Hi, I'm looking for a little more information about the gun that was found in my grandfather's attic when he passed away. We know it belonged to his uncle, who was enlisted in the British army in 1915, made it through the Great War before joining the RAF in 1920, but we know nothing about the actual gun.

I was a little surprised to see the Smith & Wesson name given that I had though Webley's were their preferred manufacturer. Any information on the gun, or how to keep it it shape (or improve it's current shape) would be greatly appreciated.

Also looking for information about how one would go about transferring the firearm overseas, it's currently with my Dad. I now live in Florida and we would very much like to keep it in the family and pass it on to my boys.
Thanks for any advice!

Welcome! It is an N or large frame revolver, and with its history is most likely a .455 Hand Ejector Second Model. It was chambered to use the .455 Mk II (aka Webley) round, and tens of thousands were produced in the 1915-'17 era for use by British forces.

There is a saying about "looks like it has been through a war and back", and this one fits that description. Wiping down the exterior with a light coat of gun oil and running a brass brush with cleaning solvent followed by oiled patches through the chambers, then dry patches, would be a good idea.

I know it is legal to export antique guns in obsolete chamberings 'from' the USA to GB but not sure about the opposite. Best to have your father check export laws on his end. Written documentation of its history for future generations would be really great too. Hope this is helpful.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Welcome to the Forum.

Sorry to hear of your loss. That is definitely one that needs to be saved.

Great Britain didn't have enough sidearms for either WW I or WW II. The .455 S&Ws were substitute standard during the Great War. For the 2nd WW, Great Britain bought S&W Military & Police revolvers chambered in .38 S&W, which is NOT the .38 special cartridge.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I'd place odds on that. In fact, I believe there is little doubt. The markings near the rear edge of the frame look very similar to those on a .455 that I once owned.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

The first picture I posted also has "Smith & Wesson .455" engraved on the barrel, I think there's some original ammo with it, so I think we have the caliber down. Now what was the difference between the MkI and the MkII?

The .455 Mk I had a case that was 21.7mm long and it was loaded with black powder. The Mk II had a 19.3mm long case and the charge was cordite (nitro). Better burning characteristics were achieved with the cordite when used in the shorter case.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Welcome. No idea on how to transfer a modern firearm to most country's because so many have rather strict laws. What country are you relocating to?

The Mark I is an older and slightly longer cartridge. I just recently learned that the 2nd Model 455 HE will chamber either round, but Mark II is the only available ammunition. I reload, but was able to purchace some Fiocchi 455 ammo a few years ago. Your cylinder shows the original length, so if there is no counter-boring at the rear of the cylinder, you have an non-converted 455.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Well, it's currently in England and I wish to bring it over to the US, more specifically Florida. I'm sure the cylinder is non-converted, I don't imagine it's been used in any way since my great-great uncle left the RAF in 1924.

Thanks for this, I will definitely try and keep it well maintained going forward. 70 years in an attic probably didn't serve it too well.

This is a good start. Check the ATF website as well. Documentation is critical, especially to document the age of the firearm. Also, have your relatives look into whether it is legal for them to export a handgun of that age from GB. Bear in mind that with few exceptions, it is now illegal to own a handgun in the UK. I hope this helps.
Requirements for importing new or antique firearms/ammunition

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SV,14,17,21,28,29,39,66,586

I smell trouble here. It's pretty much illegal to own firearms in England. I think some research is necessary here to see if he can even legally posses this fine old gun. I would think he would have to legally possess it in order to export it to the US.

I talked to a gun store owner when I was visiting a couple of years ago and heard a few horror stories. You might find a legal gun store that will fill you in on the current law or a solicitor who could give advice as to disposition.

Tread carefully.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Woostershire,

Welcome to the forum.

As stated above, you do indeed have a ".455 Mark II Hand Ejector - 2nd Model" (the Mark II referring to the ammo) in S&W nomenclature; a British Service Revolver Mk II (the Mk II referring to the revolver model) in British military nomenclature.

It's the 3rd and last version of these revolvers made under contract by S&W:

3rd version: “.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. and 2., the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and the ".455 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" produced in .455, respectively.

The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17.

By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].

Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916.

The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models.

And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].

I would Google to find a firearms importer in your area to talk to about the importation of granddad's war time trophy. That's the only way you'll get the 'straight skinny' on getting it to you. Hopefully England will let it be exported instead of confiscating it. Good luck. If they do let it go thru official channels, it's likely get a lot more proof stampings and export on it like "NOT ENGLISH MADE".

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I suggest your father talk to a solicitor absolutely as soon as possible both as to possessing the revolver and to exporting the revolver. It is my understanding that in UK solicitors and their clients have legal professional privilege. Given that it is a family heirloom and has potentially some historical significance to British history the money spent on a solicitor will be well spent. Better to a solicitor than a barrister.

On the US side, some FFLs have licenses to import. Otherwise a larger firearms importer may be able to point you in the right direction as to how to import.

The Webley Mark VI was the standard British side arm during WWI if I recall correctly. The thing is, they didn't have enough of them and couldn't manufacture them fast enough, so they contracted with several foreign companies to make up the shortfall. Smith and Wesson actually supplied two versions of their large revolver. The First Model Hand Ejector (the Brits designated it the Mark I) and the version you have, the 2nd Model HE (Or per the Brits: the Mark II). Not to be confused with the .455 Webley Cartridges, Marks I & II.

Colt also supplied large revolvers chambered in .455 Webley (or ".455 Colt" / ".455 Eley", to use Colt's designation for the same cartridge). As well, Colt supplied some Model of 1911 semiautomatic pistols chambered in Webley's .455 rimless round.

That still wasn't enough, so England contracted with some Spanish manufacturers to supply their copies of the older S&W top break revolvers, chambered of course in .455 Webley. The rather theatrical picture below shows one of these. (This was probably taken from a movie where historical accuracy was not paramount.)

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You're shy a few manners.

All the S&Ws had 6.5 inch barrels. The barrels on the Colt revolvers were 5.5 inches. Here is my refinished Colt from "The Great War":


Dominion is / was a Canadian ammunition manufacturer. You can see they also used the ".455 Colt" designation. Below is a comparison of the Mark II (these by Fiocchi) and the longer Mark I (Dominion again) cartridges. You will also note that Fiocchi used small pistol primers.

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You're shy a few manners.

Back in the 1970s, I had a Webley MK IV chambered in .455. It must have been loose, as I loaded deep seated .45 Colt rounds in it. I found a box of Dominion .455 Colt ammo and it was some of the cleanest shooting rounds I have ever fired.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

THat's not a Spanish gun. It 's a Webley WG. Those came in several versions over the years, some with round butts, some with square. Officers prior to 1920 bought their own sidearms so it was common for them to own these or Wilkinson-Webleys. The off thing here is the holster, which is not well polished. Officers had military servants, called "batmen" to polish their gear, etc. I think this film is, The Four Feathers, a later version of the classic version.


Spanish .455 copies of old S&W top-break guns were usually issued to the Veterinary Corps, to kill wounded horses. I don't think they saw much use by regular soldiers.


In, Zulu and , Flame Over India, MK VI revolvers stood in for other models. I guess those in, Zulu were meant to represent Webley-Pryse guns. Flame Over India was set n 1905, so the captain couldn't have had a MK VI, introduced in 1915. But he could have easily had a Webley Army model that looks very like a MK VI, save for the rounded MK IV style front sight.


THese Webleys mentioned were not adopted as official issue, and are unknown to most US shooters. They are of much nicer finish and have smoother actions than the official MK series guns. They were commercial products.


I think the best was the Webley-Wilkinson Model of 1911. It was a commercial gun,but looks like the later MK VI except for the bright blue finish and some "strawed" parts. Stocks were walnut with a gold oval for the owner's initials, not black Bakelite. Model of 1905 differed in having a different rifling twist.


If I was an officer then and could get commercial ammo, I'd have bought .455 Colt loaded by either Winchester or the Canadian firm of CIL/Dominion. This was the longer MK I case, but loaded with flake powders and giving a nominal 750 FPS in lieu of the app. 600 FPS of the service MK II load, both with 265 grain lead RN bullets.


I haven't time now to discuss the .455 Manstopper Mk. III and IV rounds. But they were said to work so well that some lots were marked as not for use against Europeans.


The OP's ancestor was in the RAF. RFC, later RAF, used many S&W .455's of both the Triple Lock and MK II models, as well as Colt .455 autos and some Webley .455 autos.


NOTE: the films mentioned here are on YouTube. Look for the hi-res version of, Zulu.

I fired some CIL 7X57mm & .303. It shot well and burned clean. I did not, alas, get to shoot a moose with it.