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Old 03-14-2017, 05:04 PM
spitdog spitdog is offline
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Default K22 grip ? New pics added in better light.

I have a K22 serial number 6875xx. When I took the grips off and looked for the serial number stamped on the inside there wasn't one. Instead some other numbers. Isn't the sn supposed to be stamped if there original grips? I hope these pic show what I'm talking about. Thanks
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:30 PM
gmborkovic gmborkovic is offline
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Yup, but with a gun of that age grips got changed. If the gun is a shooter, just enjoy. Im sure it is a nice 22. Best,
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:31 PM
MrG5122 MrG5122 is offline
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Older grips than the gun. I read 381604. That should the serial number of the gun they came from. They didn't stamp the "K" on the grips.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:56 PM
spitdog spitdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG5122 View Post
Older grips than the gun. I read 381604. That should the serial number of the gun they came from. They didn't stamp the "K" on the grips.
Ok, Thanks. I had a feeling they were not the original grips. I think this gun was before they used the K anyway.

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Old 03-14-2017, 06:04 PM
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Here is the rest of the pistol. My picture taking is terrible, it looks better than the pics. That streak at the end of the barrel is a lighting problem not a streak in the barrel.
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:50 PM
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Hello Spitdog.

You got yourself a winner there. It is a second model K22, only 1067 were made. Its value is roughly twice that of the 1st and 3rd models. Congrats.

Charlie
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:22 PM
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That gun is a whole lot more than a shooter. As noted, it is a very scarce gun that was only made from 1940 to 1942. I think yours will date to 1940. The K22-40, or 2nd Model was made with both standard round top medallion square butt walnut stocks or a very early Magna stocks similar to what you have now, except they would have sharp shoulders at the top edge like the early K22 Masterpiece revolvers. Unfortunately, with the wrong numbers. That is a 4 digit value gun even with the mismatched stocks. A hands on appraisal might send it over $2K if high percentage condition is found.
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:30 PM
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Are there other numbers stamped into the right grip"

Under magnification I see numbers in a line across the grip between the 381 and the 604
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:38 PM
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Those stocks are NOT older than the gun. They are, in fact, quite a bit newer. The checkering pattern is postwar and the shoulder indicates they are no earlier than about 1953. The prewar Magna stocks had a greater degree of coverage by the checkering and they had a sharp shoulder. Here are some pictures of the prewar style Magna stocks:

Exterior, showing the checkering and the sharp shoulder.


Inside, showing the machined steel retaining washer.
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:40 PM
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Here is a photo of the non-Magna style stocks that were also an option on the K-22 Second Model, as mentioned above by Gary.

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Old 03-14-2017, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crsides View Post
Hello Spitdog.

You got yourself a winner there. It is a second model K22, only 1067 were made. Its value is roughly twice that of the 1st and 3rd models. Congrats.

Charlie
Thanks Charlie, I did a lot of research mostly on this site and many of you helped me with confirming what you just said.

I also have the catalog and the purchase receipt when this was purchased back in the 60's from a gun shop. I know it was purchased 2nd hand but it's still pretty cool to have the catalog from S&W and a receipt for $ 56.25.
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StakeOut View Post
Are there other numbers stamped into the right grip"

Under magnification I see numbers in a line across the grip between the 381 and the 604
I will check tomorrow in better natural light but just now looking at them I can't see anymore numbers, I now when I wet it with my finger they show a little better, so I will check again tomorrow.
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP@AK View Post
Those stocks are NOT older than the gun. They are, in fact, quite a bit newer. The checkering pattern is postwar and the shoulder indicates they are no earlier than about 1953. The prewar Magna stocks had a greater degree of coverage by the checkering and they had a sharp shoulder. Here are some pictures of the prewar style Magna stocks:

Exterior, showing the checkering and the sharp shoulder.




Inside, showing the machined steel retaining washer.
Beautiful pistol. Thanks for posting those pics especially the grips.
Before I pulled the grips I was getting a little nervous, because I knew what I had. I thought for sure they were going to be original because I knew the person that bought it in the early 60's . It didn't turn out the way I thought it was going to, but I'm still tickled to death.
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:17 PM
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Pre-war magna's sometimes turn up on flea-bay. I picked these up about 5 years ago fairly cheaply. They have no sn stamping; probably a post-war, after-market add-on. Their condition matches my shooter-grade k22/40, so they weren't too expensive (~$125). They're a little thicker than pre-war non-magnas and/or post-war magna's, so plan on adding a post-war target grip screw if you find some without. -S2

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Old 03-14-2017, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crsides View Post
Hello Spitdog.

You got yourself a winner there. It is a second model K22, only 1067 were made. Its value is roughly twice that of the 1st and 3rd models. Congrats.

Charlie
I'll just add letter that one.
It has a bead front sight.
It could have also gone to someone "special".

Non original stocks......Go find some Ropers
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Old 03-15-2017, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spitdog View Post
Beautiful pistol
Thanks. That one shipped in March, 1946. A very early postwar M&P. The stocks are original and number to the gun.

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Thanks for posting those pics especially the grips
Glad to help.

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I'm still tickled to death
You should be! Most of us would give our eye teeth for a K-22 Second Model!
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Old 03-15-2017, 08:56 AM
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I list two K22/40s, also SN 6875xx, both of which shipped on 5/16/1940. Yours could well have been in the same shipment. This is indeed one of the "Holy Grail" K22s for certain collectors of the breed. S&W got too enmeshed in producing military revolvers for the British at that time, and essentially stopped all other revolver production for the peacetime market. When production resumed after the war, a number of changes were made to the K-series target revolvers.
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Old 03-15-2017, 09:06 AM
spitdog spitdog is offline
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Quote:
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I list two K22/40s, also SN 6875xx, both of which shipped on 5/16/1940. Yours could well have been in the same shipment. This is indeed one of the "Holy Grail" K22s for certain collectors of the breed. S&W got too enmeshed in producing military revolvers for the British at that time, and essentially stopped all other revolver production for the peacetime market. When production resumed after the war, a number of changes were made to the K-series target revolvers.
DWalt, Thank you for that great info. I'm going to take some better pics today and will post later. Thanks again for the info.
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Old 03-15-2017, 10:28 AM
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Spitdog,here are the magna grips from my K22-40. A factory letter will tell what kind of grips your gun shipped with.
Bill
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Old 03-15-2017, 10:53 AM
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I can't swear to it, but I believe that I have read that all K22/40s were shipped with the pre-war style Magna grips, none with the round-top silver medallion service grips. Maybe someone can verify or refute that.
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
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I can't swear to it, but I believe that I have read that all K22/40s were shipped with the pre-war style Magna grips, none with the round-top silver medallion service grips. Maybe someone can verify or refute that.
They could be shipped with either.
Rich/ Paplinker posted a 1940 catalog that stated the magnas could be had at no extra charge.
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:03 PM
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Thank you everyone for the info. you have provided, it really helps me to understand the history of my new to me pistol.

I had to clean it up a bit, got the old oil out of the stocks. I think it came out nice. I'm a happy camper now. Oh and later on this week I should have new, as you guys would say " new shoes" target grips.

My mission is to shoot and and enjoy her. I'll post her with the new shoes later on.

Here are some better pics I took in better light. Thanks again everyone.
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bracebeemer View Post
Spitdog,here are the magna grips from my K22-40. A factory letter will tell what kind of grips your gun shipped with.
Bill
Thanks for that Bill, I may just do that factory letter. I think it would be a nice bit of added history.
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
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I may just do that factory letter
That gun definitely deserves a factory letter. It is more than worth the $75 investment.
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Old 03-15-2017, 01:00 PM
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I'd agree that in this case, a letter is warranted. But I am not sure it will resolve the issue of whether it shipped with Magnas or round-top service grips. It may say only that it shipped with checkered wood grips. Does anyone have a letter for a K22/40 which specifies exactly which type of grips shipped with it?
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Old 03-15-2017, 01:05 PM
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Not all were shipped with Manga style grips. My Model 22/40 is serial number 683117. It is fitted with the round top type grips that number to the gun.
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Old 03-15-2017, 01:54 PM
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I don't know if this adds anything to the history or as they would say " provenance " but I also have the S & W catalog that advertises the masterpiece.

Added: I guess not to the above, the catalog is dated 1965
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Old 03-15-2017, 02:49 PM
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I don't know if this has already been asked......how long have you had this gun? Isn't it nice when you find a gem?
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
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I don't know if this has already been asked......how long have you had this gun? Isn't it nice when you find a gem?
I have had the gun about 3 weeks but have known about it for yrs.
I was named as the beneficiary to a pistol collection, the relative that owned it, bought it in the 60's. I actually had the serial number a while back so I knew to a point what it was, but didn't understand the significance in what it was. You guys have filled in the blanks in that dept. and I'm thankful to all.
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:25 PM
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DWalt, here is my factory letter on my Masterpiece that I have pictured in this thread. I think that if it is not a magna grip Roy states "checkered silver medallion grips".
Bill
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:25 PM
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In the 1944 Gun Digest (which used pre-WWII information), the "K-22 Masterpiece" (that's what S&W called it) is pictured with round top service grips.
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:37 PM
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In that first Gun Digest issue it shows the Masterpiece revolver with round top service grips,but in the description it states "Choice of square or magna type." this of course does not make sense. I think they meant to say "service or magna type".
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bracebeemer View Post
DWalt, here is my factory letter on my Masterpiece that I have pictured in this thread. I think that if it is not a magna grip Roy states "checkered silver medallion grips".
Bill
Bill, Thanks for posting that. I think I may eventually send in for the letter also.

Can you or someone answer this. On the request form from S&W
I understand what there asking in all the boxes , except the trigger,sight and hammer box. What would I put there? Stainless steel bead on front sight ? Maybe. Thank you

http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.co...quest_form.pdf
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
I'd agree that in this case, a letter is warranted. But I am not sure it will resolve the issue of whether it shipped with Magnas or round-top service grips. It may say only that it shipped with checkered wood grips. Does anyone have a letter for a K22/40 which specifies exactly which type of grips shipped with it?
I have a 22/40 letter that states Magnas specifically.

It is pointed out that it was on the invoice in the letter.

Its on a early serial numbered March 1940 gun.
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:21 PM
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I suspect that if there was minimal or no extra cost involved, most K22/40 purchasers would have opted for Magnas.
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Old 03-15-2017, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
I suspect that if there was minimal or no extra cost involved, most K22/40 purchasers would have opted for Magnas.
Old habits are hard to break. Something new takes time to gain in popularity, plus I bet the factory would send out round top stocks, unless Magnas were specifically ordered, until they were all gone.
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Old 03-15-2017, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bracebeemer View Post
Spitdog,here are the magna grips from my K22-40. A factory letter will tell what kind of grips your gun shipped with.

K22 grip ?  New pics added in better light.-dsc02001-jpg

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Bill
Bill:

That package is one of the nicest out there. I love it when you post those photos.

Spitdog:

Here's another one with the magnas.





and a couple of pics of the "brochure" for your reference:





My guess is that over half of the K22/40 Masterpieces shipped with magnas...
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Old 03-15-2017, 10:26 PM
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For a gun with a very limited production, there sure are a lot of them here on the forum. My 2 both have service stocks. But just to add confusion to the issue, one of them has a grip adapter as commonly seen on RMs. It came that way when I bought it from David Carroll a while back. I don't remember when, but if its important you can ask him.

Now for the OP here. The next thing you should do is letter that gun. It will tell you what kind of correct grips you need to invest in. If you can attend a large gun show, take the gun with you. Its best to buy wood by seeing how it fits the grip frame of your gun. During the prewar the factory would screw the wood to the gun, then finish sanding the two together. Its why the early grips fit so well. Then they'd stamp the serial on the inside of the right grip, screw them together and send them off for finishing. And the gun would go to final polish. All is not lost because sometimes you can get a nice fit just by luck.

I had even better luck with the gun supplied by David Carroll. Months after I received it I was in a gun shop that was a receiving FFL for a different gun. The proprietor was bored and he and I were the only people at the shop. He was running around looking for something else to sell me. So from across the room he found a red box. Back in that time frame I was collecting every Outdoorsman box I could locate. And when he held it up even from 40 feet away I could get an idea of the condition. So I yelled over that I'd take it. And back then good red picture boxes were worth about $100. He was joking with me about not knowing how much to charge, and I didn't care. So we were finishing up the paper work and he grabbed a bag to put box and gun in. As he was sliding the box into the bag, I noticed it said "Masterpiece" instead of "Outdoorsman". I was shocked. Suddenly I had a new Katrina trailer for my lonesome gun.

And a poster here was kind during that time frame. He'd found another Masterpiece box in an old barn he tore down. It was semi melted by moisture. He couldn't sell it so he sent it to me. But I was bad and passed it on to David, who had a place for it in mind.

An additional interest item is you large size nickel plated screwdriver. One of my prewar Masterpieces came with that screwdriver. But one of my Postwar guns, K166 also came in a box with the same screwdriver. Leads us to believe they just used the same style after the war until they ran out and began shipping the black oxide coated ones.

Now on to value. Above the values were guessed at as north of maybe $2000. I guess the value is at least $5000, maybe more. But only with a correct set of grips. Its worth whatever you've got to spend to make it correct. That value isn't going to hold with postwar wood, or with the "Plainclothes" or "modified magnas" you've pictured it with. A little expense now could double the value.
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Old 03-15-2017, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
I'd agree that in this case, a letter is warranted. But I am not sure it will resolve the issue of whether it shipped with Magnas or round-top service grips. It may say only that it shipped with checkered wood grips. Does anyone have a letter for a K22/40 which specifies exactly which type of grips shipped with it?
I wish I knew where you got the idea all 22/40's were shipped with Magna's because I was of the same opinion----for a looooooong time. That said, I was a happy camper when the letter on the one I have now said it was shipped with grip adapter attached----and that pretty much ruled out Magna's---and the back side of the grips were like new----like they'd spent the better part of their life up against a grip adapter----instead of a grip frame. My next concern was the grips weren't numbered to the gun----until I figured out why. They weren't numbered to the gun because they weren't fit to the gun---nor was the adapter.

Sometimes it takes awhile, but I eventually get these things figured out.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:49 PM
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That said, I was a happy camper when the letter on the one I have now said it was shipped with grip adapter attached----=

They weren't numbered to the gun because they weren't fit to the gun---nor was the adapter.
Well that's interesting. Now we have 2 that shipped with grip adapters. And mine seem to fit like they were born there. And I can't remove the adapters and still make the wood fit correctly. The adapters need to be in place.
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Old 03-17-2017, 02:05 PM
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Your gun looks very clean, a nice catch for sure. The better the condition, the more it's worth. I follow the guns from David C's on gun broker. I have a set of pre-war magna grips that I would sell. PM me if interested and I'll send you my phone number or just send yours. Also have the box but it's not for sale, Larry
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:04 PM
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Pics of the grips, the medallions are peeling. The checkering is great, Larry

Spit dog, look for the discs like the ones inside these. They look turned, not stamped.
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:44 PM
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look for the discs like the ones inside these. They look turned, not stamped.
Those are what I refer to as "machined steel" washers, and they have not been blued. Some, I believe slightly later, came with the machined washers that are blued. After the war, the machined retaining washers were dropped in favor of stamped steel, and those also had a blue finish.

If I'm reading the serial number on yours correctly, it starts with an 8. It that case, these originally shipped on a postwar M&P revolver. That is the only possibility for a number this high. Could you please type in the actual serial number, in case I'm not reading it correctly? I would like to add these to my postwar M&P database.

Thanks.
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:54 PM
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Those are what I refer to as "machined steel" washers, and they have not been blued. Some, I believe slightly later, came with the machined washers that are blued. After the war, the machined retaining washers were dropped in favor of stamped steel, and those also had a blue finish.

If I'm reading the serial number on yours correctly, it starts with an 8. It that case, these originally shipped on a postwar M&P revolver. That is the only possibility for a number this high. Could you please type in the actual serial number, in case I'm not reading it correctly? I would like to add these to my postwar M&P database.

Thanks.
Oh my, I have a postwar M&P. SN C3816xx

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Old 03-20-2017, 08:04 PM
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Oh my, I have a postwar M&P. SN C3816xx
Yes. But that style stocks would not have come on it. Only the very earliest postwar M&P revolvers with the S prefix left the factory with prewar style Magna stocks. And then, all of them didn't. The highest serial number I have found so far is S818072. I've not located a single one that shipped after March, 1946, with the prewar style stocks.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:15 PM
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Yes. But that style stocks would not have come on it. Only the very earliest postwar M&P revolvers with the S prefix left the factory with prewar style Magna stocks. And then, all of them didn't. The highest serial number I have found so far is S818072. I've not located a single one that shipped after March, 1946, with the prewar style stocks.
Cool thanks, Would you happen to have a pic of the original stocks that came on mine? Thank you
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:20 PM
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Here is a pic of an S prefix M&P that shipped with prewar stocks. The serial number on this one is S814325. It shipped in March, 1946.


There are some M&P revolvers with numbers lower than S818072 that shipped with the postwar style Magna stocks. Examples include SV807355 (March, 1946) and SV810708 (also believed to have shipped in March, '46). SV809121 is another, although I do not have a ship date on that one.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:22 PM
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Cool thanks, Would you happen to have a pic of the original stocks that came on mine?
Yes. They would look like those on the bottom gun in this picture.


Compare them with the prewar style on the top gun (same gun as shown in my previous post).
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:26 PM
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Here is a pic of an S prefix M&P that shipped with prewar stocks. The serial number on this one is S814325. It shipped in March, 1946.


There are some M&P revolvers with numbers lower than S818072 that shipped with the postwar style Magna stocks. Examples include SV807355 (March, 1946) and SV810708 (also believed to have shipped in March, '46). SV809121 is another, although I do not have a ship date on that one.
Thanks, I think mine was 1954. So in would basically have the same Magna stocks, correct?

Never mind , I just reread your post, about the bottom pic.

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Old 03-20-2017, 08:36 PM
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Thanks, I think mine was 1954. So it would basically have the same Magna stocks, correct?
Actually no. Sometime in the first quarter of 1953, the old sharp shoulder type of postwar Magna stocks ran out of supply and were replaced with those having a more tapered shoulder. At first, they still had the square corners on the butt and were the same as those shipping on the target models (K-38, for example). A bit later, the M&P began shipping with the so-called PC Magna stocks with the rounded butts.

Here is a picture of the type used in 1954. The gun they are on in this picture is an S prefix M&P from September, 1947, so they are incorrect on this gun (they have since been replaced with period correct stocks).

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