navy-marked specimens having lower SNs. The U. S. Maritime Commission is one of the more remote possibilities. I don't know the SN range for the USMC unmarked pre-Victories, but all those on my list have higher SNs. But certainly it's a possibility.

Numerically it is indeed less likely, but Pate documents batches of 500 to 1500 (presumably unmarked) originally DSC-bound guns being transferred to the Navy into fall of 1942, so at least technically, it's a possibility . But they would likely letter as initially shipped to the DSC warehouse in DC.

Pate is rather mute on the USMC. I suspect there isn't much source material relating to their handgun acquisitions. The commission existed since the 1930s, started building ships for Britain in 1940 and the Emergency Shipbuilding Program in 1941, so it's not like they would have just started needing sidearms in 1942. Might be a fruitful area for more research.

One never knows i guess. A letter can help. Sometimes firearms end up in the strangest places. Cleaning it up and numbers match on the crane and backside of extractor too. How long does it take to get a letter once its received on their end.

My last one I got last week took just under two weeks from the time I mailed the form.

Internally this revolver is very clean. Didnt have to do much but give it a once over. A couple of my lend lease ones were pretty crusty inside. Happy with the internals.

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