This is my rare WWII Smith and Wesson M&P. It is a pre-Victory model sold to South Africa. The Union of South Africa ordered 21,347 pistols from Smith and Wesson on 19 February, 1940 and production began in March. Serial numbers ran from 685xxx to 719xxx. The pistols were in commercial bright blue finish, checkered stocks and had 4 inch barrels. Less than the ordered quantity actually went to South Africa, a portion being diverted to England. This pistol has been refinished and has matching numbers (except for the grips). It has the deaccession mark of the Union of South Africa along with a rack number, 5120. The serial is 706xxx. It also retains the original .38 S&W caliber. Few of these pistols have surfaced in this country. The South Africans fought in North Africa as well as in other areas.

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Another side view.

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Rack markings.

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Below are picture of one I acquired in June of 2015. According to my Letter from S&W, Mr. Jinks, it was shipped directly to the Union of South Africa on Dec. 1, 1940 in a shipment consisting of 1,800 revolvers.

It has also made its way to England sometime later since the British markings have been applied.

Mine has a 4" barrel and is still in its original .38 S&W configuration. It does show a lot of character. I have only cleaned it up sufficiently to remove the surface rust. I acquired it from an estate sale here in Alabama.

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Nice ones.

We have a member here named Peter who is from South Africa and knows all about these. There have been some very detailed discussion threads in the past. I recommend using the search function if you haven't already.

A number of errors here GRI. The first order was for 8800 and all were delivered. The 4" serial numbers went up to the 780xxx area. Some later orders were fulfilled with 5" barrels. The Arrow in U was the SA Union Defence Force (UDF) property mark, not a Sold Out Of Service mark. My source is the UDF Archives.

I would much appreciate a PM from you giving me the full serial number of your example for my records.

Thanks
Peter

Another good learning thread. Thanks.

__________________
Mike
S&WCA #3065

Hello GRI, your rare SA M&P? Man we have different definitions of the word rare. Well, to each his own. Best

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

South African units, both air and ground, fought in Italy and against Mussolini in northeastern Africa as well as against Rommel.


In Korea, the SAAF joined the USAF in opposing the Communist forces. They flew both Mustangs and Sabres.


Additionally, some South Africans flew in the RAF. The most famous was the renowned "Sailor" Malan, formerly in the Merchant Marine. His brother or cousin was Daniel Malan, later an architect of the apartheid policy.


One such exchange pilot with the RAF has been covered here. He flew Hurricanes and Spitfires in N. Africa and in Burma. He was actually shot down when his Spit got too close to a B-29 with a nervous gunner. But he survived and his six-inch M&P .38-200 was seen here. He died at 97, I think. We got to see a lot of photos.


The six-inch barreled .38 was issued to him by the RAF. I don't know if SA got any of that barrel length. Peter has shown us his five-inch gun that made its way home with a WO Bucke, of an armored car regiment. He took meticulous care of it, and on his death, his daughter sold it to Peter, I believe.


Four, five, and six inch barrels with commercial finishes and checkered stocks were the norm on Commonwealth .38's until April, 1942. After, only five-inch guns were supplied to them, with dull gray finishes and plain walnut stocks. Over 568,000 were sent, and I suspect that WW2 production of Enfield and Webley revolvers wasn't much greater, if any. Colt sent a much smaller number of Official Police models. I read a book by a British officer who carried one in Burma. "The Hundred Days of Lt. MacHorton", by Ian MacHorton. Going by memory on title and author.


South Africa was settled by Europeans from 1652, when the Dutch founded Cape Town. Liberal media bias has prevented Americans from learning most of the positive things about the country.


In addition to .38's, you may see No. 4 .303 rifles with SA forces markings.

No Texas. The 6" barrel ones are early British purchases before a contract with S&W was in place for the 5" ones.

It seems as if they were only issued to the RAF, probably because they will not properly fit into the standard Pattern '37 holster. This would be a major problem for a soldier in the field, but not for a pilot in the cockpit. I have a RAF marked 6" one; nice because my father, father-in-law and myself were in the RAF!

Peter

Have you seen the photo of RAF pilots with the six-inch ones leaning 'way out of their holsters? I'm amazed they could even fasten the flaps! This was at a base in North Africa.


I've also seen those long ones in Canadian and Australian hands. They'd probably fit in Pattern 37 holsters for Webley MK VI's, but would have too much room inside and would slop around in the holsters.

Tex, I finally got around to trying a 6" M&P in a (Canadian) P'37 webbing holster. The gun fits nicely as if the holster was designed for it. In comparison a Webley Mk VI is a tight fit, especially when the flap is closed.

Given your knowledge about South Africa, you, and others, may find this short promo video for a new book on SA designed firearms interesting:


Peter

Understand, as I stated they are seldom encountered in the US. In this type of military production, 23,347 compared to 568,204 is not exactly high production. You must think that the 600 plus 7th cavalry Colt SAA's carried by Custer's men are common. Man, I've got to wonder what you think is rare. I've showed you mine, show me your South African M&P's.

There is no precise definition of rarity beyond the general statement that "rare" simply means that not many discrete items were made. And "not many" means pretty much whatever you want it to mean.

Thanks. I no longer have an M&P or any web holsters. When I had a Webley MK VI, it fit the correct web holster quite well, but I never tried a .38 in that holster. I had a .38 holster for them, for five-inch barrels.


What holster was issued for Colt .45 autos? In, "A Bridge Too Far ", it looked as if Sean Connery was using a Pattern 37 .38 holster with his .45 auto. I know that many .45 autos were used by British Commando and paratroop forces. It was reportedly the standard Commando handgun, insisted on by Churchill. And they retained the Thompson SMG well after most British units were issued Stens.


The last video I watched about South Africa (other than game reserve stuff) was about Rovos Rail, which operates a luxury train ride from Pretoria to Cape Town, with a stop at the Kimberly mines.


It 's on YouTube, and the food alone makes it worth watching. I also recognized most items on the wine list, mostly South African wines. The wine industry there began at Gov. Simon van der Stel's estate in 1655. Most Americans are very surprised to learn that Cape Town was founded by the Dutch in 1652. Our biased media kept most about South Africa from us while they dwelt solely on the presumed evils of apartheid.

To me, it means like a .45 Luger, a Colt Paterson or Walker, that sort of thing.


To people selling a gun on the Net, it means whatever they're trying to sell.

Nice one!

Peter

Peter-


Thanks. Is the top rifle on the cover by Musgrave? I met Trevor Musgrave at the SHOT show years ago. Plans to sell his rifles here evidently fell through due to the US ban on importing or exporting arms from South Africa during the apartheid period.


Pity: they were nice rifles.


I corresponded with several South Africans while writing an article on Ruger's .22 pistols, as I knew that the ban had caused some clubs there to run up very substantial counts of shots fired. They got replacement guns much easier than I'd thought, but some of the older ones had fired phenomenal amounts of ammo. Ruger's export director at the time pointed out that some European clubs had those .22's that had exceeded A MILLION shots! He asked that I mention that Ruger did not ship guns to South Africa while that ban lasted. They came in via secondary shippers in Europe.


If anyone here wants to read that article, it was in, "American Handgunner" for Nov-Dec,1980. Somone once posted a link here to read it Online, but I don't have the link.


Of course, I discussed the .22 auto pistols overall, not just their use in South Africa. But I was intrigued to learn that one city armed its water supply guards with them, and a correspodent had one of the rare ones with a tapered 5.25 inch barrel. He said it was a good gun, but .22LR ammo was "iffy" on rock rabbits, which are pretty tough for their size. He killed a puff adder or two with his Ruger 22 pistol.


This strays a bit from the use of .38-200 revolvers in WWII, but I hope will interest some. Not the first time we've seen a little thread drift here...


BTW, I watched the video. Quite nice. For some here, it'll be the first time they've heard a South African accent. I must say, I'd rather hear Candice Swanepoel speak, as she has visual advantages over any male narrator. But, seriously, that looks like a great book launch party. And the book seems very impressive, too. I was surprised to see those Bren guns, as I didn't know they were made there. I do know about the R1 (FN) and R4 (Galil) rifles being made in South Africa.

Way back in the 1960s, I had a South African girlfriend one summer. That was a rare experience.