The S&W numerical and alphabet soup:
FRAME STAMPINGS - SERIAL #s/REFINISH/REWORK/OTHER: (Note: Almost any statements about S&Ws are presumed to be trends, and should not be taken as rules.)
Serial # Locations:
Always use optical magnification including a flashlight when looking at or for serial numbers to observe the information accurately.
Pre war fixed sighted guns have serial #s in 6* locations, target** models as many as 9. Triple Locks have 7 including the mid lock cam plate, therefore 10 locations on Target models.
*Post War continued the 6 fixed sight locations thru ~1956, and 9 s/n locations on early Post War Transitional target models with pre war target sights only, thru 1957, but dropped the 3 target sight locations post war on the new Micro-click sighted models, which were no longer specifically fitted to the top strap.
**Target models will have the serial number on:
the front sight,
under rear sight, and
the rear sight blade (although the rear blade can be #'d with the assembly [factory work] # instead of serial #.) If the s/n is more than 4 digits, the front and rear sight blades can have a partial s/n. All three parts must be removed to observe the #s. Non-numbered front and rear sight blades have typically been replaced, in most observations.
We owe the Russians a vote of thanks; having been the 1st to require multi-serial # locations on their S&W #3 contract revolvers.
Target Sight numbering per Mike Priwer:
Photo by Mike Priwer
Photo by Mike Priwer
NOTE: The Factory is known to have pulled a blue gun from the vault for a special order...target sights, nickel finish, etc., and therefore may not have serial #s on added target sights, custom stocks, etc.
Here are the 6 (or 7 on Triple Locks) pre war fixed sight frame serial # locations which are also the locations remaining after WW II thru ~1956 to look for (not including the 3 stamped serial # locations for pre war and early post war Transitional models with pre war target sights):
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!
1. Gun butt* - or forestrap* on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt
2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud
3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight**
4. Extractor star - backside
5. Cylinder - rear face
6. Right stock only*** - on back (except most post war target grips because individual fitting not required.)
stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material.
7. Mid-lock cam plate – “Triple Locks” only, in any caliber (up to all 5 digits).
*NOTE: The one TRUE place you can be sure of reading the original serial number for all Hand Ejectors of any vintage with stamped numbers, (which includes any letter prefixed #s after WW II,) is the BUTT of the gun, (or front grip strap on non-round butt .22/32 Kit guns and Targets, .32 & .38 S&W Regulation Police pre Model of 1953 I frames. And the 32 Transitional Targets from 1957). The number on the butt may be drilled thru by the factory for installation of a lanyard swivel but is re-stamped on the grip frame, under the left stock. Factory installed swivels are always 1/10” forward of center.
Generally the Pre war serial # on the butt reads with barrel to the right including I frame serial numbers on the forestrap. After WW II the serial # reads with barrel to the left (except for serial numbers on the forestrap thru 1957).
Pre-War serial #s are centered on the butt, unless there was a swivel. Post War serial numbers are all offset.
** s/n on Rear face of yoke:
Photo by CptCurl
*** Stamped since 1857, stock #s, almost exclusively on right panel only, changed to penciled #s c. 1900 and back to stamped #s in 1929. Scratched, penciled or stamped on hard rubber and premium stocks; numbering discontinued ~ late 1970s. Pre war penciled S/Ns are in the top half of the stock near the backstrap and read with the stock oriented with the back edge down. Post war numbering switched to lower right half of grip; earliest observed ~1960.
Sometimes a photo like this one is needed to “see” the penciled # as shown below:
Also, finding the penciled serial number was made much easier using The Gimps threshold tool.
SMITH & WESSON DA 45 MODEL 1917 COMMERCIAL
Decreasing Serial # locations: The number of serial #s or if model # is stamped on a particular S&W Hand Ejector has more to do with where it was in the production/assembly stages when change orders were issued, therefore as we've learned to expect with S&W, there are great variances and exceptions galore.
Officially, on May 1, 1957 S&W eliminated the Soft Fitting Operation: So it generally corresponds with model numbers ordered June 12, 1957. It was no longer necessary to routinely stamp the serial number on the barrel, cylinder & yoke arm rear surface and show up unstamped over a transition period. So guns in process or in inventory as of 5/1/57 can still have more than 3 and up to 6 locations, and guns shipped after this time may have some of the former number locations because assembly was done over time and as inventory from the old process was used up.
The 6 serial # locations were down to only 3 left on the majority of models (but not all) from c. late 1957 to 1959 which are:
1. Butt
2. Extractor star - backside
3. Right stock – backside
Model Number Stamping began eventually, sometimes months after being ordered June 12, 1957, but the serial number was not yet stamped in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame side of the yoke hinge, until late 1959 or early 1960, and then it was only stamped there at first when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. Soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the yoke cut on all models, except on some smaller guns where it just didn't fit, until later. When stamped in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame assembly # from the yoke cut was moved to the left side of the grip frame.
Yoke cut stamping of the serial # and assembly # have more changes soon after 1957 and get more confusing. When Model Number stamping began not long after being ordered June 12, 1957, the serial number was not yet stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ on the frame side of the yoke hinge until late 1959 and early 1960. Then the serial # was only stamped in the frame ‘yoke cut’ when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. Also soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the 'yoke cut' on all models, except on some smaller guns at first where it just didn't fit well. And when the serial # was stamped on the frame in the ‘yoke cut’, the frame assembly # from the 'yoke cut' was moved to the left side of the grip frame. The 3 assembly # locations, on yoke, left side of grip frame and backside of side plate remain to this day. The yoke cut serial # location on post 1959-60 guns is the reason for many pre 1957 guns to be incorrectly registered by the useless assembly (work) # on the frame in the yoke cut.
Therefore by about the end of 1959, serial # locations went up to 4:
1. Butt
2. Frame in yoke cut
3. Extractor star until ~ 1980 when the new extractor star shape was introduced.
4. Back of right stock, except most target grips because of less individual fitting, until ~ 1979 when no longer hand fitted.
Assembly (factory work) #s: These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ on frame opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period. The assembly # in the yoke cut of the frame was relocated to the left side of grip frame after model #s were assigned and the serial # was added in the ‘yoke cut’ where the assembly #, now moved to the left side of the grip frame, used to be. You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3 locations that always match on guns that are original, and that’s the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.
“The reason for the triple alpha-numeric serial number system is that S&W ran out of serial numbers that they had been using up to the 1980 and need a serial number series that had enough number possibilities to keep them going for many years. The first guns in the triple alpha four numeric series was the L frame revolvers starting AAA0001 in 1980. The rest of the models were slow phased in from 1980 to approximate 1983. When it came time to assign the new series to the auto-loading handguns they were started at TAA0001. After this the company jumped around in the new series depending if there was a demand for a special number. I actually have three guns serial numbered RGJ0001 - 0003 and they are all different models. ATF objected to the company assigning special numbers and so now they are in a little better order. I hope that this answers your question.” Roy
Once laser engraved serial numbers were introduced, the last two locations continue on the bottom of the butt and in the yoke cut. But there are exceptions, like below the cylinder, left side of frame below the cyl window and may or may not be on the butt.
Stock #s: stamped since 1857, changed to penciled #s c. 1900 and back to stamped #s in 1929. PW c. 1960 #s changed from high up on grip, sometimes 2 lines, to low and parallel to butt. The stock # and hand fitting were dropped c. mid to late 1970s due to a more accurate stock making technique. Premium stocks may just have a letter stamp indicating frame size, i.e., ‘I’ for I frame, etc.
Extractor star: “…were numbered from the early Hand Ejector models through about 1980. They were numbered because the ratchet lugs had been fitted to each particular gun’s lockwork, and it would be separated from the gun at some points of finishing. This is true for blue, nickel, and stainless guns.
"I've observed a lot more since I made that statement. Oddly, I have often observed all original 4 Screw K and N frames with numbered cylinders when none of the other parts were numbered, including the extractor.
“Obviously, something had changed in the fitting and/or finishing sequence for a short time that did not require numbering the extractor.
“Apparently, that sequence was changed again, and we arrive at the long used process of serial numbers on the frame and extractor only.” Regards, Lee Jarrett
There are exceptions like anything S&W, but once the extractor star serial # stamping ceased c. 1980, only the butt and yoke cut stamping locations remain to this day.
NOTE: 'B' or 'N' stamped:
ahead of pre war serial #s on the barrel flat (or in shroud),
rear face of yoke,
on rear face of cyl by itself,
behind the extractor star,
and by itself on right side grip frame on commercial guns (only on left side grip frame on post war models*), indicates an original Blue finish or an original Nickel finish based upon the corresponding letter.
The occasional absence (more prevalent after 1930) of either the 'B' or 'N' can also indicate that it left the factory nickeled.
“I've seen nickel Triple Locks with N stamps. I've seen them without it, too. Pre-war nickel guns MAY have an N, or they may simply lack B's. Regards, Lee Jarrett”
“Ever wondered why the parts were marked for blue or nickel?
I mean, like, really- the guys in the plating department knew they were supposed to plate the parts brought to them, and the guys in the bluing department knew they were supposed to blue the parts brought to them.
The markings were for the polishers. The nickel parts received a higher polish than the blue parts.” Lee Jarrett
*The post war and the 1950s period, was one of much evolution. There was the usual transition when finish code letter stamps waned and frame letter s/n prefixes began.
Larger B for "Bright Blue": will only appear on guns that had a Satin finish normally, but could be ordered in the optional Bright Blue. It is usually only seen on the various models in the 5 Screw era. It is a larger B than the one used to simply indicate a blued part, and it is a different font- more deluxe with serifs. It is also after the serial number on a barrel or in the barrel shroud, whereas the smaller B that simply meant "Blue" is seen preceding the number.
It appears from early into the post-war era till Bright Blue became standard in the mid 1950s.
The pic below is from a Bright Blue K-22 Masterpiece from 1948. Note the size and font of the B.
At the very end of the 5 Screw era, you will see the entire model line phase into Bright Blue, including Masterpieces and the M&P's. The Mod 28 is of course an exception since it was always intended as an economy model.
__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett
L stamp front cylinder face indicates left hand extractor rod threads, K & N frames.
M stamp in yoke on 586, 686, for firing pin recall.
Misc. single digit letter or number: stamps in yoke and cylinder and/or grip frame either side are fitter stamps and inspector stamps in general. An L on front face of cylinder of post 1960 models indicates left hand threaded extractor rod.
Caliber code single digit number stamped on grip frame: N frames only. The normal side for the cal. code # is the left side.
357 Mag no number code observed
38 special will have an 8
44 special has a 4
44 Mag has a 0
45 ACP has a 5
45 colt should have a number 7 on either side of the grip frame (convertibles stamped E5 & E7)
Star by the serial #: On the bottom of the butt, forestrap, or left side of grip frame indicates a factory rework; began~ 1910, declined in the early 1960s along with date stamps.
Deviations: Roy Jinks once said that the star wasn't always used (earliest known 1926 and star was on several parts). A nickel .32 RP that was built pre-war went back post war and got a new barrel, cylinder and re-finish; It is not marked by the SN, but does have stars on the barrel, cylinder and yoke.
A New Model Number 3 target that was completely redone by the factory in June of 1956 doesn't have a star. A .32-20 re-finished in the early 1970's did get a star stamp. Also, the star was not always put on the butt by the serial number. If you didn't want the star stamp on the butt, the factory would stamp it on the grip frame under the grips, which fits with a few guns we've seen with the star on the grip frame.
Refinish/Rework Dates: after 1910 for a return to the factory are 3 or 4 digits depending on the actual date (sometimes 5 or 6) placed on left side of grip frame on the 'toe' stamped vertically or horizontally, and will not match any other stamped #s on the gun. Ex: 3.48 for March 1948, 10.2.57 for Oct 2, 1957, etc.
Sometimes letters in a rectangle or diamond, B (blue), N (nickel), or S (standard/blue) with an R (for refinish), on 'heel' of left side of grip frame. There might also be marks in diamonds like <S> (silver), <G> (gold), or a P (plated) with a circle. In the 1960s period, an S<> on grip frame and under barrel with a rework date meant refinish, standard (blue). Which stamping was used depended on the time frame and service technician working on the gun.
Refinish and date stamp usage is generally accepted to have declined in the early 1960s and was eventually eliminated altogether not too long after. Reportedly none have been observed since 1983.
Photo thx to Colby Bruce.
Photo thx to Masterpiece.
Is this the symbol for a reblued gun?
Unusual R-Bi stamping:
Photo by wetdog
“I've seen several TLs refinished in the early 70s that were roll marked and buffed without removing the studs, obviously leaving the stud ends flat.
Another thing they often did- the sides of the front sight appear to be sand blasted. That was also common on 70s refinishes. Regards, Lee Jarrett”
Diamonds: were stamped on factory replaced parts or heel of grip frame on left side for refinish followed by letters, sometimes in a rectangle or diamond, with an R (for refinish) or S (for standard blue finish) followed by B (blue), or N (nickel), on 'heel' of left side of grip frame. On barrels with extractor shrouds, these stamps will occasionally also be found on the back end of the shroud and only be seen with cylinder swung out.
A Diamond can also mean:
Parts modified by the factory on a new gun like a shortened barrel BEFORE originally being shipped can have a diamond stamp sometimes with an S inside indicating service dept. work, but w/o a rework date like guns returned to the factory!
It can mean a gun that had service work done, just like the Star was used.
"Parts on Hand"- i.e. replacement parts sold out the door.
There might also be marks in diamonds like <S> (silver), <G> (gold), or a P (plated) with a circle.
These are just rules of thumb, not at all meant to be an all inclusive list, and often lack consistency (especially size of digits) like anything from S&W.
O stamp: “It is the mark of the repair department. The Service Department at Smith & Wesson was for a period of time referred to as Outside Repair Department to separate it from the repairs that were being done in house. On new revolvers that did not pass inspection and had not been sold, these revolvers are recycled. It was important that they get returned to the right location as they get mixed in the process. That is why you find them with different markings. I hope that this helps, Roy”
In previous comments, Roy has stated that when an order came in for one gun with a special option like different barrel length, lanyard swivel on the butt, etc., if that configuration was not in inventory, the factory would not build a gun just for that order. They would always modify a gun in inventory by sending it to the Service (or Outside Repair) Dept because it was faster and easier, than disrupting the regular assembly procedure.
That’s why we see pre war guns ordered with a lanyard ring that didn’t normally come with a ring, drilled thru the serial # on the butt, and the serial # restamped on the left side of the grip frame! Post war guns all had serial numbers stamped off center, maybe for that reason.
For example: 5” barrels are scarce, therefore I suspect all of them went to the Outside service dept to have the 5” barrels installed on unsold guns in inventory with standard barrel lengths. Therefore stamped with the O or later, stamped with an S. Unless it was a large order for a police dept of say, 30 guns all with 5” barrels, then all the guns in the order were built from scratch thru the normal assembly process, and would not be stamped with O or S.
R stamp: “The "R" [under barrel of trans. Kit Gun for example] indicates an “in house” rework of the revolver [on a gun that never shipped and therefore would not have a date stamp as opposed to rework on a customer gun]. Found on guns in inventory and not sold before World War II, reconditioned, and updated often after WW II before the factory could sell it.” Roy Jinks
"The R marking can indicate that a barrel was removed in manufacturing and returned for a repair, probably a finishing repair. This is done so that the barrel is returned to the Hard Fitting Department to be reinstalled and does not go back into the production line.” Roy
“Well there is no question how this gun was shipped. Below is attached a copy of the scan of the invoice. Just to let you know that on all important collectables that have special features I always check the invoice, if they are available.” Roy
Photo thx to Colby Bruce.
Photo thx to SebagoSon
S stamp Service Dept. Refinish: An S on the grip frame usually means 'Service Dept.' and was added when the factory fixed cosmetic or mechanical problems found on completed guns. S let the bluing dept. know that it needed to be returned to Service instead of the Fitters like the other ~200 barrels that they blued with it. Parts were blued in large batches.
Other S usages: on a barrel following the serial # most likely stands for Service, as in Service Dept. An S inside the Diamond usually stands for "Service Dept".
“S stamped on the sideplate under the grip horn, not the grip frame, and the S was added to the butt number of Victory models that were upgraded to the new hammer block.” Lee
After WW II, S&W seems to have had trouble getting back to the high standards they had for the finish on commercial guns. We know that they went to the satin blue as a cost cutter and production expedient on small frames, K frames, and almost all N frames. The earliest post-war AMC's also state the 357 will have the "S&W Blue" (Satin), but they apparently changed their minds and decided to keep the "Bright Blue" on the premier 357. The Transition Magnums I have owned had a bright finish, and they soon changed the AMC's to state Bright Blue for the 357's. However, MANY Pre-27's shipped in 1950 have an S on the frame, presumably meaning they had to go to Service to come up to snuff. Lee
Dingbats: Many wonder what the little iron cross-like marks are at the beginning and end of the cartridge and/or patent date roll mark on the barrel. Dingbats were a common typographical ornamentation used as a guide and referred to as "feet" back in the day to begin and end the barrel rollmarking to help align the stamping. They were used on many pre war guns then show up again after WW II on some models. The use of dingbats was inconsistent at S&W. Although one consistency seems to be they aren’t reported to be observed on the Smith & Wesson name stamp.
The only two styles observed, doesn't mean there aren't others, is the 3 legged and occasionally four legged. Those with four legs are the most similar to the Maltese Cross but the two vertical legs are thicker than the horizontal legs. The rectangular dingbat style with one open side is actually the usual 3 legged style but just deeply stamped.
Both styles can be observed on the same barrel.
My 44 Triple Lock has 4 legged dingbats on the address/patent dates stamping and 3 legged on the cartridge stamp. The little M frame .22 has them on both ends of the cartridge roll stamp.
See photo in post #4 here:
32 LONG CTG HELP ID.
IRON CROSS dingbat shown here:
Typography - 46 Cool & Useful Dingbat Fonts | Think Design
The use of “dingbat” to mean “an ornamental item of type” appeared around 1921 and is almost certainly based on “dingbat” meaning “a nameless object.”
Numbers on Old S&W Revolvers
Linear Mode
