Need some help

Targets Guy · #1 02-15-2017, 08:47 PM

My reading of the 3rd edition SCS&W doesn't nail it down for me. It does have the checkered diamond walnut grips and the S&W monograms indicating it might be the civilian version. The hole for the lanyard is plugged. It clearly does not have the round front sight. Supposedly the Brits bought about 110,000 of these and the "black magic finishes" began around s/n 680,000. It goes on to say the serial range continues within the M&P series 1905 4th change in range of c. 700,000 - 1,000,000. (this fits with the s/n of this piece).

I'm thinking the barrel may have been cut down by Cogswell & Harris in England

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The s/n is 975939 and it is not a Victory model.

DWalt · #2 02-15-2017, 08:56 PM

No question it is a heavily modified and refinished .38/200 pre-Victory with much later grips, which probably shipped around April 1942. Has it been rechambered for .38 Special? You have a shooter and nothing more.

Jim Watson · #3 02-15-2017, 09:01 PM

Front sight and stocks replaced, flat blue finish, reamed to .38 Special.
(NP (nitro proof) .38" (caliber) 1.15' (case length) 4 tons (chamber pressure) proof mark. That 1.15' ought to be 1.15" but I have seen others like it.)

Targets Guy · #4 02-15-2017, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Front sight and stocks replaced, flat blue finish, reamed to .38 Special.
(NP (nitro proof) .38" (caliber) 1.15' (case length) 4 tons (chamber pressure) proof mark. That 1.15' ought to be 1.15" but I have seen others like it.)

Many thanks. Any idea of year? They stopped at 1,000,000 before beginning the V prefix. This one is 975939.

Targets Guy · #5 02-15-2017, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

No question it is a heavily modified and refinished .38/200 pre-Victory with much later grips, which probably shipped around April 1942. Has it been rechambered for .38 Special? You have a shooter and nothing more.

Exactly what I wanted. I was hoping for 1945 but got close it seems.

Absalom · #6 02-15-2017, 09:31 PM

It seems to be a full Cogswell & Harrison conversion.

In contrast to most ex-BSR's with converted cylinders, this caliber conversion was done not by the importer/wholesaler in the US, but in Britain, denoted by the fact that it was proofed not in Birmingham for the .38/200 (.767 case length) like most, but in London and for the .38 Special (1.15 case length).

C & H usually put their own style of grips on their conversions, but someone swapped these original S & W ones in later. The parkerized finish is also uncommon; the standard conversion looked like the attached photo I lifted off the web.

Targets Guy · #7 02-15-2017, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

It seems to be a full Cogswell & Harrison conversion.

In contrast to most ex-BSR's with converted cylinders, this caliber conversion was done not by the importer/wholesaler in the US, but in Britain, denoted by the fact that it was proofed not in Birmingham for the .38/200 (.767 case length) like most, but in London and for the .38 Special (1.15 case length).

C & H usually put their own style of grips on their conversions, but someone swapped these original S & W ones in later. The parkerized finish is also uncommon; the standard conversion looked like the attached photo I lifted off the web.

Thank you. Your photo shows a much nicer front site. I am still using the gunbroker photo so it may not be as bad as it look on their picture.

DWalt · #8 02-16-2017, 03:40 AM

As shown in the picture, the C&H grips are usually more fully checkered (those on it are S&Ws from the mid-1950s through the late 1960s), also there is normally some engraving on the frame indicating that C&H did the work. You can see that in the picture, and it may also be on yours from your picture. I don't know if that is always the case. Whatever it is, it will probably be a solid shooter and general utility gun, but it won't have any collectible value.

Targets Guy · #9 02-16-2017, 10:06 AM

Yes C&H is clearly on the left side of the revolver; fully written out. WB is on the butt along with an ordnance symbol. I'm guessing it has been refinished as well and that symbol might be on the frame butt.

I would think there would be an import stamp on it for it to come back to the states but am not an expert on that. When I get possession I'll post some additional photos.

Targets Guy · #10 02-16-2017, 10:07 AM

If the stocks have a s/n on the right inside I should be able to date them as well.

Absalom · #11 02-16-2017, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targets Guy

....
I would think there would be an import stamp on it for it to come back to the states but am not an expert on that.....

Late-arriving ex-BSR's after 1968, when the GCA started requiring importer marks, tend to be Australian and New Zealand guns. The British re-imports were largely done by then; most of the commercial proof marks date from the 1950s.

Muley Gil · #12 02-16-2017, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targets Guy

Thank you. Your photo shows a much nicer front site. I am still using the gunbroker photo so it may not be as bad as it look on their picture.

It appears that a prior owner filed down the front sight, probably for a load other than the standard 158 grain lead round nose.

Targets Guy · #13 02-25-2017, 04:50 PM

I received the revolver today and put two .38 special (130gr) rounds downrange. No bulging of the shell casing and gun shot true. Another keeper.

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Targets Guy · #14 02-25-2017, 04:51 PM

The grips are not original but the right one does have a serial number.

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Targets Guy · #15 02-25-2017, 04:52 PM

I like the revolver. Back to the range once my gunsmith checks it over.

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Targets Guy · #16 03-05-2017, 09:57 AM

Put some new shoes on it while waiting for the Victory stocks.

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Targets Guy · #17 03-05-2017, 09:58 AM

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Really like how the rosewood Altamonts work with the parkerized finish.

Targets Guy · #18 03-06-2017, 05:15 PM

Swivel showed up today and it is now in place.

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Targets Guy · #19 03-06-2017, 06:41 PM

online photo sharing

Targets Guy · #20 03-10-2017, 02:37 PM

Put some new shoes on a chrome BSR I just won.

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Targets Guy · #21 09-15-2017, 01:00 PM

I finally put some Victory stocks on the BSR.

Targets Guy · #22 09-15-2017, 01:01 PM

It likes to hunt for English walnuts. Go figure.

wheelgun610 · #23 09-15-2017, 06:33 PM

I'd take the rubber bands off those stocks if I were you. If there's any trace of oil in the wood, they might leave their mark on 'em from the rubber reacting to the oil. Saw that happen before....

Mark

Targets Guy · #24 09-15-2017, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelgun610

I'd take the rubber bands off those stocks if I were you. If there's any trace of oil in the wood, they might leave their mark on 'em from the rubber reacting to the oil. Saw that happen before....

Mark

Thanks. Already done. Sarco sent them to me that way. By the looks of the one I put on the gun they had been that way for a while.

lebomm · #25 09-15-2017, 09:58 PM

So is that a rechambered .38-200 or a replacement .38 Special cylinder ? You mentioned having no case swelling on the 2 rds you fired, but those 130 gr. FMJ are a pretty low pressure load. Try some std. service loads of a 158@800 and see how they look. Looking fwd to your range report !

Larry

Targets Guy · #26 09-15-2017, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lebomm

So is that a rechambered .38-200 or a replacement .38 Special cylinder ? You mentioned having no case swelling on the 2 rds you fired, but those 130 gr. FMJ are a pretty low pressure load. Try some std. service loads of a 158@800 and see how they look. Looking fwd to your range report !

Larry

Good suggestion. I'll give it a try. I have 27 rounds through it so far and none have burst or been difficult to get out; unlike my other BSR which was a total disaster. It is at the gunsmith now getting a .38SW barrel chromed and then it will replace the .38 special barrel on it.

On this one the cylinder s/n matches the butt frame serial number. The barrel s/n does not match.

I believe it was originally a 5 inch barrel.

The cylinder is very nice

Targets Guy · #27 09-15-2017, 11:23 PM

I checked the 158 grain ammo I have (Blazer) and compared with the 130 grain Aguila

Aguila

Muzzle energy: 261
Muzzle velocity 950 ft/sec

Blazer

Muzzle energy: 200
Muzzle velocity 755 ft/sec

It will be interesting.

lebomm · #28 09-16-2017, 03:57 AM

I believe the cylinder in the above pic is a rechambered .38 S&W (.38-200). I see what appears to be a small shoulder about 2/3 of the way up the chamber with a slight roughness up to the throat. That is the characteristic appearance of a .38 S&W chamber reamed to .38 Spl, as the Special is slightly smaller in diameter. It is also consistent with a Cogswell & Harrison conversion, as is the barrel marking pictured in your earlier post as "38 S&W CTG". The case dimensions of the British .380 MkI military revolver cartridge with its 200 gr. bullet (hence ".38-200") are identical to those of the .38 S&W.

Larry

Targets Guy · #29 09-16-2017, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lebomm

I believe the cylinder in the above pic is a rechambered .38 S&W (.38-200). I see what appears to be a small shoulder about 2/3 of the way up the chamber with a slight roughness up to the throat. That is the characteristic appearance of a .38 S&W chamber reamed to .38 Spl, as the Special is slightly smaller in diameter. It is also consistent with a Cogswell & Harrison conversion, as is the barrel marking pictured in your earlier post as "38 S&W CTG". The case dimensions of the British .380 MkI military revolver cartridge with its 200 gr. bullet (hence ".38-200") are identical to those of the .38 S&W.

Larry

I agree. So far .38 specials I have fired in that cylinder have not expanded and are removed easily after firing. Unlike this cylinder which comes from a reamed out .38SW as well. .38 specials fired in this cylinder expand and in some cases burst. I think Cogswell and Harrison did a much better job in their conversion.

Targets Guy · #30 09-17-2017, 04:21 PM

Okay, back from the range. Bottom line is Cogswell & Harrison did good work.

I fired six 158 grain Freedom Ammunition .38 specials.

I even was able to walk the rounds into the center of the head.

Targets Guy · #31 09-17-2017, 04:21 PM

Okay, back from the range. Bottom line is Cogswell & Harrison did good work.

I fired six 158 grain Freedom Ammunition .38 specials.

All six had just the slightest expansion. And they fell out of the chambers; didn't even need the extractor rod.

I even was able to walk the rounds into the center of the head.

Targets Guy · #32 09-17-2017, 04:25 PM

I also took along a younger cousin of his; a 1947 Postwar S prefix .38.

Targets Guy · #33 10-13-2017, 06:33 PM

Back to the range today with the 1942 BSR. 12 rounds downrange at 7 yards. Last six rounds were 148 grain wad cutters.

Targets Guy · #34 10-13-2017, 06:34 PM

His range buddy today was a 12-2. He'll go shooting this weekend.

Targets Guy · #35 10-13-2017, 06:35 PM

Getting to like the BSR.

Targets Guy · #36 10-13-2017, 06:37 PM

I did get four wadcutters through the 12-2.

Targets Guy · #37 05-10-2020, 09:32 AM

Did a thread review and noticed all the photos are gone. So here is a smattering of the revolver.

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Targets Guy · #38 05-10-2020, 09:35 AM

more....

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Targets Guy · #39 05-10-2020, 09:37 AM

and still more

lamarw · #40 05-10-2020, 01:02 PM

I appreciate the thread started a couple of years back and revived to show newer pictures.

Below are pictures of mine with a rather interesting history. Also included is a copy of letter from the S&W Historian on my revolver. It is an interesting read. The term .38/200 was a nickname for this model revolver.

My revolver was shipped directly to the Union of South Africa and was a relatively early shipment for WWII. At some point in time this revolver ended up in British hands where it was stamped with all the British proof marks prior to export. Also please notice the Union of South Africa Markings on the rear back strap.

This revolver has the rarer 4" barrel and has not been converted from the .38 S&W cartridge.

Targets Guy · #41 05-10-2020, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamarw

I appreciate the thread started a couple of years back and revived to show newer pictures.

Below are pictures of mine with a rather interesting history. Also included is a copy of letter from the S&W Historian on my revolver. It is an interesting read. The term .38/200 was a nickname for this model revolver.

My revolver was shipped directly to the Union of South Africa and was a relatively early shipment for WWII. At some point in time this revolver ended up in British hands where it was stamped with all the British proof marks prior to export. Also please notice the Union of South Africa Markings on the rear back strap.

This revolver has the rarer 4" barrel and has not been converted from the .38 S&W cartridge.

Thanks for sharing the letter. Very interesting.