No question on value. Not for sale at any price. I think this is a 1903 First Change .32 Hand Ejector, and needs a trigger return spring. Any sources?

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Can't comment on the Change # without serial number, but the barrel stamping looks right for a 1st or 2nd Change. You sure don't see many Parkerized Model 1903s out there. ebay is my go to place for this model.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Mine needed a return spring till I put a can of spray cleaner through it . Didn't need one after that.

Eddie

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

Serial number is 31,000 or so.

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Yup, that's a 1st Change, probably shipped in 1905.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I think all I need is a hand, or is something just improperly assembled?

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Looks good to me. Here are a few pictures that might help you check off the required parts.

Attached Images

	P5120008.jpg (62.0 KB, 137 views)
	P5120011.jpg (60.4 KB, 127 views)
	P5120015.jpg (78.6 KB, 119 views)
	P5120017.jpg (85.5 KB, 145 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Ah. It IS missing the hand. Are they specific to Models and/or Changes or will any I frame hand work?

I found a 3rd Change hand on EBay. Will it fit this gun?

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Not unless it looks exactly like Gary's in post #7.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Can the cutout for the trigger return spring just be cut into the later hand, or are there other differences?

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I have never compared different model hands for I frames before, but my guess is that only the correct model hand will fit your gun. If you find one to try, just make sure you can return it for a refund and keep looking until you get the correct one.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Would I be correct that the trigger return spring also keeps tension on the hand?

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

That's what it looks like, yeah.

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I am going to say no, but only from a memory that has looked at too many gun parts. I believe there is a flat spring in the trigger that presses against a second pin to force the hand forward. The trigger spring only affects the rebound of the trigger.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

That's not a "New I-Frame." That thing is older than I am!


Seriously, I hope you find and fit the right parts.

Well, it's new to me...

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That trigger spring looks to be the same as the 1903 no change that I have, so the hand may be the same also. The change to the trigger return occurred around 1906.

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Tom
1560

I went through my photos and found a couple of I frames from later revolvers. The first is from a 22/32 HFT shipped in 1917. The second is from a 32 HE, 3rd Model shipped in 1919. Shape is substantially different than the early ones.

Attached Images

	22-32 HFT 253XXX.jpg (108.9 KB, 63 views)
	1903 - 279XXX.jpg (102.1 KB, 60 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary: The first gun shown, the one with target sights, is post 1925 or so, and has the second type of hammer block. It used a spring and lever in the trigger to tension the hand, The fixed sight gun has the first type hammer block that used the spring and pin in the side plate that operates the hammer block to tension the hand . Neither the hand nor the triggers are interchangeable between these two models, nor with the earlier guns without a rebound slide.

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Tom
1560

Ok, I have the correct hand, it looks like.



Slightly slow carryup, is there a trick to inserting the hand, or is the concave surface of the hand more at fault?

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No it's the top edge of the hand tooth.

You can get around that by doing this for the carry up issue:

I believe Pat Sweeney's "Gunsmithing Pistols & Revolvers", 2nd Ed.(2004), pp.219-220 is the most sensible, a perfectly good solution, AND what I would do, what I have done many times, what S&W factory trained smiths have done in similar situations, and also what members on this forum have done successfully after reading this, which is:

Peening the ratchet tooth (or teeth) to correct timing/cyl ‘carry up’ and is so simple, but you're the only one to decide if you can manage it.

The flat surfaces of the teeth facing you are where to peen. The tooth at about 3 o'clock is the next to be engaged by the hand (when cyl is closed) to advance the chamber at the right of the one at 12 o’clock into firing position. The cylinder turns counterclockwise so the hand will engage the 'bottom side' of that tooth. The flat surface facing you is where to peen, on the edge right above the bottom side of the tooth. No need to take the gun apart at all. I lay the gun on a padded surface on its right side, muzzle pointing to the left (I’m right handed) with cyl propped open with a rolled up shop cloth.

If you're worried about force to the yoke and frame, I'm afraid that you're envisioning TOO HARD of a tap. Just a very light peen with a small hammer and punch is all that's needed. The ratchet teeth are not hardened! This takes finesse, not force.

And by laying the gun on a padded surface without restraint as I described, it's allowed to move when the punch is tapped with the hammer mitigating any force to the yoke and frame.

Here's a photo of the cylinder & star:


You may not even see the metal deform and it can be enough to solve the problem. One light tap with a small light hammer and flat face punch then close the cylinder and try it. If the cylinder doesn't ‘carry up’ or even if it does C/U but still has too much 'looseness' when fully cocked, give the tooth another tap. You can do all six teeth, or just others where there's looseness with the chamber in firing position when the hammer is cocked.

Now you have another 10 years of shooting before it'll need anything more, depending of course on how much you shoot the gun. If you peen too much and the cylinder carries up too far that puts cocking the hammer in a bind or the bolt 'jumps' out of the cyl notch, not a problem, peen the surface that the hand contacts and push it back.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The ratchet, being a wear surface, not hardened or made of a wear resistant steel? Doesn't pass the "smell test." I would have to see primary documentation to believe that. There's no picture, and I don't see any sort of wear on the ratchets regardless of whether they're hardened or not. However, the wear in the outer surface of the window is very clear in person. I don't understand what you're talking about, at any rate. If the ratchet was dead soft iron wouldn't your procedure just put a dent in the top of the thing?

The punch should just cover the top of tooth. Steel does not compress, it will displace, which is what you are doing here. Imagine a small pile of clay, place something on it and tap it clay squishes out the sides. Your doing the same thing, just that steel is very hard clay and moves less.

I am not sure just how hard an extractor is, but even fairly hard tool steel can be displaced. Take a file lay it on a hard flat surface and place a punch on some teeth and give it a tap and you will flatten the teeth.

I doubt that ratchet teeth are dead soft but would not need to be very hard. Very little actual force is needed to rotate a properly fit cylinder and the end of the hand should be smooth.

Apologies for being dense, but if this works won't the ratchet teeth just mushroom, flaring out on top, rather than consistently expanding ?

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Not if done correctly. By peening the tooth you are pushing metal towards the hand impact point making the hand to tooth contact slightly sooner. This should correct cylinder rotation and align the barrel forcing cone and the chamber. If all of the teeth appear that they need to be adjusted in the same fashion, then the better resolve may be to "stretch" the hand tip that contacts the teeth.

I have never done this but I would guess that metal would need to be added to the hand by perhaps welding and then filing or stoning the added material to the correct fit.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Several of the chambers time up like a Colt now; pulling the trigger brings the cylinder into battery. This method (peening) may well work, and it's worth a try....

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It's not that the ratchet teeth on your cyl are worn, it's just that the hand was fitted to another cyl and is just a hair too short for your cyl.

S&W didn't heat treat their cylinders until 1920.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Update: FINALLY got to trying this method, and what I'm doing doesn't seem to make any sort of difference. The picture didn't work. Is anybody in East TN that can show me this in person?

Update: Got with my local machinist/gunsmith and all is well. I shot the thing today and she's on the money. Will be my EDC once I pay Nashville the $69 for a permit. But something else interesting happened today.

It seems like every time I do something with guns somehow related to my friend Doug (he passed back in October and this was his 32), I see something he would have appreciated.

Funeral, I rode a good bit of the way to White Pine behind a bulletnose 1949-50 Ford

Interment, found two boxes of Winchester 32 Long Colt at a pawnshop

There have been others, but today I dug into the ammo stash for some 32s, and in the box of 32s that I hadn't opened since I got it was one round of UMC .32 Colt New Police with a copper primer. For the uninitiated, .32CNP is nothing more than 32 Long with a flatnose bullet. My friend Doug was a cartridge collector and I probably would have given him this cartridge. I used to think that once people had gone on, there was no connection with this world. But over the last few months I have started re-evaluating that; it would seem though that God in His elegant sovereignty from time to time orchestrates events so that we can know that what the writer of Hebrews calls a "great cloud of witnesses" are still interested in our affairs and in a real sense are never really gone. After all, we ARE seated together with Christ in the heavenlies.

Sorry for going off topic. I miss my friend and need to walk around for a minute. There's got to be smoke in the room or something.