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Old 03-13-2017, 09:55 PM
RoninPhx RoninPhx is offline
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a continuation on the flander's website. I messaged them, and they responded.
I have a smith and wesson first model tripple lock revolver. They only made five thousand of these in the fourth quarter of 1915 with a shroud around the ejector rod. It was sent to england and has british military stampings on it. It also has a captain's name edged into the hilt of the handgrip. I have looked for a long time for him. They wrote me back today suggesting i try this british website on military records.
I found him. He was killed 8/13/16, and was a member of the highland light infantry, "dd"coy, 10th/11Bn. he is buried in a little cemetary in france with about 100 of his compatriots. I have his spot number pictures of the place etc. He could not have had the firearm very long, and british officers bought their sidearms. But it is in my hands now and i hope he is enjoying someone is thinking of him. He was from cambuslang, glasgow, and now the hard work starts to find out about his unit, and his family if i can. I think he would be happy to know that further back than germany, we were once from a place called wedale, just south of edinbourough, scotland. It is now called skow. The place where in the 8th century it is believed king arthur's court really did exist. Long ways back but the revolver is at least in the hands of someone that has ancestoral scotts blood. It's really something to hold that gun and realize it was at the Somme, one of the bloodiest battles in history, and all the way to arizona. Whats even better is i managed to get his picture today in uniform. Unfortunately the picture is cut off just above the sam browne belt so can't see the revolver.
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Old 03-13-2017, 10:13 PM
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Very cool. Now we need pictures.
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Old 03-13-2017, 11:28 PM
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You don't happen to know of a site that tracks Lend Lease (BSR) and Victory revolvers by their serial numbers and used by the Brits and commonwealth during WWII; something from the British Defense Ministry not a US data base.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:35 AM
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RoninPhx,
You're doing the "due diligence" that collecting these old revolvers is all about.
Good job Sir (from a pure Scot),
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Old 03-14-2017, 01:23 AM
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How many times have some of us said "If this old rifle or pistol could talk"?
But when someone goes through the trouble to do the research to learn about the previous owner and what war and battles that he fought in goes a long way to telling the story. Thanks for posting and sharing your information. Frank
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Old 03-14-2017, 01:33 PM
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i don't know any website where you can track serial numbers. I got lucky on this one because of the man's name. Unrelated, but related, is a k98mauser that was a russian capture. I normally won't touch a military to refurbish, except to stabilize. This mauser had blood rust on the area around the chamber and ring. The russians dip parked it, and put some type of horrible finish on the wood. I couldn't stand it, and with due apologies to the guy that leaked on it, i got rid of the russian finish on the metal and wood, and got rid of the pits. It looks about what it would look like in the late 30's which was its manufacture date. The somme is an interesting period, in 141 days over a million men wounded or dead, about 250thousand british dead. On the first day of the somme 19000 british troops were killed, it puts normandy into perspective. I often tell people collecting these things the true interest is the history behind them. a couple of projects to do are some remington u.s. army rolling blocks that came off one of the local apache tribal lands. If they could only talk.
what i have done so far on the revolver is worthwhile. His name is on several honor rolls including in glasgow, they had his date of death wrong. I wrote to them explaining that, got an email today, and were correcting the records. That was worth something.

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Old 03-14-2017, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoninPhx View Post
A conversation on the Flanders website. I messaged them, and they responded.

I have a Smith & Wesson First Model Triple-Lock revolver. They only made five thousand of these in the fourth quarter of 1915, with a shroud around the ejector rod. It was sent to England, and has British military stamping on it. It also has a captain's name, edged into the hilt of the handgrip. I have looked for a long time for him.

They wrote me back today, suggesting I try this British website on military records. I found him.

He was killed 8/13/16, and was a member of the Highland light infantry, "dd"coy, 10th/11Bn. He is buried in a little cemetery in France with about 100 of his compatriots. I have his spot number, pictures of the place, etc.
He could not have had the firearm very long, and British officers bought their sidearms. But it is in my hands now, and I hope he is enjoying that someone is thinking of him.

He was from Cambuslang, Glasgow. And now the hard work starts, to find out about his unit, and his family if I can. I think he would be happy to know that further back than Germany, we were once from a place called Wedale, just south of Edinburgh, Scotland. It is now called Skow. The place where in the 8th century, it is believed King Arthur's court really did exist. Long ways back, but the revolver is at least in the hands of someone that has ancestral Scotts blood.

It's really something, to hold that gun and realize it was at the Somme, one of the bloodiest battles in history, and all the way to Arizona. Whats even better is I managed to get his picture today in uniform. Unfortunately the picture is cut off just above the Sam Browne belt so can't see the revolver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoninPhx View Post
I don't know any website where you can track serial numbers. I got lucky on this one because of the man's name.

Unrelated, but related, is a K98 Mauser that was a Russian capture. I normally won't touch a military to refurbish, except to stabilize. This Mauser had blood rust on the area around the chamber and ring. The Russians dip parked it, and put some type of horrible finish on the wood. I couldn't stand it, and with due apologies to the guy that leaked on it, I got rid of the Russian finish on the metal and wood, and got rid of the pits. It looks about what it would look like in the late 30's, which was its manufacture date.

The Somme is an interesting period. In 141 days over a million men wounded or dead, about 250,000 British dead. On the first day of the Somme 19,000 British troops were killed. It puts Normandy into perspective.

I often tell people collecting these things, the true interest is the history behind them. A couple of projects to do are some Remington U.S. army rolling blocks, that came off one of the local Apache tribal lands. If they could only talk.

What I have done so far on the revolver is worthwhile. His name is on several honor rolls, including in Glasgow. They had his date of death wrong. I wrote to them explaining that, got an email today, and were correcting the records. That was worth something.
I feel like this is a conversation I started listening to in the middle. You mention "he", "his" and "him", but did you ever mention his name?
I'm a bit of a history junkie, and I read your posts three times looking for an ID. Is his name there, or am I just having an extended senior moment? Are there pictures someplace in the post that are not showing up for me?

I modified your quote a bit, to help me read it, searching for the soldiers name.

Last edited by bigwheelzip; 03-14-2017 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:32 PM
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RoninPhx, ...has military stampings... ? Please describe these stampings, or post photos. Depending on whether a T-Lock was issued from stores, or a private purchase by an officer, the regulations required specific stampings on the gun, both when purchased and/or issued and then again later when the gun was decommissioned or sold surplus, etc. A lot can be deciphered from the stamping that tells more about when, where and why the gun was used. If your T-lock was a private purchase by the officer, it should letter as shipped to a S&W distributor in England. If it was issued and was part of the purchase by Remington Arms for the Brits, it should have the correct issue marks/stamps. The reason we collectors even have the chance to acquire these guns was the result of British laws requiring the turn in and destruction of privately owned handguns, but allowed a grace period for shipping the guns out of England, so many were sold to US dealers, by families of the deceased soldiers who had retained the guns after WW1. Ed.
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:02 PM
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The suggestion of getting a S&W factory letter is a good one. It will not tell you everything you want to know, but it is a great starting point. It costs $75 which isn't all that much these days, and who knows, it may increase your revolver's value as well as providing some key information, if you're lucky.
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwheelzip View Post
I feel like this is a conversation I started listening to in the middle. You mention "he", "his" and "him", but did you ever mention his name?
I'm a bit of a history junkie, and I read your posts three times looking for an ID. Is his name there, or am I just having an extended senior moment? Are there pictures someplace in the post that are not showing up for me?

I modified your quote a bit, to help me read it, searching for the soldiers name.
1st post, fifth line - he snuck it in there
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:59 PM
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1st post, fifth line - he snuck it in there
Do you mean "dd" coy? Coy is the abbreviation for company.
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:11 PM
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Do you mean "dd" coy? Coy is the abbreviation for company.
Silly me. I thought it was the man's name.
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
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RoninPhx, ...has military stampings... ? Please describe these stampings, or post photos. Depending on whether a T-Lock was issued from stores, or a private purchase by an officer, the regulations required specific stampings on the gun, both when purchased and/or issued and then again later when the gun was decommissioned or sold surplus, etc. A lot can be deciphered from the stamping that tells more about when, where and why the gun was used. If your T-lock was a private purchase by the officer, it should letter as shipped to a S&W distributor in England. If it was issued and was part of the purchase by Remington Arms for the Brits, it should have the correct issue marks/stamps. The reason we collectors even have the chance to acquire these guns was the result of British laws requiring the turn in and destruction of privately owned handguns, but allowed a grace period for shipping the guns out of England, so many were sold to US dealers, by families of the deceased soldiers who had retained the guns after WW1. Ed.
on left side of barrel is stamped not english made, then three circles with lines above like a crown. first circle is BV inside, second is bp, third is np.
on left side of frame at top of handgrip near the back side is a small arrow
below that another small crown, below crown is Z6over E.
it also has not english made right in front of the forcing cone on left side of frame behind barrel nd another crown circle which looks like BV. the cylinders have the crowned circle to the rear of the flutes marked np or what looks likedv.

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Old 03-15-2017, 12:27 AM
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The markings you describe, are proof marks required on all civilian arms entering Britain, and would be seen on a direct purchase by the Captain from an English Sporting Goods dealer, not on a T-Lock ordered by the military, as a military gun would have the military acceptance stamps and crown stamps indicating ownership by the Gov't., etc. and would also have military unit markings, if the unit armorer did his job. Most WW1 officers bought their own sidearms , swords & swagger sticks, as private purchases. Pip Pip, Old Boy ! Ed.
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:18 AM
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"not english made"

Look at that stamping with a magnifying glass. Most of them are stamped "NOT ENGLISH MAKE", not "MADE".
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
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"not english made"

Look at that stamping with a magnifying glass. Most of them are stamped "NOT ENGLISH MAKE", not "MADE".
you are right, it is make, not made, on the gun.
I am glad for the clarification on private purchase.
I have a tanker, the markings are different on it.
by serial number it is about half way through the 5000 range. One interesting thing i can't explain.
it has the four digit number on the inside of the crane, but on the butt is the number 568, which is different than that marked on crane.

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Old 03-15-2017, 11:36 AM
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for those interested in these things, there is a facebook page on flanders.
they have a six part series on there, on digs on the battlefield showing recovery of a man from new zealand, 100years later. Lot of pictures and information. Flanders Fields 14-18 | Facebook

one other thing i should add, i have attempted contact with a man in scotland that might be related to the original owner, he is out of town until next week, but assuming he answers that could be another page in the book.

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Old 03-15-2017, 08:19 PM
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Ron,
You may also like the youtube channel called The Great War- the gentleman who appears in it does a news report about what happened 100 years ago this week, whatever week it happens to be, in about 10 mins. Also usually 2 or 3 specials each week about someone or something related to The Great War.
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:19 PM
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"One interesting thing i can't explain.
it has the four digit number on the inside of the crane, but on the butt is the number 568, which is different than that marked on crane."

That number, on the yoke (crane is a Colt term), is an assembly number used during the manufacturing process.
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Old 03-16-2017, 12:12 AM
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a little more, watching utube video of the somme, i ran across a 1916 british film on the battle, propaganda even then. Probably the worst day in the history of the british army, and none of the reality of it in the film footage. I kept looking at the soldiers trying to identify the owner, he was there, but of course no luck, but did see in the footage where he was killed and is buried today. Then to realize this revolver was there in that place and time. It really is something. if that number on the yoke is an assembly number then this is a real low numbered revolver in the series.
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:22 AM
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"if that number on the yoke is an assembly number then this is a real low numbered revolver in the series."

Assembly numbers were used to keep the major parts together during the building process. Once the revolver has been completed, those numbers are meaningless.

Given that these were built for a military order, they probably went out the door somewhat in order of when they were built. Otherwise, S&W would build their firearms and then store them. They didn't ship them in order by their serial numbers. I have a commercial 1917 that shipped about 6 years after ones in the same serial number range shipped. Mine must have been stuck waaay in the back of the safe.
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Old 03-17-2017, 02:03 PM
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when you start researching this stuff you never do know where it will take you. The original owner of this revolver on the day of his death was "in front line in front of Martinpuich." I did find in the same records two men with the same last name as his killed within days of each other, they are commemorated on a memorial at thiepval, france. 72000 names there for the ones not recovered. I was watching you tube video of "dig" recovery operations on these trenches just last night in the exact same area where he was killed. On the video they were mentioning names i found in the research. I took the liberty today of bidding on a website for hat buttons from his group. I think they need to be with the revolver.
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:55 PM
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another question. assume you have a low serial number triple lock, is there any way of telling if it had been converted from a commercial 44special. One think that stands out on this one is i see no caliber indication on the barrel.
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Old 03-17-2017, 10:57 PM
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Go to post # 3 in this thread:

Triple Lock in 455
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:39 PM
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Genealogy eventually evolves into forensic history. I am proud of you for "following the trail". I tend to go off the rails and do months or years of research on folks I'm not related to.

In the same vein as your battle, I have a WWI German soldier's helmet with his name written in the sweatband. I often wonder if I should start that journey.
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Old 03-18-2017, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoninPhx View Post
on left side of barrel is stamped not english made, then three circles with lines above like a crown. first circle is BV inside, second is bp, third is np.
on left side of frame at top of handgrip near the back side is a small arrow
below that another small crown, below crown is Z6over E.
it also has not english made right in front of the forcing cone on left side of frame behind barrel nd another crown circle which looks like BV. the cylinders have the crowned circle to the rear of the flutes marked np or what looks likedv.
The revolver has a broad arrow and Enfield inspection mark, so it is a military purchase revolver, not a private purchase revolver bought from a gun dealer.
The NOT ENGLISH MAKE marking was used from 1925 to 1955 and may have been applied when the revolver was sold out of service.

Regards

Alan David
Sydney
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