Found this interesting little gem locally, but have many questions????

Details on this piece:

S/N 628138 - Which is only present on the butt, not the barrel or cylinder....and this S/N does not fall in the pre-war K-32 S/N range found in the book

The barrel is 6" with what appears to be a patridge style front sight and the side of the barrel is stamped "32 LONG CTG" and has the standard markings on the top of the barrel as those found on the M&P

Has a HUMPBACK hammer and the trigger/hammer have very strong case colors

The stocks are in near mint condition and appear to be the correct vintage with silver medallions, but the S/N on the right grip does not match the gun

It appears to have been refinished at some point, but I seen no pitting, or other signs of metal issues on the finish.....very nice work!

Has one line address on right side of frame and a small S&W logo on the left side, just behind/below the thumb latch

See photos and let me know what you think?? I see NO "star" stamped on this gun and there are no stamps/markings on the grip frame

Could this have started out as a .38 Target M&P that was sent back for a conversion to .32 LONG???

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

More photos

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

A few more.....

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Nice looking revolver, might be worth lettering.

Well, I have a real one----#681819, shipped March 25, 1940----"a real one" in that it's in the book, and it letters----don't know if that makes me educated. I was going to swear yours was bogus because of the 32 LONG CTG stamp---knowing for sure and certain it should say 32 S&W LONG---as does one of my post war examples. Alas, my other post-war says 32 LONG CTG---as does my pre-war. Now I know why I don't bother looking at that stuff.

Yours is an earlier gun (by virtue of the serial number--and the rear sight)---mine has the so-called "two screw" rear---as it should. The "two screw" came along in 1932 (for sure)---perhaps with some examples in 1931---can't say for sure, but wouldn't be surprised. If your sight is numbered to your frame, that puts it late 20's-early 30's----latest.

The closest I can come to your serial number is 594451 (March 8, 1929) and 640816 (February 8, 1932)---both M&P Targets (.38's). Soooooooooooo---I'll say your humpback hammer is a later addition---later than your gun. I'll bet money on that one!

As long as that hammer is bogus, I'd be happy to give it a new home. Call it payment for services rendered---such as those services may be----probably not worth the hammer.

The absence of serial numbers on your barrel/cylinder troubles me on the one hand, because the gun could not have been finished in a batch along with other guns---at least not without some SPECIAL handling. That leaves but one possibility: If original, it was made in the Service Department---or elsewhere where they work on one gun at a time---Design/Engineering shop maybe---if they had one. They pretty much had to build what I'll call a prototype if for no other reason than to have something to show to the man in the corner office to get him to say "Build it!" And I'll bet he rued the day he said, "Build it.".

Bottom Line: There had to be at least one before the first one.

All this tap dancing leads us to the inevitable----and the ONLY way you're going to get any real news---good or bad. Get a letter!! Do it NOW---you'll likely have a response inside of two weeks---and then tell us what it says----unless it says it was a .38 shipped to Ajax Hardware in Bucksnort, Tennessee. Don't laugh---there really is a Bucksnort, Tennessee.

Ralph Tremaine

Belated pure speculation: Yes, it could have been sent back for conversion. I deem that highly unlikely given the absence of service marks. Possible? Certainly.

Chapter next: Given it was refinished (and I most certainly can't tell that from here), it most certainly could have been refinished after they were through messing with it---and I'm saying it was most certainly messed with (because no numbers on barrel/cylinder). And it most certainly would have been made as new before they shipped it. I can see and hear it now: "Okay, he said we could go ahead and build some of these things---what do you want to do with this one?" "Make it new, and sell it to somebody!"

Chapter Last: And given the timeline established (by serial number/sight/initial production of real ones), that hammer could very well have been on there when they finally sold it to somebody-----and shipped it-----depending upon when it was shipped. If it shipped when it "should" have been shipped (by virtue of the serial number), then the hammer came along later.

Bottom Line of pure speculation: It's easy to make up stories (both good and bad) to explain weird guns. Terry Wagner has a very nasty example of the crudest, most unlikely 3rd Model Single Shot you ever saw----with a serial number that's WAY too low----which is to say it's a "put together" piece of junk. NOBODY could possibly argue with such an appraisal. It letters as a 3rd Model Single Shot----which is to say crude, "put together" though it may be, somebody along the way said, "Make it new, and sell it."

Could it be a K22 refitted for .32 S&W Long???...The Humpback hammer and the serial#range fit....
Terry

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Terry
SWCA, SWHS, IWLA, NRA

I know nothing about pre war K-22s. Do they have firing pins pinned into the frame?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Good question, could a pre-war K-22 have been converted to center fire? Or would it have had to be a K-38 frame?

I am also posting a query to Roy Jinks on the member side of the forum, will post his response.

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

I posted a ship date request to Roy this morning and he responded with this::

Tom, .38 M&P serial number 628138 was shipped in December 1931, I cannot verify the caliber with out finding the original invoice at the museum. Roy

Roy states the revolver is recorded as a .38 M&P so we now know that it was converted from a centerfire frame, not a K-22.

But as mentioned, I posted a more detailed question on his section of the member forum, hopefully he can add more to this, stay tuned.

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Tom:

FWIW: 

I have a K-frame revolver in .32 S&W Long s/n 657379.  Per letter from Roy Jinks: "We have researched your .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 Fourth Change Target, Special Caliber Chambering, caliber .32 S&W Long, handgun in company records which indicate that your handgun, with serial number 657379, was shipped from our factory on June 23, 1936, and delivered to Longmeadow Police Department, for George Van Train, Longmeadow, MA.  This revolver was delivered to Douglas Wesson's office at Smith & Wesson to be hand delivered to Mr. Van Train."  In other words, my revolver is a "pre K-32" and it was delivered in 1936. 

Additionally, I used to make my living as a full-time gunsmith (before going back to college for an accounting degree) and I became quite good at refinishing guns (other folks' opinions).  Your gun (from the photo) appears refinished.  The way you photographed it makes me believe you noticed the very small marks (scratches, dents, whatever) in the frame just in front of the forward side-plate screw around the trigger guard; these look like something that was there prior to refinish.  Also, the finish is quite "bright" for a factory finish of the frame's era.  In addition, the "Trade Mark" (Logo) appears slightly "washed" from polishing on the left edge.  Too be sure, I would have to have the gun in my hand.  Bring it to Tulsa this coming April 1-2, or to Charlotte, NC this June.

Bottom line: I would have to agree with Ralph Tremaine and the points he makes; the gun looks like a "custom" job after it left the factory.  The only way to find out for sure is to get a letter from the Foundation (S&WHF).

I hope this helps,

MGS

Good luck Tom, you found a nice gun. When we talked last nite and you said it looked nice if re-blued, that gun looks great. Hope more experts chime in, Ralph seemed to have good ideas. Hope it letters as a tool room gun. Wanna triple your money??? There was a pre-war .32 K frame target barrel for sale at the NE Ohio bunch a year ago, could have made one like that. Like the looks of the pre-war targets, no rib on the barrel. Larry

My sundry and heroic comments/prognostications on the humpback hammer were based on my ever so slightly optimistic memory the hammer came along in 1935---maybe 1936. That would be "close, but no cigar"!!

It came along in 1938.

Ralph Tremaine

Interesting......Roy states that the S/N on the frame shipped in 1931.....and the humpback hammer came along in 1938 according to Ralph.
So we can assume the hammer was upgraded about the time the barrel/cylinder were fitted?

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Actually, that the hammer came along in 1938 is also according to Roy. All I had to do, after my nagging, doubting thoughts arose was find where he wrote it down. That took about three minutes----and BINGO!!

As to what we can assume----not much if anything at this point. After you get your letter---and after you find out what if anything is hiding in the historical foundation's files----THEN we can start assuming stuff----and maybe be happy or maybe be sad.

Bottom Line: It's a neat gun--no matter what. If it turns out to be an important neat gun, then so much the better. If you get a letter that ends by saying "This is a very important revolver.", you will be a very happy camper. I know these things---been there----done that----once. The bad news is now I want to do it again.

Ralph Tremaine

I like the gun and sorry it didn't letter! Could it have been an employee conversion? That would explain how the gun looks so good, yet 2 of the major parts are un-numbered. The possible refinish is of a factory quality, although its hard to tell in pictures, esp. if the clues of a refinish are subtle. Although, at the time, I'm sure someone could have ordered the barrel and cylinder assembly from S&W, and had a local gunsmith install them. This would not be a very difficult job for most gunsmiths.

We knew based on the first set of pictures that the frame was originally centerfire. I used to gamble some once upon a time, and my bet would have been that the gun was converted from a 38 M&P target - lets not forget that the 38 M&P target has the highest production of the pre war K frame target variations. The other possibility would be conversion from a 32-20 target frame.

Aside from the dates and serial not perfectly lining up, the other reason we know it was not converted from a K22 Outdoorsman frame is the frame mounted firing pin that K22 ODs have. Pre war K and I frame rimfire revolvers have frame mounted firing pins. M frame Ladysmith revolvers however do have hammer mounted firing pins, as do the single shot rimfires. Using the SN is tricky because the 38 M&Ps were made concurrently with K22 Outdoorsmans, in shared serial ranges. I'm sure there were blocks of single runs of one or the other, but even then, focusing on the SN is a little shaky. In these situations, I go with the odds.

Not to say that a conversion could not be done, but it would be somewhat labor intensive. The firing pin assembly pin hole would have to be filled - we can see that this was not done unless it was done by someone like Turnbull, or someone with equal skills. Additionally, due to the firing pin difference, the rear of the frame, where the hammer falls is also different. This would have to be re-contoured, with substantial changes necessary in order to convert from rimfire to centerfire in these revolvers. A conversion from centerfire to rimfire would be a lot harder.

Below is a photo of my 1931 K22 Outdoorsman. I placed a red arrow to show where the frame mounted firing pin is found. The pin you see which is slightly above the upper side plate screw holds the firing pin and spring assembly in place.



When it comes to finish originality, I am a fan of checking for the in the white ring found at the tip of the ejector rod, which is present when the blue finish is factory original. This fact is also true of the mushroom ejector rod tip aka "MERK". I haven't seen enough factory reblue guns to say if this is true when the factory does the refinish. On post war guns which have the knurled tip, the in the white ring is harder to see, but it is present. Sometimes this ring can be tarnished or dirty, so be careful when using this method.

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

Thanks Jim for the excellent analysis and photos, I really appreciate all the insight from you and the others on this.
I am still pondering getting this one lettered, but I am feeling fairly confident that the gun was not modified by S&W, or at least not in a sense that there would be records stating as such. But as others have said, you just never know until you letter it!

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

There seems to be some of these floating around. I have a made up gun (my terminology) I got from David Carroll. It started life as a K22 prewar frame. They filled the pin hole with some (but not enough) weld. Then they must have found a finished K 32 cylinder and an unfinished barrel. The barrel is still in the rough. Roy told David that the gun is numbered as a K22 Outdoorsman but the number lives on a page with no entries. Meaning I guess that at least 300 of the 19,500 we tell everyone exists is maybe wrong. Who knows how many blank pages there are in the shipping records.

It didn't matter to me. I've got what I consider a shootable prewar K32 for a fraction of what a real one would cost. I feel confident the barrel came from the shop as it is. Too difficult to make a one-off copy with roll marks. Its just unfinished as to any final grinding, polishing or finish. Oh, and there is at least one other that was sold in the same auction maybe 7 or so years ago.

I don't read what others say about HBH production. I subscribe to the Supica and Nahas school of learning. When I see something, I take note. The lowest serials I've seen HBH on in K frames is in the 660,000s serials, with most being in the 670,000s. I tend to guess that any lower were put in by someone who wanted it. Higher runs up into the 2nd model numbers. Prewar M&Ps do go up into the 680,000s.

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Dick Burg

I have a Pre-K32 with the Humpback Hammer that letters to Nov 1st !937 if this helps in the 665000 serial range...

Rick

Also to my understanding that all pre-K32's had the large S&W trademark logo stamped on the right side of the frame not a little one stamped on the left.

November, 1937 is plenty close enough to 1938 for me----no harm, no foul.

Ralph Tremaine

Very interesting and beautiful 32 albeit a bit of a mystery.

I don't believe it's been refinished. The trigger rebound slide pin on the left side of the frame is clearly still domed in the photos. Invariably, a non-factory finish will have flattened the pin.

Since it's surmised that the barrel and cyl were ordered from the factory and installed elsewhere, they would have a matching vintage factory finish and therefore match the gun's finish.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I am old enough to remember when .32 S&W barrels and cylinders could be bought from the factory, and also from sources like Numrich Arms, and I have bought a number of obsolete barrels myself over the years, both from Numrich and at gun shows, for very reasonable prices. For example, I bought a new, never installed barrel for a 2nd model .44 HE that was completely polished and blued, and stamped with a diamond and an S on the flat, and I bought in one bunch a .22/32 HFT, a .38/44 HD, and a post war .38/44 OD barrel that had not been polished or blued. but with roll marks. Apparently, Numrich bought a lot of what S&W considered obsolete parts and resold them. I don't see these parts advertised any more, nor do I see them at gun shows today. K frame .22 cylindes are not that hard to find, and can be rechambered to .32 without much problem. The point I am trying to m.ake is that this gun could have been put together at one time without much problem by any competent gunsmith or machinist. I do not think it was done by S&W due the the lack of serial numbers on the barrel and cylinder.

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Tom
1560

I took the revolver out today and put a few slugs down range.......one word describes this one....WOW!!!!!

There's just something magical about the .32 Long, it's amazing the accuracy of this round especially in one of these old S&W's.

To be honest, I like it even better than my 100% original 1948 production post war K-32!!

Not sure I will bother with a letter on this one, but if I decide to do so, I will certainly post the results on this thread.

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

A word to the wise: I bother with a letter on every gun I own. Most of the letters are plain vanilla. Some of them (more than a few) are special, some few more are super special---and then there's WOW!!!!!

My one and only WOW!!!!! letter came back on a 22/40. I bought it because it was better than the one at home. Then comes the frosting on the cake: "--------------your handgun with serial number 682435 was shipped from our factory on March 21, 1940, and delivered to Mr. Philip B. Sharpe, South Portland, ME. --------This revolver was shipped on an advertising account at no charge to Mr. Sharpe. This is a very important revolver."

This joyous tale has a sad downside: The fellow I bought it from had owned it for ten years----------and never lettered it.

THE END-----and the bitter end.

Ralph Tremaine

After listening to the experts discuss this lovely revolver, all I can say is, I'd be proud to have it in my humble accumulation of Smith &Wessons, regardless of how she came to be.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Yeah me too. At least we know it's a factory target model!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Sorry for the EXTREMELY late reply.....
Yes, I am also glad to learn it left the factory as a Target Model.....and being converted to a .32 S&W Long is just a bonus in my opinion.
It's definetly built up with pre-war parts.

Not sure how to value this one, but I can tell you that if I were to come across an un-serial numbered brand new original pre-war .32 S&W Long Target barrel and cylinder I would dig deep into my pockets to buy them!!

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Don't know what it is. Don't care. I want one just like it.

I'm happy for you.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Tom,

Have you thought about a request to the SWHF for the invoices Roy alluded to, or anything else they may have on it?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Right before I began working on my Model 16-3 homage a pre-War K-32 barrel showed up at Poppert’s. As Maxwell Smart used to say, “Missed it by that much!” If I had gotten that barrel,my recent project would have been different! I’ll just say neat gun regardless of its pedigree... and I’d be proud to own it.

Froggie

Jim,

Yes, I have thought about contacting the SWHF on this one. I need to join the SWHF either way.

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Very attractive revolver; I don't know why I didn't comment the first time this thread came around.

I see two locator pins and a slotted collet on the extractor assembly, which is not surprising on K-frames from several years preceding WWII and a few years after. But as I look at the shape of the cogs on the ratchet, they seem to be heavier and have a more rounded profile on the side opposite the face that the hand contacts. I looked at a few of my late prewar, wartime, and early postwar K-frames, and that exact shape of cog seems to appear only after WWII. While there is some roundedness to that face on earlier cogs, the tooling process seems to have been somewhat different and tended to remove more metal. I wonder if this could be an indicator of when the modifications were done. I would be interested in knowing if others see the same variation that I think I do.

As an aside, I will mention something that may be widely known but which I don't recall having seen here in print: on the .22 and .32 caliber K-frames of this era, the locator pins are located to lock into the arms of the extractor star. On .38 K-frames, there is so little steel in the web between charge holes that the locator pins must be positioned so that they lie underneath the cog ring.

One other thing I just noticed that I had not observed previously is that Victory revolvers (or at least the later ones) and early postwar commercial guns had only one locator pin. I'm not sure when the company went back to two for all production, but all my postwar Masterpieces have two. I see that the slotted collet was gone by 1953, based on a K-22 I have from that year.

1944 Victory, shipped 1945: one pin
1946 Mexican (Model of 1946 M&P Target): one pin
1947 M&P two-inch, square butt: one pin
1947 K-22 (K plus four digits): two pins
1948 K-22 (K plus low five digits): two pins
1949 K-32 (low S/N): two pins

My thinking is that this gun was assembled to order by a decent gunsmith or a capable owner/shooter shortly before or shortly after WWII -- maybe even during, if S&W was responding to parts orders. Supplies of the humpback hammer were exhausted before war's end, but a customer who was familiar with the prewar K-32 first model and wanted one could have collected parts outside the company and sacrificed a .38 M&P Target to get the gun he wanted.

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David Wilson

David,

Thank you for the excellent observations, much appreciated.

It's enjoyable to speculate on when, how and by whom these types of projects were done.

The stocks on this one are so clean I at first thought them to good to be true.

The odds of me owning a pure version of this model are slim.

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

For some of us, a custom build is actually the result of thinking, "If I could get S&W to build a gun to my specs, what would I want them to build?" I have referred to Project 616 as "the gun S&W should have built but didn't" while my K-32 Homage (see: My Faux K-32 is Here!) has been the gun I should have ordered from S&W in 1971 but didn't. I was considering building a duplicate of the OP's gun when I saw Poppert's listing of the barrel for it, but fortunately for my bank account somebody beat me to that barrel, so the project evaporated. It would appear that my doppelgänger was alive and well and active in the time around WW II!

Froggie

The stocks are extremely nice.

In the photo of the butt above, they're no longer flat as they come from the factory indicating they've been fitted to the frame and refinished. But so what, they're correct '31 vintage and befit the condition of this beautiful custom revolver.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I got a couple of likes on my posts in this thread and being a little narcissistic I was rereading the whole thing. The idea of ready availability of K-22 cylinders is a somewhat fleeting thing, nd is complicated by the change to a different extractor, which Andy Horvath had problems with on my Project 616. Second, and even more important, the current move to more-than-6-round chamberings make all of those cylinders unsuitable. Finally, and more of a consideration than an outright problem, The K-22 chambers are recessed, unlike the K-32 which is not (like the K-38.) A conversion will either require cutting an increased recess which presents some problems with the extractor (so I was told with Project 616) or you must mill a fair amount off the rear of the cylinder to make headspace correct. The former is tricky (mine is a little weak with undersized rims) and the latter is expensive in machine time.

As I have written up reports (both for my own benefit and for possible publication) I've had occasion to think about problems and pitfalls the next person will face. Obviously finding original parts would be great, but is now kind of hit-or-miss. Reboring a factory 22 first requires finding a barrel, then finding someone currently doing reboring and rifling. Finally, as described above, cylinders present their own challenge, especially since Bowen seems to have discontinued supplying his aftermarket version.

Froggie

Froggie,

So true. Although if Smith had made a 7 shot 22 Cyl, that wouldn't be a problem.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

wondering how I missed this post.

Neat thread. Sal Raimondi

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Ya gotta watch more closely, Sal!

This is one pre-War target model I would dearly love to own! As you can imagine, I followed it eagerly. I was hoping for some more pix or something when I saw the thread resume. I wonder how many of those pre-War 32 M&P Targets (and the custom copies) are still actually in circulation out there?

Froggie

Since my buddy Larry talked me out of this one I have had seller's remorse.....but I am glad a friend has it so I can keep tabs on it! LOL!!

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

The gun even shoots great. Strapped it in a ransom rest, at 50’ indoors and most of the groups were slightly bigger then a quarter. I do plan on shooting it but hasn’t happened much. Like the long action in a K frame. There were about 5 Pre-war .32 target guns made like this one, found it in a search. Sal, it was nice talking to you today. Thanks again Tom for finally letting it go, I was after him for 2 years. Larry

Froggie, when people know I'm watching with intent to buy ... the asking prices (and / or bids) seem to keep going higher and higher.

So, sometimes I watch incognito. Sal

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I know what you mean, Sal. The term "a day late and a dollar short" applies to me more often than one would think possible. I'm still sorta mad at myself for not jumping on that 32 S&W barrel for a pre-War K-frame from Poppert's. That would have made a nice addition to my mix... no earthly reason I need it, but what does need have to do with it anyway? If I behaved rationally I wouldn't collect all these guns, would I?

Froggie