Just inherited a couple 1917s. If I understand what I've read, this was a WW1 model that the British got a hold of that now has civilian grips. Of course I'm not sure though. So I could use some expert help please.

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The lack of a logo on the cover plate baffled me too.

Welcome to the forum.

Your others may be 1917s but not this one. The 1917s shipped to the army do not have the S&W monogram. Commercial 1917s of this general period but after 1920 and until 1936 have it stamped on the left frame side.

You have a ".455 Mk II Hand Ejector - 2nd Model"; the S&W monogram was stamped on the left frame side.

Many, many have been converted to 45 Colt or 45 ACP/AR. Please confirm which cartridge chambers properly in the cyl chambers. Yours must have been converted for the use of 45 ACP w/moon clips and 45 Auto Rim because the rear cyl face looks faced off for the required larger headspace.

Yours is the third version of British .455 revolvers produced as detailed below. There were several ways for these to make their way across the Big Pond to Britain, across the border to Canada, or originally sold here in the states and then immigrated somewhere else as evidenced by various assorted non - USA import, export, and/or proof stamps. Stamps also vary contingent upon the date any particular revolver made the "trip(s)".


There are three basic versions of .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three versions include some triple locks, and when they are roll marked with the cal., are roll marked only S&W 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book name’ references of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.

This is not be confused with the British revolver name “MK II” for the 455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model, which the British stamp MK II on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
The WWI British contract Colt is marked ".455 ELEY", different than The S&W 455 marking.

They are:

1. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’ converted to .455 chambering: 812* factory reconfigured, unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown. Most or all were likely originally .44 Spl, 666 for the British #1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666). The extra 146 in serial range #9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375.

The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].

NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it’s unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.

2. “.455 Mk II HE - 1st Model”, TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15; thus creating a possible ~ 68* duplicate serial #s of the 812 “.44 HE 1st Model TLs”, also chambered in .455 in 1. above.

*About Duplicate 44 HE series serial #s with Brit contract series S/Ns:

Duplicate numbers of the 666 .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (#1104-10417 in the 44 HE range - not all inclusive, are known and published) + 146 (#9858-10007 .44 HE range - not all inclusive, are published as well), can exist with 68 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (#1–5461 in the Brit contract # range), and with the .455 2nd Models (#5462 and up to #15375 - the last .44 HE 1st Model serial #) in the Brit range.

3. “.455 Mk II HE - 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. and 2. above, the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and the ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455, respectively.

The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17.

By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].

Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916.

The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models.

And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].

“As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .455 HE 1st Model, Triple Lock frames [#2. above with .455 chambering]. These guns will be numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett

I hope this is helpful,

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Wow, thank you ever so much. I can't locate the S&W logo on the other side either, perhaps I'm not looking in the right place. It does have the top factory stamp on the barrel.

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You're very welcome.

There's no doubt in my mind that it's been refinished (probably when converted) and that's where the logo went; it would be right below the cyl release button.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The revolver does indeed appear to have been heavily buffed before the re-blue was applied, which could account for the logo having been taken off completely. On the photos of the left side, you can see the boundary area on the barrel where they partially wiped off the British proof, but then held off in order not to compromise the "Smith & Wesson" too much; the difference in surface texture is quite pronounced and cannot be accounted for just by the lighting.

You are also missing the caliber marking that always went directly behind the SMITH & WESSON barrel stamping. That most likely indicates that the gun was re-chambered. Sometimes the person who converted the 455 would simply "X" out the last "5" or stamp a new caliber over the 455.

All 455 Mark II revolvers had a high gloss blued finish when they left the factory. There are not many around that still show the original finish and caliber. No matter what caliber you have, they shoot amazingly well for a hundred year old revolver.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Jim kinda knows his way around .455s .

Another giveaway that this is not a military 1917 is these were stamped U.S. Army/Model 1917/No. XXXX (for the SN) on the butt. Of course, many of these stampings were ground or polished off. The SN on this one is too low for a commercial 1917; the lowest numbered ones seem to be in the low 6 digit SN range (100000s).

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Welcome to the Forum.

Can you post a picture of the rear of the cylinder that shows the depth of the chambers? Have you tried to load it? What ammunition fits and allows you to close the cylinder?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Alan, the serial number range for the Model 1917 is stated as being 1 - 210,320. The US Army received serial numbers 1 through 175,000 from 1917 to 1919. Some were transferred to the Navy and Marines.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Correct, but I think I have seen guns here with the small left logo and an SN well below 171,000 (without the military stampings) that lettered as commercials. Probably leftover 1917 Armys with a commercial SN restamped after removing the U.S. Army, etc.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Alan,

Correct. Because WW I produced frames in the 1 to ~175,000 1917 military serial number range. WW I 1917 revolver numbered frames were not all completed and only 163,476 completed revolvers (the estimated last military unit made being #169959), and 7300 numbered but incomplete frames were actually shipped to the Army or sold commercially until 1/5/1921. S&W eventually re-purchased the 7300 frames back from the government after the war.

These therefore do not have the MADE IN U.S.A. stamp (introduced in mid 1922) on the right side front of the frame. And the lack of the small left side logo is normal on military models and all S&Ws during and following WW I until resurrected ~1920.

Frames produced in the early 1920s will have the MADE IN U.S.A. stamp and of course the logo.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

So are there any that are older than 1920's but still have the MADE IN U.S.A. mark?

No.

As stated, the MADE IN U.S.A. was not introduced until mid 1922.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thanks, I own one of the Brazilian 1917s and it's sn is 144xxx but says made in u.s.a.. Perhaps it is different for the ones that left America?

The factory bought back some 1917 frames following WW I. There were two batches of Brazilians-one group was made in the late 1930s, using new made frames. The second batch was assembled in 1946, using WW I frames.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Sorry Alan, I missed the reference to "commercial" 1917s.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

455's don't always have the caliber stamped on the barrel. I have a few, some with and some without the caliber stamp. It doesn't appear to be related to serial number blocks, but just random. Of course I don't own enough of them to state that as conclusive. Maybe Hondo44 knows.

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Jeb

Your frame was likely produced and numbered during WW I, therefore you likely have a 1946 contract Brazilian stamped, assembled, and completed after WW II, way after mid 1922.

BRAZILIAN CONTRACT 1917s (1937/1946)

In 1937 S&W made some 25,000 1917s for Brazil, most in serial range 181983-207043 with exceptions as usual that have serial #s far out of this range, using the late or post WW I produced flat top frame with sq notch rear sight, and these are stamped “MADE IN U.S.A.” on right frame side with the S&W trademark on left side of frame. They also have a Brazilian Crest on the side plate dated 1937. These first contract Brazilian 1917s had commercial checkered grips with flat chrome plated medallions. Many Brazilians can be found with the import mark of the importer that brought them back to the USA. One common importer stamp is "IA CO SAC CA" (International Arms Company, Sacramento, California) but stamps of other big importers of surplus arms can be observed as well.

The 2nd Brazilian contract run in 1946 of about 11,800, most using surplus WW I produced frames in the 166,000 – 175,150 range with exceptions as usual that have serial #s far out of this range, most with older style round top strap and small U notch rear sight. Some were the newer flat top frames generally in the 207,196 – 209,878 range, with a few round tops also reported in that range. These '46 contract guns had WW I surplus 1917 smooth grips. These are also stamped “MADE IN U.S.A.”. Serial #s read with barrel to the left like all post war hand ejectors.

Why 1946 Brazilians do not have sliding bar safeties and may have cyl hold open detents: “The first .45 H. E. Model of 1917 finished after World War I were made from frames and parts that had been completed and ready to be used for the military if the war had not ended. That is why you see a lot of post World War I "N" frames both .44 and .45 with the Springfield Armory inspection mark on the inside of the frame. Once these frames were used up the factory then began making new frames. However, to fill orders for Brazil after World War II the factory had to shake the crates and started to use up parts that had been made in World War I. You can usually tell these revolvers as the serial numbers are in the serial range of production handguns that were shipped during World War I such as serial number 168177 where most of the guns in this serial range were shipped to the military in January 1919.” Roy 45 HE 1937 Brazilian Shipment from 1946


“I believe the flat top-strap revision came to the N-frame in the 1926/1927 time frame. As I recall, the earliest Model of 1926 .44 HEs had round tops, but in short order the Model of 1926 production was using the flat-top frames with square-notch sight channels.” David Wilson

Brazilians have myriad anomalies. S&W clearly used re-purchased (from the government), and scoured old parts inventory for frames and pieces to assemble them. One can honestly say that you will see every combination of 1917 frames and parts of multiple vintages assembled, that one can conjure up! There are some trends but the old adage that "the main rule is, there are no rules" truly applies in no other case as well as it does here.


“Confusion abounds on 1917s.
So, I'll state a few things again that I believe to be facts-

#1. The first Brazilian Contract in 1936 was all commercial guns exactly like any other commercial 1917s of the period:
A- Flat Top
B- High Polish
C- Numbered ABOVE the WW I range
D- Frames will NOT have Springfield stamps because they were made after the War
E- Barrels and cylinders may or may not have Springfield stamps
F- Checkered grips with medallions
G- ALL have logos on left
H- All have numbers read with barrel pointing right

"1946 Brazilians-
Everybody wants to complicate these guns. They're simple. Hellstrom found a bunch of scrap iron, and turned it into money.
The remaining WW I frames were most likely discovered when they cleaned up after WW II and were getting ready to eventually MOVE the Factory. The new Factory was going to be totally self-financed. NO loans. Hellstrom had been hired as President at a fixed salary PLUS a percentage of profits. That deal eventually made him one of the highest paid executives in the US!
Are you tracking with me here?
CASH FLOW......
PROFITS......
We can take these obsolete, outdated, useless frames and scrap them when we move because we can't make guns with them because we haven't sold a round top frame with those awful, narrow sights in 20 years (since 1927)
OR........
Make the Brazilians an offer they can't refuse.
We'll be shipping those obsolete frames WAY off so they don't make us look bad. We'll be making good money off of scrap iron. We'll be using up all those damn barrels and cylinders the Gov made us buy back after WW I.
We're filling a 12,000 piece order with most of the materials paid for so long ago they are basically free.
WHOOPEE!
#2. 1946 Brazilians I have seen-
A- All are Round Top WW I frames
B- Satin Blue
C- No hammer blocks
D- Logo on left, "Made in USA" on right
E- Smooth grips. Newly made, not leftovers. Numbered to the gun.
F- Frames may or may not have a Springfield stamp. If a frame was a reject, it won't have an acceptance stamp. If a frame was simply a leftover that did not get used, it may have the stamp.
G- The number is read with barrel pointing left.
A 1946 Brazilian can have a serial number that falls ANYWHERE in the 1917 range. I've seen several 5 digits. I've seen a 4 digit. There are rumors of a 3 digit or two.
THIS is where the only mystery for me comes in-
WHY / WHEN / HOW was a WWI US contract number put on a surplus frame? IF the frame was numbered in WWI, it would also have the "US Army" marks. So, did they grind that off and re-stamp the number, or did they simply find an UNUSED number in the records and stamp it on a previously unnumbered frame? IF that is what they did, WHY? Why not just keep going with where the numbers were at that time? Puzzling.

"General Data-
Most Brazilians have mismatched grips. They apparently came in soaked or packed in oil or cosmoline.
I think Century pulled the grips off most of them, soaked them in solvent, and threw a pair of grips back on them. They paid no attention to whether the gun should have checkered or smooth grips.

"The Transition guns in the final run were all Flat Tops.
They all have modern hammer blocks whether they have the S or not.
All I have seen had swivels.
All shipped with checkered Magnas.

"Brazilian armorers apparently did many repairs over the years. I've seen replaced, unnumbered barrels made by S&W. I've seen replaced, unnumbered barrels that were NOT made by S&W that were probably made in Brazil.
I've seen reblued Brazilians that I believe had been reblued in Brazil. Generally, fairly nice matte blue. They did not appear to have been buffed. More likely pickled or bead blasted.”

“_There may be some Flat Tops in the 1946 contract.
If they found 11,498 usable WW I frames, I'd expect there to be 502 Flat Tops in the 1946 contract.
If they found 11,998 usable WW I frames, I'd expect there to be 2 Flat Tops in the 1946 contract.
Etc, etc....."
_________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Pretty confusing, yet interesting guns. Thanks for the info!

Correct many 455s have no cal. roll mark on the barrel; it seems most prevalent on the 1st batch and last batch of triple locks in the 44 spl s/n range. But my sense is, if there's any corresponding s/n blocks associated with the lack of cal. marking, they have not been identified.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

You're welcome.

The two subject models of this thread; the 455 British contract hand ejector variations and the 1917 Army and subsequent variations are indeed the most convoluted of the hand ejectors.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

These full moon clips were in the case a 1937 Brazilian was in and seem to look like they're right. If .45acp are dropped in without the clip they do fall clear inside the cylinder, unlike on the '37 however. So I'll have this checked by a gunsmith before I fire it just to make sure.

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So, a lot of them came back quite late, after 1968. We know IA CO from Victorys, M1 carbines and Norinco AK's; I wasn't aware that their mark is common on Brazilians, too.

Just by-the-by, here's the best available info (no guarantees) on who they were:

"IA CO SAC CA stands for InterAmerican Company, Sacramento, California which also was known as InterAmerican Import Export Company.

InterAmerican imported firearms and parts kits from China, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, England, Germany, Israel, Australia, Brazil and some other countries. Pacific International Merchandising Co (PIMCO), along with Armex Intl (a class 3 dealer) and Old Sacramento Armoury (a retail gun store) were the three different extensions that distributed the wares of InterAmerican at the local retail, wholesale and class 3 levels."

Don't spend any money with a gunsmith, it's not necessary.

The gun is originally chambered for the 455 Mk I. It also shoots the Mk II which is shorter. But that's OK because the Mk II has a rim so it won't fall in too far. The ACP is shorter than the Mk II but it's safe as well because the clips keep it from dropping in too far. That's how it was designed to work. Anyone on this forum familiar with these cartridges and this gun will tell you the same thing.

If you ever found any Mk I cartridges, you can also safely shoot those. They will stick out of the cyl like the ACP with the half moon clip because the Mk I will rest on the shoulder in the chamber.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thank you so very much for sharing all this information. I'm looking forward to range time this weekend.

Of course, like much of the older ammo, one must weigh the value of them as antique ammo over the value of shooting the gun. With some boxes of old ammo selling for $500 it can be some very expensive range time.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Jim, this thread is getting a little crowded, but wanted to clarify which gun are you discussing here? Is it the 455 Mark II or the Brazilian contract gun? I thought that all 2nd Model cylinders were originally designed for Mark II ammo and the Brazilian was a 45 ACP??

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I don't know if this will clarify anything, but here's how I understand it. There are 2 MKII's that mean different things. The British had .455 ammo in several lengths. The MKI was longer than the MKII and both were active in service at the same time although the MKII was intended to phase out the MKI ammo. In order to use both cartridges, the .455's chambers were reamed to MKI length which also meant it could shoot both length cartridges.

The second MKII is the configuration of the BSR. The .455 triple locks were called the MKI and the second, non-shrouded version, were the MKII's. Therefore, the .455 Hand Ejector, MKII.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Guy, the reason I am asking is that the OP's gun is a 2nd Model and Roy's book states that they were chambered for Mark II ammunition. There is information out there that 1st Models were chambered for 455 Mark I or Mark II ammunition, but did not know that the 455 2nds also had the longer chamber?

Believe that I might have found the answer. Finally pulled out a .455 2nd and placed an empty 45 Colt until it stopped. It measures .9" chamber, which would indicate that either Mark I or II will fit. The Mark I case is .87" and the Mark II is .77", so either will fit.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

You might want to look for a better ejector knob.
It appears that the butt number is also * marked.

Gary, I suspect that the Webley Mark I cartridge was considered obsolete since it was a black powder round. What was written was absolutely correct. The 455 British service revolvers were chambered for the Mark II round which was the standard British round at the time. But they were also chambered for the Mark I, that just wasn't mentioned.

Guy

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Gary,

Yes you did find the answer!

To clarify:

There are three basic versions of .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three versions include some triple locks, and when they are roll marked with the cal., are roll marked only S&W 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book name’ references of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.

This is not be confused with the British revolver name “MK II” for the 455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model, which the British stamp MK II on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.

Note: The WWI British contract Colt is marked ".455 ELEY", different than The S&W 455 marking.

You are also correct that Brazilian 1917s were only chambered for the 45 ACP/AR.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks Jim - chamber length added to my notes!

The whole "Mark" issue is still confusing to me. I think it is something like the chicken and the egg. I have read here that the Mark II did not refer to the gun, but rather to the ammunition. I also have a Canadian Military 12 pack of 455 that is identified as Mark VI cartridges from WWII era. The Webley revolvers used the Mark designation to identify their advancements in design and to identify their models. It seems that the ammunition was identified to match the gun and not the other way around. The Mark identification started in 1887 with the Mark I revolver, followed by the Mark II revolver in 1894, the Mark III revolver in 1897, the Mark IV in 1899, the Mark V in 1913 and the last one was the Mark VI in 1915, which was withdrawn from active service in 1947.

To me, the ammunition that was issued to the British who had S&W 455 HEs was actually Mark VI and not Mark II?? All ammunition issued to troops in WWI should have been Mark VI as well??

I used to collect British/Canadian Snider Enfield rifles and their ammunition used "Mark" designations all the way back to 1866. They went through nine changes, ending with a Mark IX designation in 1871. Their rifles, however, only went to Mark III?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

The .455 Webley MKVI ammo was not introduced until 1939 to comply with the Hague Convention prohibition of expanding/flattening bullets. Up until then, the MKII cartridge was the military round primarily used by the UK and colonies.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

I'll admit right off, that I have little knowledge of the British "Mark" designations. It always seemed to me that the Mark system for British cartridges and for British guns was separate designations.

I have an Enfield 1853 Pattern rifle stamped Mark II.

My limited understanding from reading is consistent with Guy's above about the cartridge uses.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I found that information on another site. After checking the International Ammunition Association, I found an interesting article on 455s. Those Confusing .455s - International Ammunition Association

Revolvers . . . . . . . . . . .Cartridges
Webley Mark I 1889 . . . 455 Webley Mark I 1891 (Cordite 1894)
Webley Mark II 1894 . . .455 Webley Mark II 1897 (reintroduced 1900)
Webley Mark III 1897 . . 455 Webley Mark III 1898
Webley Mark IV 1899 . . .455 Webley Mark IV 1912
Webley Mark V 1913 . . . 455 Webley Mark V 1914
Webley Mark VI 1915 . . .455 Webley Mark VI 1939

This source indicates the ammo matched the gun until the Mark VI. It still leaves the question as to why the S&W 455 indicated the use of Mark II ammo, while the ammo of WWI was Mark V according to this source.

The big news was that the Mark IV and V were man-stopper bullets and there must have been some issues, because the article states that the Mark II was reintroduced around 1912 and survived until the Mark VI in 1939. Still confusing, but this article clears some things up for me.

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Gary
SWCA 2515