Recently acquired a ca.1915 vintage M&P (#251400) and noticed three features not found on my later M&P's. I was wondering when these features were changed. First is the S&W address on the right side of the barrel. Second is the fouling groove on the underside of the topstrap. Third is the plunger and detent on the crane pivot shaft. The workmanship on this example is outstanding and makes me appreciate these early M&P's even more. This example is a 4 inch and I was wondering how common these 4 inchers are in these early M&P's. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Ron

Most likely early 1916, from my list I have 2 SNs close to yours, one in mid 251,000 and one mid 254,000 range that date (letter) to March and April 1916 respectively. The fouling "cup" and yoke detent are completely normal for this time. 4" and 5" are probably the most common barrel lengths for the M&P from early days clear to post WW II. The patents are on the side of the barrel because they used the same roll for the 4" barrels as the longer ones, and it simply did not fit between the barrel "contour" and the front sight!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

Thanks Alk, When were the fouling cup and yoke detent eliminated? I notice that my 1935 HD 38/44 has the yoke detent whereas my 1920's M&P's no longer have the detent.

1. The address and patent dates anywhere on the barrel, most commonly on the top, was replaced by the 4 line address on the right side of the frame after the war. There are exceptions of course as pre war barrels were used up after the war on Transitional Models of all frame sizes.

2. The cylinder hold open device or detent was introduced on the very 1st hand ejector, the ".32 HE Model 1896, 1st Model". After the ".32 Hand Ejector Model 1903, 2nd Model" it was dropped from the ‘I’ frames but was used and continued in pre WW I K frames beginning on the 38 M&P Model of 1902, (last used on the 1905-4th change pre war models but unknown exactly when it was dropped), and used in most pre WWI, pre WW II, and some post war Transitional N frame HEs. I don't think any post war K frames have been found with this feature. An example of old world panache Smith was known for that we won't ever see again.

This is a classic old feature to keep the cyl open when loading/unloading and prevent it from slamming closed if the gun is tipped to the right slightly and scratching the recoil shield with the extractor star.

3. The black powder fouling cutout under the top strap was slowly phased out and are interspersed in pre war production because guns were not assembled in order. Someone may have a better idea when the transition began and ended. I have models from the mid 1920s already w/o the cut out.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo, Thank you for all the helpful info. I am amazed at the high level of workmanship on these early S&W's. My specimen was the property of an early 20th century deputy sheriff in California and I am presently researching the details of this man. His name is Raymond Brown and he served in Alameda County, California. The adventure begins..... Ron

The reason you will still see the fouling cup in later N Frames is there were a lot of N Frame frames were made during WW I for the 2nd Model .455 and the Model 1917. It seems there were, literally, thousands of these frames that were used to assemble Second and Third Model .44 H.E., .38-44 Heavy Duty, and commercial and military contract Model 1917s. I know this lasted until ca. 1940-41, but have also read that it even extended to some post WW II guns.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

The 5 inch model I got today dates 1916-1917 and has all the patent date info on the top of the barrel. I believe this to be one of the earlier 5 inch guns. The roll marks just barely fit between the front sight and the other end of the barrel, but they do fit. I can see why Smith went to putting them on the side of the barrel. . .that front sight takes up a good bit of space.

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Dr. B