Made an offer on an early K-38 Combat Masterpiece sight unseen for a winter project. Still has upper sideplate screw, so SCSW says pre-1955. Looks in Fair condition: looks like it needs factory reblue at a minimum. Screwheads bunged up a little, so I'll need to take of the sideplate and check the internals. If the owner takes the offer it'll make a nice Winter project gun.

Looks like a good start. What's the SN ? Upper side plate screw was deleted in 1955

__________________
John

Looks to have "honest" wear so I would be tempted to leave it alone.

It has a set of early '50s non-relieved Target stocks, pricey by themselves. Enjoy!

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

No serial# yet; seller still considering offer. Got more pictures; no bad surprises. Hopeful!

Reblue if you want, but realize you will be throwing a good portion of the value out the window. The non-relieved Target stocks are worth $250 by themselves and the gun is worth $600+ as far as those pictures indicate.

I cannot make out much finish loss and if you are worried about the matte finish, that is the way they left the factory in the late 1940s and early 1950s.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

I see no reason why a re-blue is wanted. As others stated, the value would be less if refinished. An example close to home, a friend acquired a nice used M1 Garand with a fair amount of honest wear. He wanted to shine it up. He spent $500 re-Parkerizing, and a new after market stock along with other refinements. He paid $900 for the gun and spent another $500 on it. It was appraised at $700 after all the work had been done. Since that blunder he found out that if left alone the rifle would easily fetch $1600 since it had not been tinkered with.

I would bet is its a 1953, Target stocks are a big bonus and are from 1950-1955 era so age appropriate although my guess is it originally shipped with diamond Magnas.

Trigger shoe is easily removed, the original finish was the "Satin" blue until around 1955.

If you are interested in its evolution here is a link , once there scroll down to post 25 to start.
Some Combat Masterpiece eye candy

I'd gently polish the metal and wood with some Flitz, finish it off with some Renaissance wax and enjoy over 50 years of lovely patina.

I hear you - leave it alone! Sounds like solid advice. I'll update this thread once its in my hands and we can get very detailed pictures.

I think you just answered a question I had about a 1949 Pre-Model 14 I just picked up. The bluing is fine, but isn't shiny blue like other Smiths I have. It must be the "satin" you speak of.

Finally reached agreement with seller, sent payment, and gun inbound to my FFL.

Serial # J957X. Not near my reference; will look it up tonight.

Re the above comment:
"I'd gently polish the metal and wood with some Flitz, finish it off with some Renaissance wax and enjoy over 50 years of lovely patina"

I've never tried this. Is the Flitz applied to the metal with bronze wool or soft cloth? I've just lemon oiled older stocks with a soft toothbrush in the past: how is the Flitz applied to wood, and is it oiled afterwards?

A target J frame with K frame target stocks and barrel - is that even possible?? I am not a collector of model numbered guns, but if the serial number is actually "J" prefix it would date to 1969 or later. I doubt the number and think you need to go back to the owner for clarification and a double-check of the serial numbers from the butt-frame, barrel, and cylinder??

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

Picture of serial inside the yoke is fuzzy, could what I thought was a "J" be a "3" as "3957X"? Without having access to my reference books, would that make more sense?

I have a Target Masterpiece vintage early 50's with a 39xxx number inside the yoke area, if that helps.
EDIT, Bruce, the number in the yoke is not the serial # on the non-model # guns. You'll find the K with the serial on the bottom of the grip frame and the serial without a letter prefix on the bottom of barrel and the back of the cylinder.

Check the locations where I mentioned above. What you found are assembly numbers. They appear on the major parts of pre-model guns and once the gun was assembled at the factory, they have no meaning.

Having said that, a 39,000 serial number range is 1948, which match the stocks, so I can't quite explain what you are looking at?? Coincidence - maybe.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

Got a few more pictures, but nothing covering the areas where those numbers are located. I'll have to wait to get the gun next week to get the rest of the info. These are the new pictures, one showing worst finish damage, others details of front sight and cylinder.

The serial on your "Pre Model 15" will be stamped on the heel and begin with the letter K so the stocks need to be removed to see it.

(my guess is it will be somewhere around K130,000)

BTW the same number will be stamped on the cylinder face and barrel flat minus the "K" if original to gun and they do look original.

BE CAREFUL with Flitz on a blued gun as it will remove the bluing with anything more than a gentle pass or two with a soft cloth.

My assembly #39xxx (on my pre-14 Target Masterpiece)is about 500 lower than the OP gun. Does this have any significance as to when they were manufactured in relation to each other, timewise? I would think these numbers might be sequential, but with S&W, I take nothing for granted, especially since they are different models. FWIW, my serial # is K164xxx on what I believe to be a 1952 revolver

"Looks in Fair condition:"

As one old time collector said, if you look at the definition of NRA Fair Condition, the sight of an accurately rated gun would scare you.
This one is surely Very Good and would have been advertised in the back of American Rifleman pre-GCA68 as "VG, will clean to Excellent."

Whatever it ends up being, exactly, it's a nice old firearm that will clean up very well.

__________________
Just Say No - To Social Media

I'm wondering about putting this gun into service as a carry gun. Will servicing and a tune-up by a S&W trained armorer hurt the value at all?
I'd considering getting this gun ready to go and put it into deep storage for my 1-year old grandson when he's old enough and I'm long gone.

Bruce: Yes, have it inspected and tuned by a knowledgeable S&W smith or armorer. BUT, don't deny yourself the pleasure and experience of shooting the heck out of this neat handgun. Enjoy it, you won't hurt it or its value in doing so. Your grandson will appreciate it all the more knowing that his grandfather used this gun for all sorts of purposes. .....Just don't drive any fence staples with it.... :-) ..............

No factory re blue necessary IMHO, some modest honest wear, no signs of abuse. And I wonder would they be able to match that 60 year old formula .

YOKE STAMP LOOKS LIKE "3" TO ME

You've found a nice one there. I picked up a '57 CM this year and just love it.

__________________
Mike
S&WCA #3065

I have a couple of late 40's vintage K-38s like yours. I didn't want to take side plates off and do all the stuff that the real collectors do. I pulled the grips, sprayed the guns down with gun scrubber, leaked BreakFree onto all friction points I could reach; ejector rod, etc, cocked the hammer dripped some in there, rolled it over and did the same at the trigger and any place else I could see an opening. I let it sit for a day or two, wiped it down worked the action to get excess lube out and then waxed both of them with Renaissance Wax.
Mine didn't need re-finishing, one had been owned by a county sheriff and the other by someone who favored a quality revolver. They were worn a little and had the dull finish Smith put on them at that time. Once I realized that they never were bright and shiny like a new one from the 1950s, I pretty well got over that re-finishing jag. I would have been creating something that had not existed originally. Just my experience of course.

__________________
Guero

Officially, on May 1, 1957 S&W eliminated the Soft Fitting Operation:

So it generally corresponds with model numbers ordered June 12, 1957. It was no longer necessary to routinely stamp the serial number on the barrel, cylinder & yoke arm rear surface and show up unstamped over a transition period. So guns in process or in inventory as of 5/1/57 can still have more than 3 and up to 6 locations, and guns shipped after this time may have some of the former number locations because assembly was done over time and as inventory from the old process was used up.

The 6 serial # locations were down to only 3 left on the majority of models (but not all) from c. late 1957 to 1959 which are:

1. Butt

2. Extractor star - backside

3. Right stock – backside


Model Number Stamping:

began eventually, sometimes months after being ordered June 12, 1957, but the serial number was not yet stamped in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame side of the yoke hinge, until late 1959 or early 1960, and then it was only stamped there at first when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. Soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the yoke cut on all models, except on some smaller guns where it just didn't fit, until later. When stamped in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame assembly # from the yoke cut was moved to the left side of the grip frame.


Yoke cut stamping of the serial #:

and assembly # have more changes soon after 1957 and get more confusing. When Model Number stamping began not long after being ordered June 12, 1957, the serial number was not yet stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ on the frame side of the yoke hinge until late 1959 and early 1960. Then the serial # was only stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. Also soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the 'yoke cut' on all models, except on some smaller guns at first where it just didn't fit well. And when the serial # was stamped on the frame in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame assembly # from the 'yoke cut' was moved to the left side of the grip frame. The 3 assembly # locations, on yoke, left side of grip frame and backside of side plate remain to this day. The yoke cut serial # location on post 1959-60 guns is the reason for many pre 1957 guns to be incorrectly registered by the useless assembly (work) # on the frame in the yoke cut.

Therefore by about the end of 1959, serial # locations went up to 4:

1. Butt

2. Frame in yoke cut

3. Extractor star until ~ 1980 with the new extractor star shape.

4. Back of right stock, except most target grips because of less individual fitting, until ~ 1979 when no longer hand fitted.


Assembly (factory work) #s:

These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ on frame opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period. The assembly # in the yoke cut of the frame was relocated to the left side of grip frame after model #s were assigned and the serial # was added in the ‘yoke cut’ where the assembly #, now moved to the left side of the grip frame, used to be. You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3 locations that always match on guns that are original, and that’s the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Guero: If that is as far as you wish to go, I suggest you add one step. Well, same step twice; use compressed air into every opening into the internal of the action after using the cleaning stuff of your choice. Then use the compressed air after using the lubrication/preservative of your choice. Then wipe everything off. I would urge you to at least remove the grips while doing the cleaning and lubricating operation and using the compressed air. ........

I realize that a compressor would be best source for compressed air. I'm guessing that canned compressed air (as used on computers) could be substituted or is there some reason not to. regards, hardcase60

__________________
You want me to do what?

Gun finally arrived at my FFL and I picked it up today.

Serial # K2132XX (1954), all match, five screw, grips not numbered. Capital "T" inside the crane and on the grip frame at the bottom. Screw heads all bunged up, side plate scar on top edge where it was removed incorrectly, and definitely needs all new springs. Rear sight blade scarred a little along the top edge. Small scars from trigger shoe screws on L side of trigger. Trigger has a little side-to-side play, but minimal end shake, and locks up tight. Muzzle crown looks undamaged.

I haven't had the side plate off yet, and may not take it off myself but leave that to the gunsmith.

I'm leaning toward a master tune-up with no external work other than replace damaged screws. I think this might make a good carry gun with a VERY limited diet of the 135gr Gold Dot +p load.

Congrats on the new revolver. Based upon the earlier pictures I can't imagine it needs any new springs. That gun looks like it has barely been broken in. You can find new screws from many of the common online retailers or on eBay.

I wouldn't spend any money sending off to a gunsmith to tinker with springs. I have model 15 from the late 50's with original springs and the action is broken-in and smoother than any of my new guns. If for some reason you are getting light strikes or having other problems I'd be willing to bet a good cleaning will clear up the issues.

I'd assume you aren't going to refinish it at this point... You'd have to pay me to refinish that gun if it was mine.

Be careful with compressed air especially from cans, as it can have moisture in it. Let us know how your new S&W shoots.

I pulled the side plate and its obvious that somebody has been in here and polished many of the contact points. The big surprise was that there is no hammer block in the gun! I've started looking for a hammer block so I can shoot it before sending it off; I'll look for screws, too, while I'm at it and hope to get lucky.

I'd definitely shoot it before sending it off. It might just turn out to be a smooth shooting gun that needs no work.

I'm not expert but I believe it should fire OK without the hammer block in place. I'd avoid carrying, dropping, or leaving it laying around loaded without the hammer block but going to the range and shooting it without the hammer block shouldn't hurt anything.

It is a really really bad idea to remove that hammer block. Even with a dedicated range gun the increased chance in a Negligent Discharge makes it not worth the very slight if any affect having the hammer block installed would cause. An acquaintance of my Dad's was a self developed pistolsmith in his own mind. He did a 'trigger job' on his own S&W M 28. He coiled a holster with belt rig up with the handgun in the holster, put the rig on a shelf above his desk. The handgun slid out of the holster and hit a wooden floor on the hammer. The gun fired and put a bullet into his heart. He died right there.

People are constantly laying range guns down on benches. What is the chance your handgun couldn't get knock off, slide off or whatever and hit on the unblocked hammer?

This sort of negligent discharge occurred so often before hammer blocks that it necessitated their invention and installation in almost every S&W revolver. I will send you one free if you will PM me your address. It will be polished up to a fare-thee-well and should be as friction free as anything you could come up with elsewhere. IMHO, do not be influenced by anyone claiming that IT never happens. ....

I just noticed that you need new screws. I will also send you a set of used, but good screws. IF you take me up on my offer. ....................

And to continue: On a revolver with so much evident previous 'work', I would very suspect of all of the major springs. I will bet that at a minimum the mainspring and the trigger rebound spring have been altered. If you know how to check for "Push Off" you should do so before firing this handgun. You mentioned sending it to a respected S&W Pistol Smith. I think that would be a great idea. ........

You've got a great revolver, and it sounds like you're headed in the right direction for its future. Please take Big Cholla up on his offer to make that neat shooter safer (and a bit prettier with the new screws).

Cheers,

Bob

__________________
Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

Basic field disassembly done and parts inspected. Most look pretty good, except that the hammer SA notch looks pretty suspect; the trigger side looks OK. I will have to check push off very carefully when I reassemble it.

I've had the trigger stop screw soaking in penetrating oil for 3 days, but no joy getting it out. The screw slot is bunged up on the "remove torque" side of the slot and it's hard to get good purchase even using the correct screwdriver. What are the tricks of the trade available to a home gun crank to removing a REALLY stuck screw?

I know one correct answer - let the armorer do it! Are there other options?

Tap the burrs on the screw slot with a flat tip punch to 'upset' the burrs back where the metal should be forming a tight slot.

Make the slot tight enough so you have to tap the correct size screw driver tip into the slot to reach the bottom of the slot.

Give the screwdriver handle a few extra sharp wacks to 'break' the threads loose. Also use a hair dryer on the high setting to heat the screw before trying to turn it.

While turning the screw, put your weight on the end of the screwdriver handle to keep the blade tip from 'camming' up and out of the screw slot.

Have an attitude that you will be successful!

P.S. The best penetrant is 50/50 acetone and ATF (tranny fluid).

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo44 - great description of specific steps to take. Thank you. I've got a 3-day weekend to go slowly and get it done.

ETA: I followed your directions TO THE LETTER, and the screw backed right out! I am flabbergaster how easily it came out at the final step. Thank you for teaching me a VERY valuable shop lesson.

Got the hammer block and all new Wolff spring kit installed - gun runs like a top! Tight lockup, minimal end shake, not shaving lead on (cold!) evening test trip to the range, and shoots into small group at 15 yards (70 year-old eyes and less-than-steady hands limit my reasonable range) using CTC grips to aid in aiming. Side plate screws replaced by much better looking set. I'm happy!

Great job. You have a great revolver there.

__________________
Mike
S&WCA #3065

Had a chance to take it back to the range for a little more testing with some decent 148gr DBWC target ammo from my old Bullseye competition days and some of my 135gr Gold Dot carry ammo . That ragged hole is 50 rounds of the WC and 18 rounds of the Gold Dot with a two hand hold at 15 yards (with a few flyers, what can I say?). Best I can do with old eyes and not-so-steady hold. Used both the laser sights and irons (after getting everything mostly aligned). I'm a happy guy.

Attached Images

K38 Combat Masterpiece 16Jan17 DBWC testx1sm.jpg (218.7 KB, 74 views)

What can you say? How about "Shucks, it was nothing pard."

Wow is what I will say.

__________________
Mike
S&WCA #3065

Gun went in to replace worn cylinder stop and hand. Sam reported that hammer and trigger had been damaged by previous trigger job done at some time in the past that cut through the CCH and they had to be replaced. New hammer and trigger on order from Numrich: the good news is that all the work can be done in one visit to the shop.

Sounds like your gonna have a revolver that will last several lifetimes when you get it back!

The ruined hammer and trigger have been replaced by a bobbed hammer and trigger from my parts box, the bunged up screws have been replaced by some good conditioned used ones, added a Wolff "Duty Carry" spring kit, missing hammer block replaced by used one in good condition and installed, and the worn hand and cylinder stop have been replaced by good condition used ones. I have been shooting it with some Bill Davis PPC grips, and its a pleasure to use. It has had no work done to the finish, and the original non-relieved target grips are safely stored for future use.

I'm moving this gun to the "For Sale or Trade " forum.
I had intended to use it as light duty carry piece, and have been shooting it with light loads. It’s a pleasure to use, but I’ve decided to go another way for a carry piece. I can’t afford to just leave it in the safe, so I need to sell it. I'll post it as soon as I get the pictures organized.

ETA: I had it priced incorrectly when I first posted it, so I went back and reduced the price for the gun. The grips will be sold at the same time, but separated from the gun.

ETA2: The grips sold, but the gun wasn't generating any interest at a price I needed to get to cover my expenses. I'll finish rebuilding it and start carrying it.