How many triple locks were made with adjustable sights compared to fixed.

I don't think a set number is known, but I have heard it was about 10% of standard production, more or less, so this would be around 1500.

Based on the number seen (by others, not me) I would guess it is less than 1500. The survival rate for target models would probably be greater than for service models.

Some collectors estimate as low as 5% or around 730.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I have two of them, and it took me a LONG time to find them!

What's the best estimate for numbers on Triple Lock Targets calibers?

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

Off hand I'd say 100% 44 Spl. because I don't recall even one in any other caliber. However, nothing is ever 100% and I sure haven't seen everything, but based on my years of collecting and observing, I'd feel in the ballpark by saying 99% are 44 Spl.

So based on the range of numbers above, 730 to 1500, that would be 733 to 1485 in 44 Spl.

Maybe Lee Jarrett will come along with a more educated estimate.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I would say Hondo pretty much hit it on the head. Jim Fisher does own a couple factory chambered Triple Lock Targets in 44-40 and I believe there were a few chambered in .45 Colt. Jim may know of or own other factory target configurations chambered in other calibers, hopefully he will chime in shortly.

Chad

Thanks to all and that makes sense. This is a 6 1/2" target in 44 special in 95% condition. I am going to letter it.

Photographs please!

Hi
The Calibers for triple locks are as far as I can document. Roy stated that they were
about 25 made in 45 colt.
1. 45 colt I have two one Target and one fixed sight
2. 44/40 I have 3, 7 1/2 target, 6 1/2 King, 6 1/2 target
3. 38/40 fixed sight shipped to D.B. Wesson only one Known
4. 455 fixed sight from Canada
My best guess on the 44/40 is about 15 Made.
On the 455 there were two runs the total made. I don't know.
Jim Fisher

I have one in 44 Russian. It was shipped as a target, and then converted to a King
full rib with roper stocks.

Mike Priwer

Mike,

How about a photo of that one including a shot of the barrel caliber roll mark?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim

Like some of my other guns, this was a special order, and it has no caliber roll marking.
I do have a factory letter, and it letters as 44 Russian. I'll get a couple plctures of it.

Regards, Mike

Here are the pictures of the 44 Russian triplelock, and the factory letter.







I do have the original gold-medallion grips for the gun.

Regards, Mike Priwer

I wonder if several Triple Locks in the 6000 range, like yours, were created as Target Models and were stocked such that they were the least accessible for shipping, hence the unexpectedly late ship date for an earlier serial number. Both yours and mine shipped April of 1916 and yet were amongst the first 40% numbered.

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Wow, as if 44 Russian chambering wasn't special enough, it's also a factory target model and been King-ized, as well as in beautiful condition having spectacular stocks plus originals!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

mrcvs:

At some point in the manufacturing process, batchs of frames (for particular models) are serial numbered. After being numbered, they are placed in bins and/or barrels, to be used for later assembly into revolvers. By this step in the process, the frames experience a first-in, last out bias. If the batch of frames being numbered is large enough, then multiple bins/barrels would be necessary. There was apparently no restriction or rules about which barrel/bin to use, so it would have been possible to have frames being drawn from more than one place. This adds a randomness to the relationship between serial number, and shipping date.

I've done some studies on the relationship between serial number and shipping date, using the factory shipping records, and there is definitely a negative correlation between the serial number and the shipping date. Ie, later serial numbers are shipped before earlier numbers. For some models, I could actually see when another batch of serial numbers was being used, because of the negative correlation.

The size of these batchs is apparently not known, and was probably not consistent over time. Estimates have ranged from ~500 to maybe ~2000. In part, the size of a batch probably had something to do with the popularity of the paticular model.

For example, consider the production of N-frames from 1908 to 1940. Ignoring the two years of WW1, roughly about 60,000 guns were produced over the 30-year period. That is roughly an average of 2000 guns per year. On the other hand, over the period from 1900 to 1940, there were abougt 1,000,000 K-frames produced. This is roughly 25,000 guns per year, ten times the N-frame production. Thus, one would expect the size of the K-frame groups to be larger, and/or more frequent, for serial numbering than for N-frames.

Additionally the factory did try to anticipate demand for specific models, and would build inventory during slack periods. This also can contribute to a very confusing relationship between serial numbers and shipping dates.

Finally, it is definitely the case that there are far fewer target revolvers produced than fixed-sighted guns. Also, I would think that there were more target K-frames sold, as a percentage, than N-frames. But, from 1908 to 1916, maybe the factory was confused about this un-even popularity, and at some point produced too many target N-frames, such that it took a long time to sell them.

Whatever the reason, and there are plenty to consider, it is the case that at least a couple of the 6XXX target N-frames seem to be rather early serial numbers for 1916 shipping date. On the other hand, there were about 15000 of these first-models built between 1908 and 1915. That is 7 years, giving us a bit over 2000 per year. The mid serial number would be 7500, and ignoring all the above considerations, the mid date would be 1911 to 1912. If these guns had been built in that period of time, they were only in inventory for 3+ years. Maybe !

Regards, Mike Priwer

Just to add some more clarity (or not!) to the Triple Lock Target situation I will offer SN 7157 which is a 5” target which was shipped to Follett Bradley in Kansas on September 21, 1912. Bradley was a newly minted Second Lieutenant in the U. S. Army stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas where he, along with another new recruit named Henry H. (Hap) Arnold were being taught to fly in the Wright brother’s biplane. Lt. Bradley ordered his Triple Lock Target from the factory with a 5” barrel with the inscription “Follett Bradley U. S. Army” inscribed on the backstrap. Bradley carried this revolver as he served in both WWI and WWII and advanced to the rank of Major General and Special Envoy from President Roosevelt to Stalin in the Kremlin.

Bradley’s revolver # 7157 wears a 5” barrel with the serial number of 10403. We might conclude that the barrel is a replacement which was added at a later date. The following letter from Roy Jinks proves otherwise and reminds us, once and for all, that we should not jump to conclusions when we encounter mixed serial numbers on a piece.

(A more detailed story of Maj. Gen. Bradley and his TripleLock can be found in the Smith & Wesson Collectors Assn. Journal Vol.47, Number 2, Summer 2013 and the Texas Gun Collector Fall 2016 magazine)

Bob

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Mike:

Your King Super Target collection, takes target sighted S&Ws to a whole new level... Thanks for sharing your great collection.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Bob

Your factory letter is very very relevant to the discussion about serial number vs shipping date. Two gun are involved at probably the same manufacturing date: 7157 and 10403. These are nearly 3000 serial numbers apart, and yet are being worked on at exactly the same time.

This illustrates the point I was making about frames being serial numbered in batches. More that likely, but without any proof, 7157 was at or near the bottom of one container of frames. 10403 was probably on the top of another container, and maybe was one of the last frames serial numbered in a batch that was probably close to 3000 frames.

What is really interesting is that your gun - 7157 - is shipped in 1912, while 10403 is not shipped until 1916, four years later. This strongly suggests that they were building some triplelock targets for inventory, with wildly different serial numbers. The two guns in the 6XXX range may well have been part of this inventory building in 1912.

Thanks for posting your letter. This is one of those rare opportunities wherein we get to see the range of serial numbered frames that were available at the same point in time.

Regards, Mike

Mike,

In discussion with Roy he indicated that #7157 was probable a finished 6.5" Target. When Lt. Bradley ordered a 5" barreled gun there were no finished ones available so they took a 5" bbl. from soft fitted #10403 and fitted it to #7157 and shipped it out in 1912. Since the #10403 didn't ship until 2016 and had a 6.5" bbl. I would assume that the original barrel from #7157 was put on it but the letter doesn't give us that info.

Interesting twist on the shipping sequence of those early guns and more compelling evidence that the Factory was far more interested in getting the requested guns out and into the hands of the buyers than they were with satisfying the inquiries of future collectors!

Bob

How cool would it be to find TL Target SN 10403 with barrel #7157 on it? What a pair that would make!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Yes, those two TL Targets should be in the same collection!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Here are a few pics of a std. sight TL in the rare 44/40 cal. w/ factory letter. Didn't bother wiping the grease off the gun, but its a nice gun.

Richard

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I noticed no calibre markings on the barrel. Is this common practice if a Triple Lock is anything other than .44 Special?

In most cases, yes.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Howdy

The SN of this one is 32XX. It is marked 44 Special. Roy told me it shipped in November of 1908.