Beauty of an S&W .38/200 Victory revolver from New Zealand

rambob1 · #1 01-20-2017, 07:25 PM

Back in the early 1990’s I had an FFL and that made it easy to buy firearms via mail order. I also subscribed to the Shotgun News newspaper which advertised some fantastic condition gun deals at very reasonable prices back then. One of these deals were unissued Smith and Wesson .38/200 revolvers that were being brought in from New Zealand. The price for each revolver was an astronomical $99.95 list price and with tax title etc. it was S121.95 out the door. I went ahead and bit on the deal and I bought one for my collection. What arrived was this gorgeous Smith and Wesson Victory .38/200 revolver with a 5 inch barrel, chambered in the .38 S&W cartridge with no apparent holster wear or other defects, anywhere on the pistol. The Serial number is V450470 and on the top strap is the usual flaming bomb proof and the U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D. stamp along with a small p stamp on the butt close to the serial number. Inside of right grip panel is stamped with the full serial number. Interestingly there are no other non US stamps, proofs or marks on the gun that would have indicated that it had been shipped to, accepted and used in a foreign country. I thought that I had heard somewhere that most countries that the lend lease weapons were distributed to would apply their own proofs to them, but not in this case though.

The only gotcha on this beauty is the very small, import marking, Vega Sac. CA engraved discretely on the frame UNDER the cylinder. With the cylinder closed you can’t even see the mark at all and after I applied some blue to it, it is almost invisible since it was engraved, not stamped. Along with the revolver I am attaching the images of some paperwork and a web rig that the pistol could have been carried in New Zealand.

Bob

Absalom · #2 01-20-2017, 07:43 PM

Interesting. Actual New Zealand issued BSR's have the N Z and numbers stamping on the shoulder of the backstrap, so these guns really were never put into service. The gun looks like it, too. Nice of the Vega folks to put their stamp into the cylinder well; they mostly imported Australian BSR's and stamped all those on the frame, although not very big.

Texas Star · #3 01-20-2017, 08:33 PM

Well, they sure issued some! There's a NZ machinegunner photographed at Monte Cassino, and he had the flap of his Pattern 37 holster folded back and you can see the butt of his S&W .38.

Some guns may have been in excess of war needs and be those sold at the time in this post.

Absalom · #4 01-20-2017, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Star

Well, they sure issued some! There's a NZ machinegunner photographed at Monte Cassino, and he had the flap of his Pattern 37 holster folded back and you can see the butt of his S&W .38.
...

Attached is the Monte Cassino photo which our friend Texas Star has brought up a few times. 22nd Mot. Inf. Btn, New Zealand Division, March 1944.

Unlike the Australians, for whom we have at least one confirmed order of 8000 pre-Victory BSR's from 1941, all New Zealand-bound guns appear to have gone through the "mother country", so I have not seen even a minimum number. Charles Pate described them as "very rarely encountered" in his book, but that does not mesh with my experience over the last few years; while they are not nearly as common as the Australian ones, NZ-marked ones do pop up on sites like Gunbroker fairly regularly.

The second picture below, borrowed from an old thread here, shows the usual New Zealand marking.

rambob1 · #5 01-20-2017, 11:00 PM

It would appear that this pistol, among a group of pistols that was distributed during lend lease, never made its way to New Zealand or they would have been marked as such. After the war and after considerable years, they were imported back into the United States, never having any additional stamps being applied. I am not sure in what country they sat unissued for so long, but my best guess would be Australia, since the user manual mentioned it twice. Here is an image of the front and back pages of instruction pamphlet/manual that came with the pistol which implies they came from Australia, but I remember the Shotgun News advertisement definitely stated they were from New Zealand. So something appears in error on the pedigree of this pistol, but no matter, as it is a keeper as far as I am concerned.

Bob

merl67 · #6 01-21-2017, 01:23 AM

Wow that one is really nice here is what a well worn NZ one looks like still shoots great though. Mine is marked in very small type Vega under the barrel unless you know what to look for you would miss it.

Absalom · #7 01-21-2017, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambob1

It would appear that this pistol, among a group of pistols that was distributed during lend lease, never made its way to New Zealand or they would have been marked as such. After the war and after considerable years, they were imported back into the United States, never having any additional stamps being applied. I am not sure in what country they sat unissued for so long, but my best guess would be Australia, since the user manual mentioned it twice. Here is an image of the front and back pages of instruction pamphlet/manual that came with the pistol which implies they came from Australia, but I remember the Shotgun News advertisement definitely stated they were from New Zealand. So something appears in error on the pedigree of this pistol, but no matter, as it is a keeper as far as I am concerned.

Bob

The thing is that the NZ markings appear to be contemporaneous to the guns' WW II service; at least that appears to be the consensus. What I have observed, at least on mine and some other Australian guns, is that the Australian military property marks like the D^D appear to have been applied at the time of the Lithgow FTR in the 1950's, on top of the re-finish. (see picture)

That would indicate that Australian BSR's during WW II service did not have markings. And an unissued Australian would not have been FTR'd. This together with the Australian service pamphlet would support this, rather than the ad's New Zealand claim. As we know from merl67's post, Vega imported both, so that does not help either way.

Texas Star · #8 01-21-2017, 08:30 AM

Absalom-

Thanks for that Cassino photo!

Nice guns and a good topic....

rambob1 · #9 01-21-2017, 09:33 AM

Absalom, thanks for the clarification. That seems to explain a lot about the timeframe of the in country marking of these pistols by lend lease countries.

Bob