Hi Y'all- new member here, first post...


I have a S&W .44Mag revolver that I inherited. There is very little in the way of identifying marks... only a 4 digit serial number on the bottom of the butt "3777"











Can anyone help? I can post more detailed pics if necessary...

DrGunner

Not a S&W serial number.
No model number stamped on the yoke...IE 29-2.
I see no S&W logo stamp. No assembly numbers.

In short...no clue.

Welcome, and sorry...

This is a .44 Magnum, or more likely a model 29 made after this model was assigned a number. It has been refinished, and unfortunately the legal serial number (a letter S or N followed by up to six digits) has been removed from the bottom of the grip frame, and possibly also from the frame just behind the ejector rod housing in photo 5. Alteration of the legal SN on any gun is a Federal offense with heavy penalties, making the gun illegal to possess.

Your best option is probably to take all the parts off and keep them, leaving the bare frame, and turning that into your local BATFE office for disposal, along with an explanation of how you didn't know how it got to its current state. Others here may have another opinion. Good luck in your decision.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Welcome to the forum.

That gun has been 'wiped clean' of most of it's markings and reblued.

The # on the butt could very well be a legally re-issued serial #. The S&W number for a 44 Mag would be 6 digits with an S prefix.

What is the # stamped on the left side of the backstrap which appears to end with an S ?

Your best chance of finding the original serial # is to find it on the back side of the extractor star with a flashlight and magnifying glass. Push it out like when extracting empty cases and look there.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I have seen several similarly-stamped non-factory butt numbers. No idea how they got there. The gun appears to have been sanitized for some reason. I sure wouldn't bet on how legal it is. It is definitely not a BATFE-authorized replacement SN. Were it for sale, I wouldn't touch it. If I owned it I would not advertise the fact nor talk about it to anyone.

I appreciate all the answers, the gun came from a relative in the far northwest of the country where folks don't care much about legality. I'll look in the other locations folks have suggested and see what I can find. I'd like to keep it as it was willed to me, but not if that means breaking the law.

DrGunner

Not caring about legality won't help you much if for one reason or another (use of the revolver in a self defense shooting for example) the revolver comes to the attention of law enforcement. Perhaps others will have recommendations about how to determine the status of this firearm, but if it were mine, I would follow murphydog's recommendations. Family heirloom not worth hassle/fines/jail time.

The barrel also appears to have been shortened

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

Yes, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't belong in my safe. I have some close friends who are local LEOs so my plan is to turn it over for destruction tomorrow. I'm sad to let it go because it belonged to a very close relative, but I have a safe full of legal guns and a family to provide for. No gun is worth breaking the law over.

I appreciate the help and input here, I moderate on another busy shooting forum and the info and help here has been quick, courteous and straightforward.


Respectfully,


DrGunner

Doc, I'd follow the previous advice and strip it of all the parts before you relinquish it. The only "illegal" part is the frame. If nothing else, you can make a few $$ selling the cylinder, etc.

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Sorry for your loss. I second the other recommendations to strip the gun and surrender the frame. I realize you aren't looking to make $$ off this, but there are legitimate guns out there that need parts to keep them functional. We lose too many gun parts to the scrap heap as it is.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

DrGunner,

I wouldn't panic yet. It could be a legitimate gun that was re-serial numbered locally from where it came from in the "north west" as you said. If you have LEO friends, have them check it out for you. I've had guns that were re-serial numbered with the local sheriffs dept.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

As Hondo- Other Jim says, there are guns out there that were renumbered by LE agencies other than the BATF. The feds might not consider that legitimate, but it was done with every intention of legitimizing the gun to its real owner after theft recovery or such.

I recently saw a picture of a "scrubbed" 911 with numbers in the same font and about the same depth of impression. I would do some checking around, like with a lawyer as intermediary, before I threw a good gun away.

gee, why won't the board let me correct 911 to 1911?

Good points, all. I could keep parts and buy another 29. The good news is that the police chief in my town is a friend, we spoke at length and I'm going to turn it in to him tomorrow and he's going to contact ATF and find out if it is possible for me to keep the gun as is or he wants to register it with BATF through his department. He's been a good friend for 19 years and I trust that he has nothing but my best interests at heart so I can trust him to keep me on track to do the right thing, he seems to think that I have a good chance of being allowed to keep it as is, but also didn't seem concerned if his department has to re-serialize the gun.

Whew! I never expected this scenario when I joined here to post this, but I sure am glad I did. I often shoot outdoors at a gravel pit where many LEOs go, so this discovery could easily have been a costly and troublesome one.

Again, I sincerely appreciate all the help and advice, here and in PM. Glad to be welcomed by a great group of folks. I'll get around to posting some of my other S&Ws like the custom mount I made to put a Burris FF3 on my LEGAL 622, lol:




DrGunner

That sounds very positive. If it all works out, I'd suggest getting the resolution in writing to keep with the firarm.

And bravo on the Burris mount!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

If someone was attempting to "clean" the revolver of identifying marks, I doubt they would stamp a random number on bottom. I used to work in auto theft (as a detective, not thief) and was called on several times to verify serial numbers and fill out affidavit on certain items with a newly stamped or re stamped serial number. For example, a home made trailer needing a serial number so it can be registered.

At the risk of adding some uncertain value to this, there may be a S/N stamped on the inner surface of the yoke. It may be visible if viewed through one of the chambers. Given the degree of effort in removing the original S/N and other markings, this may be gone as well, or if this is a parts gun, may have no relationship to the frame S/N.
Only real value of that number (if it's there) will be for your police chief in running the weapon through the NTC. If that S/N comes up in the NTC check, it may shed some light on the history of that gun, or may be completely unrelated. Good luck, and I hope you get to have that gun established with a valid S/N; the alterations aside, I have a warm spot in my heart for 4" M29s.

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50 Years of DSOTM

Please keep us updated on the process and outcome as you try to get this gun legitimized. I once came across a k32 that had the serial number punched out. Shop owner claimed it had been done by the sheriffs dept and another number had been stamped on the grip frame. Thought it strange and did not pursue the gun. Plus, this issue has come up several times and I am sure there would be interest in seeing just how it plays out. Thanks.

A friend who worked in a pawn & gun was offered a K38 with no serial number. He took it, loaned a bit of money on it, and called the police and BATF as soon as the guy left. No doubt the customer was given a lot of official attention.
My friend knew the various SN locations and found one the scrub artist had missed. That was used to get the gun back to its prior legitimate owner, probably with renewed external serial number. But that was years ago, the authorities may be more strict now.

That's good advice! Although the gun appears to be a 3 screw, therefore the serial # on the rear face of the yoke arm was deleted much earlier, in 1957.

A gun of this vintage will only have these 3 # locations:

1. Butt

2. Extractor star - backside

3. Right stock – backside


That's why in post #4 I asked the OP to look for the original serial # on the back side of the extractor star with a flashlight and magnifying glass. Pushed out like when extracting empty cases and look there.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Unfortunately, I just saw your post and had already turned the gun over to local police for investigation.

Finally some progress to report. Had some rather pressing family issues so I did not get around to turning in the gun until last week. So far, the gun has been run through the state police where they did find a history and the gun comes up clean through LEEDS, which is a good sign. The officer has also contacted BATFE and is expecting a response and determination within a week. I will have a case number and will get a copy of the report clearing it should I be allowed to keep it-

So far so good.

...makes me wonder if it wasn't a "lunch box gun"...seems like it would take a lot of buffing to completely eradicate the four line address and the S&W logo...maybe it left the factory in a lunch box as a bare unmarked frame ala Johnny Cash...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

Thanks very much for the update! We almost never hear about how these situations turn out. Hoping for the best possible outcome for you!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Good luck with your new revolver, however it turns out.

I just wanted to log in and compliment you on your pictures in your original post!

Usually when this question is posted on the forum, we get a fuzzy cell phone picture, or a general description of what someone heard from someone else

As others have offered, the parts are well worth salvaging if it comes to that. Any gunsmith can remove the barrel and everything that is NOT the frame. Here are some conservative estimates of the values:
-Target Hammer: $50
-Target Trigger: $50
-4" 44 mag barrel: $125
-cylinder: $125
-rear sight assembly:$65
-cylinder release latch: $35
-everything else: $75

this my bet. The amount of material removal on the sides of the frame, the butt, and inside the yoke would be hardly unnoticeable. Not to mention unusable in the yoke area. Doesn't appear to be highly polished either like a "buddy" over in bluing done it real quick one evening. I say lunchbox gun.

I need some clarification on "lunch box gun".

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

As in it left the factory in someone's lunch box before it was finished.

One other thing I didn't see addressed, how did the gun get to you from a relative out of state, "without having been transferred through an FFL"?

Last I heard it was still the law any handgun transferred across a state line had to be through an FFL.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

If the revolver was made prior to 1968 does it even need a serial number?

Stu

Only if it was originally serial numbered by the factory and all Smiths were.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The number on your gun caught my eye. If your relative came from the far North West, as in Montana, there may be a historical reason for that number. I am not saying it is legally applied, but there may be a reason. The number was used by the vigilantes in Montana during the late 1800's to sign all of their correspondence. Nobody truly knows what the significance of the number means. I was a Montana Highway Patrol officer and the number is included on our uniform patch as a tribute to those individuals who first tried to bring law and order to a very lawless territory.

The vigilantes were based out of Virginia City, Montana back in the 1860's and 70's. It is thought that all were Masons. If you received a letter or note as a bad or lawless individual signed with this number, that was your clue to depart the area rapidly. Hangings often occurred for those who didn't pay heed. Various theories surrounding what the number stands for includes the following: 1. 3-7-77 were said to be grave dimensions, 3 feet wide, 7 feet long and 77 inches deep. 2. Others have speculated that the numbers meant you had 3 hours, 7 minutes and 77 seconds to get out of town. 3. The most reasonable in my estimation was the theory that the vigilantes were made up a 3 lawyers, 7 businessmen and 77 miners from the area. In any event, no one really knows as the true meaning died with those who used the numbers.

I know it is a bit of a stretch, but who ever applied that particular number to your model 29 may have had knowledge of the vigilantes and had the gun stamped based on that. Just a thought and a bit of history from my area of the country.

Fascinating! My initial instinctive reaction to the first pictures of the revolver was that someone very intentionally "sanitized" the gun of all traceable markings. Probably "just in case" the law was perceived as falling short of justice. The new serial number made no sense, until now.

I vote for the dimensions as the origin of the number! Very interesting explanation!

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

It was shipped from an FFL in the state of origin to an FFL in my home state 20 years ago...

And I'm not sure where you got the bit claiming "without being transferred through an FFL."????

Interesting, and YES, the gun IS from Montana....

Kinda makes ya go hmmmmmm.

Well, my local LEO returned the gun to me today. It's been cleared by my home state police, state and local police in Montana where it originated, and it was inspected and returned by BATFE. I will be obtaining a copy of the police report by submitting a FOIA form to my LEO, which contains details of all contacts and clearance by ATF which I plan to keep with the gun.

ATF seems to think it was likely one of the first year .44 mag model 29s which was produced before the model number and letter designation was used by S&W, but may have had some parts changed later on.

Either way, I did the right thing and will be allowed to keep the family heirloom.

Now I just wish I knew the facts behind the 3777, given its origins in Montana.

Thanks for all of your advice and assistance!

DrGunner

THANKS! I'm a moderator on another shooting forum so I'm well versed in taking decent pics- with an iPhone, no less!

Another interesting thing about that number and the vigilantes. That number is on the shield and patches of the MHP as a tribute to the vigilantes.

Great news, thanks for the update! It may an early .44 Magnum if it has a screw in the forward base of the trigger guard, but if not it is from after about 1962.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

...Frederick Allen, in his book A Decent Orderly Lynching, says the number meant the person had to buy a $3 ticket on the next 7:00 a.m. stagecoach to take the 77-mile trip from Helena to Butte...

...The number set may have something to do with the date March 7, 1877; the numbers were first used in that decade and first appeared in print later in that decade of the 19th century. The first Masonic meeting in Bannack, Montana took place March 7, 1877. Many members of this lodge were also the original Vigilantes...

3-7-77 - Wikipedia

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A Country Boy Can Survive

Thank you for the update. Very instructive and mildly surprising that ATF didn't just knee jerk confiscate the gun.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

This was a very educational thread. Glad you got to keep it and glad I got to learn about it!

DrGunner,

That's great news! Thx for closing the loop with us, We seldom find out how these things turn out and it's educational to hear how LE and BATF handled this and great to hear a good ending.

Now that you have it back, if you could look for the original serial # on the back side of the extractor star with a flashlight and magnifying glass. Pushed out like when extracting empty cases and look there.

I'm curious to know if whoever removed the markings on the gun missed that one. If so, we can also get back to identifying the gun for sure and about when it was shipped from the factory.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Great news! And nice revolver! Congratulations.

Actually there is an exception to the FFL rule if the gun in question, even a handgun, was bequeathed as an inheritance.

Glad that worked out for you.

I would make a copy of the BATF-E paperwork and put the original in my gun safe, safe deposit box, whatever you have. And I would have the copy with me anytime that revolver left my property.

I spent 25 years in law enforcement in this country and while the majority of the officers I knew were good, level headed folks, there WERE exceptions. One officer was called to an area where shots were being fired and found some folks target shooting. The area had been annexed into the city and thus fell under the "no discharging a firearms" ordinance. According to the first officer's partner, the officer went ballistic and gave out a butt chewing. She didn't make an arrest though. The partner & I were riding together when another call to the same area was given to us. When we arrived, the folks that were shooting weren't aware of the change and hadn't hurt anything or anyone. I told them of another place that would be OK to shoot and sent them on their way. That's when I found out about the prior call from the partner.

Another time, an officer made a traffic stop on the interstate and called for back-up. When I arrived, the officer was freaking out because the driver had a truck full of Class 3 weapons. The driver was returning from a gun show and had all of the required paperwork. I sent him on his way.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Glad things worked out for you!

Here is another link to the 3-7-77 story:

How Freemasonry tamed the Montana territory - 3-7-77 – Freemason Information

I'll take a look and let you know... I did look once before without a magnifying glass and saw nothing... would the number be on the cylinder itself?