I am looking at a serial number 58xxx hand ejector. The serialm number says it is 1902 1st change (range 33804-62449) . This is a target, with square butt.
Is this possible?

Al

Is it a .38 Special or .32-20? If the latter, I suspect you have a Model of 1905 from around 1913. So do all SNs match?

I do not have the gun, but it is listed as a .38 spl. Best I can make out the grainy pic, the barrel is 38 S&W Special. I suspect they lost a digit in the SN, making it 1905 ch 4. listing documentation is sketchy, no mention or pics of serial numbers.

In the SCSW, the text under the .38 Model of 1902, 1st change, notes that "... the first square butt K frames show up in the middle of this model serial number range at about 58,000". So if the seller got his info there, that could fit.

It is possible that at a SN around 58xxx, it could have a square butt. Which would make it a Model of 1905. SN 586xx (.38 Special) shipped in 6/05.

I have asked for additional information. This may be one for my collection.
Re-read the SCSW - this is a 5-screw, if sn is correct then 1905 would work, but would make this one of the first!

A 38 Special M&P with serial number 582XX shipped July 1906 in the SWCA database, so you probably are looking at what should be called a very early Model 1905. Is there a cylinder stop screw just ahead of the trigger guard?

Added: Sorry, I just added this post as you were already posting yours. 5 screw would be appropriate for a Model 1905. Roy Jink book states the Model 1905 started with serial number 62,450, but there has been lots of debate about that date.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Yes, it would be an early Model 1905. There has been quite a bit discussed in the past on this forum about the introduction of the K-frame square butt and how it screwed up everyone's model nomenclature.

The pictures of this gun also show the barrel flared at the frame, wasn't this a change from the 1902 straight barrel also? I am still leary of this gun, it has a "Made in U.S.A." on right side, but once again S&W did some inconsistent things.....

The MADE IN USA is a red flag. That was introduced in mid-1922, and then none of this discussion would matter. You might be right with your missing digit in the serial.

Check for a star on the butt. If the gun was returned before WWII, the factory often would restamp revolvers using the roll stamps that they had at the time. I have seen a factory refinished WWI 455 HE with the 4 line English/Spanish frame stamp. That single line MADE IN USA ran from 1922 until 1948.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

A factory re-work is a possibility. And the flared barrel would also be correct on a 1902 of that serial; only the original no-change still had the straight-tube barrel root of the 1899.

It really all comes down to a clear photo of the butt with the complete serial and anything else there visible.

the gun arrived at my FFL today. the real sn is six digit, nowhere near the advertised one. still a nice piece and I will send pics when I pick it up. All numbers match the real serial number. Not going to keep the custom target grips with a brass inlay diamond.

I have a call into the seller to ask where the gun I bought really is. My FFL is stuck with a receiving sn and the one he is transferring.

Al

Well yes, you clearly received a different gun than was advertised. You have a Model 1905 - 4th Change with s/n 58XXXX. It's from the approximate period of the very late 1930's to 1940. The as advertised earlier gun is valued $100 to 200 more in equal condition.

The MADE IN U.S.A. is correct for that model and vintage. It should have a large S&W monogram on the right side plate. The target model is worth a premium if originally factory installed. A matching serial # on the bottom of the rear sight (when removed) will verify that.

SERIAL # LOCATIONS:
Always use optical magnification including a flashlight when looking at or for serial numbers to observe the information accurately.

To confirm all parts are original, check for the 6 matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956 and a few as much as 3 years later.

1. Gun butt - or fore strap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material. (except most post war target grips because individual fitting not required.)


Pre war fixed sighted guns have serial #s in 6* locations, target** models as many as 9. Triple Locks have 7 including the mid lock cam plate, therefore 10 locations on Target models.

*Post War continued the 6 fixed sight locations thru ~1956, and 9 s/n locations on early Post War Transitional target models with pre war target sights only, thru 1957, but dropped the 3 target sight locations post war on the new Micro-click sighted models, which were no longer specifically fitted to the top strap.

**Target models will have the serial number as shown:

1. front sight blade,
2. under rear sight, and
3. rear sight blade.

If the s/n is more than 4 digits, the front and rear sight blades can have a partial s/n. All three parts must be removed to observe the #s. Non-numbered front and rear sight blades have typically been replaced, in most observations.

We owe the Russians a vote of thanks; having been the 1st to require multi-serial # locations on their S&W #3 contract revolvers.

TARGET SIGHT NUMBERING:
Photo by Mike Priwer

Photo by Mike Priwer

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I got the gun, all numbers match, what they called sn was assembly number.

see current thread "1926 k target"

for me this is a great find.

Al

you provide great info. this has small monogram left side, serrated backstrap and trigger and stepped extractor cutout making my guess 1926-1926.

didn't consider the sn under sight but there it is!

Thanks

al

One has to remember that all pre-WW2 .38 K-frames are in one long serial number series, that runs from 1 ( the first 1899 ) all the way through 1000000 in 1942). There are several different models included in this range: 1899, 1902, 1905, K-22 Outdoorsman, and K-32. With the exception of the model of 1899, the other four are running concurrently, from their individual inception to 1000000. The model of 1902 starts at ~21000, and the model of 1905 starts at 58000. The K-22's and K-32 start much later, somewhere around 600000.

The 1902's and 1905's are identical, no matter what the serial number, except for the butt configuration. The 1902's are always round-butt, and the 1905's are always square butt.

There is, of course, the other pre-WW2 K-frame series, used for 32-20's, and a very very few K-32's.

Regards, Mike Priwer

I realize (or at least think I realize) we've been through all this before----and as best as I recall the distinction between 1902's and 1905's is based upon butt shape and brochures of the period-------only. (??)

So what's this one? It letters as a ".38 Military & Police Model of 1902 First Change Target". The serial number is 59794. It's a "pre 5 screw 4 screw", 6 1/2" barrel, SQUARE BUTT, shipped February 26, 1906, and delivered to a S&W employee. The letter notes it's in the serial range for a round butt, and "certainly was shipped after the square butt model had been introduced".

And so------------------------------??

Ralph Tremaine