Hi everyone,

I have just briefly looked at a S&W model 11-4 but didn't get any photos unfortunately. The thing I remember the most is it had SP on the frame near the crane ?

Now I have tried to do a search on the model 11 here but came up with nothing found under the model 11 so am hoping some of you Guys can tell me a bit about them.

Thanks for your help again.

Here's a link to a thread I started about mine about three years ago. Sadly Photobucket's directory system is currently in disarray for several users and all the links to my photos do not work.

Not to American tastes, probably, but still a nice revolver: the Model 11-4

Here's a link to search results in the forum archives that should help you out. There are some irrelevant hits here, but they are easy enough to spot.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/searchr...8&q=11-4&sa=Go

The dash-variants of the Model 11, not to mention the Pre-11 specimens, constitute an interesting small field of study within the S&W universe.

__________________
David Wilson

The Model 11 was/is a 4" Model 10 in 38 S&W that was made for countries that had WW II M&Ps in 38 S&W (what you Yanks call a BSR) and wanted some more around 1960. South Africa was one such country and the SA Police (SAP) ordered a quantity (I have not yet been able to find out what sort of quantity it was). Some that I have seen are straight Model 11 and some 11-4.

The backstrap was marked S.A.P. The SA Railway Police obtained some of these guns from the SAP and marked them SP as you have seen; Spoorweg Polisie is Afrikaans for Railway Police. My example is marked SAR on the backstrap (SA Railways), but on close examination this turns out to be SAP with an added tail to the P.

Ask me another!
Peter
South Africa

Further to my previous post

Peter

Attached Images

	Railways Police 3.JPG (195.0 KB, 103 views)
	Railways Police 2.jpg (84.2 KB, 106 views)

Thanks very much DC & Peter for your help
very much appreciated.
Pete I am an Australian....just thought I'd let you know that one :-)
I am going to look at this revolver again on Saturday & will get some pictures to share. I am looking at getting this revolver that is owned by one of my close Friends & we are meeting up on Saturday.
Must be meant to be as I am retired Transit Police (Railway Police) so fingers crossed I can do the deal.
Thanks again Guys.

Peter is one of our most informative members, and he may be spot-on here. But inasmuch as the OP lives in New South Wales, might the SP in his case mean Sydney Police?


Is there a Sydney Police force, or are the police there NSW state police?


I watch re-runs of, "Blue Heelers" and the cops there are all Victoria state police, whether in Melbourne or in smaller towns.


The NSW cops did use a lot of Model 10's, but I thought they were all in .38 Special. So, this gun may be one of those South African examples.


On, "Blue Heelers", the police guns are mainly heavy barrel M-10's. with rare views of a snub M-10, and of a snub M-19, used by detectives.


Are there other Australian police shows that may be on YouTube? I like BH very much. I'm currently viewing Season 11.


Good luck with this purchase, given the local laws. Is .38 S&W (not .38 Special) ammunition readily available in Australia? In modern South Africa?

Peter, thanks again for a post that probably only you could make here. Your expertise is always admired.


I noted that with both markings, the guns were labeled bi-lingually.




I think you really hold British nationality? Never mind: you've lived there so long that you're my favorite South African, apart from supermodel Candice Swanepoel. I love her accent. As the Dutch name suggests, her first language is Afrikaans, but she is fully bi-lingual. And English has never sounded better than when coming from her lips, ha!


Did you ever learn how many five-inch barrels were supplied to South Africa on those BSRs? I know that many sent there had four-inch barrels, uncommon on BSR shipments to other Commonwealth countries. I saw your post here with pics of the gun retained by WO Bucke (?), who served in an armored car company in WWII. And I saw the pics of the six-inch barreled one used by a SA officer attached to the RAF in North Africa and in Burma.


Both of those men took excellent care of their .38-200's, and both lived into their 90's.

Hi Mate, back when we were issued revolvers they were all S&W model 10's in 38 special & were all marked with the NSW Police badge on the side plate.

I was lucky enough to be able to do a deal & get this model 11-4 so will put some pictures up tomorrow. Yes 38 S&W is still available here as with most calibres.

Glad you are enjoying our Blue Healers

All the best.

Jason

I owned 2ea 11-4s that were nib. One was bright blue and the other was the standard blue. I have some notes on each.

__________________
38-44heavyduty.com

I believe that the Model 11-4's with "SAP" had that mark roll-stamped at the factory. I bought serial number C570307 NIB in 1997 from Jim Supica. It came with a factory letter indicating that the gun had been held in the factory collection until it was donated to the Connecticut Valley History Museum, who then auctioned off many of the guns the factory gave them through a Butterfield & Butterfield auction in 1996, to raise funds. My gun had never left the country but has the "SAP" on the backstrap. I understand that the typical model-marked guns pretty well all followed the same format, 4 inch standard barrel, blue finish, checkered walnut Magna stocks and the lanyard loop or swivel.

I don't "hold" British nationality; I am English (by birth). We (wife and I) have been here 35 years this Friday and will never go back to what was Great Britain.

.[/QUOTE]Did you ever learn how many five-inch barrels were supplied to South Africa on those BSRs? I know that many sent there had four-inch barrels, uncommon on BSR shipments to other Commonwealth countries.[/QUOTE]

South Africa ordered 13000 4" M&Ps and received 13047. The extra 47 were over production by S&W! SA's next order for 7500 4" drew the response from S&W that they were now only making 5" (as a result of the British orders), but that spares held by SA would fit. These 5" were delivered in full commercial finish and WO Bucke's was one; I have records of every case of 100. The next order for (from memory) around 3000 fell foul of the start of control by the London Munitions Assignment Board (Lend Lease and US entry to the war). So direct order by SA or any other Commonwealth country was stopped and all subsequent orders were subject to priority release by the LMAB.

SA placed more than one demand on the LMAB, but in mid 1943 cancelled an order for 9000. Perhaps this was because they had just had 50000 Sten carbines released by the LMAB?!

The highest UDF number I have a record of is 26819, so the grand total of S&Ws is around 27000.

Peter

Love Blue Heelers.

The Model 11 has an interesting history. I just won a BSR .38/200 and stumbled across the model 11 in my research.

__________________
Mike
S&WCA #3065

Well here is some pics of my new addition. I am very happy with it. can someone please let me know when it was made. The grips are even numbered to the revolver :-) How it ended up here in Australia is anyone's guess but I'm sure happy it did...

Your modified SAP stamp is clearer than the one on mine JD. I am sure that Buff is quite correct that the SAP was applied in the factory.

Interesting!
Peter

1961-62 according to the 3rd edition SCS&W. I'm guessing 1961 as the s/n range was C474149 - C622699

__________________
Mike
S&WCA #3065

Jason-


Are the police in Sydney city cops or NSW state police? I have the impression that all police in Australia are either Federal or state. ?? Canada has both local cops and the RCMP. Don't know about provincial police in modern times.


I read most of the Scobie Malone detective novels and I think he was NSW state police, but working in Sydney.


BTW I'm the only American I know who can name the Australian states. I amazed my brother when he told me about a film set in Tasmania. I know where it is and that actor Errol Flynn, once quite famous, was born in Hobart.

All police in New South Wales are State police & are members of the NSW Police Force