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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 04-25-2017, 08:13 PM
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Default 45 Auto Rim brass from 45 Colt

I've been reading the forum for awhile, and finally decided to register and ask a question.
I have a M1917 S&W .45 revolver. I've been reloading using .45 ACP brass with moon clips. I have .45 Auto Rim brass on the way.
I have some .45 Colt brass. As an experiment, I cut a few to length and sized them. I do not intend to load them and fire them, but they do seem to fit, and headspace on the case mouth, so the rim would be used only for extraction, not headspacing.
Again, I do not intend to load them, but I am curious if this is an option. Would the unsupported section beneath the rim be a problem?


I bought the revolver last fall. The lanyard loop had been removed, along with the serial number. Everything else matches but I know it's that serial number that matters. I contacted the ATF and sent them a letter detailing the gun and the missing number. I'm waiting for a response, but from talking to local ATF agents, they don't see it as a real problem, but I have to get approval to have the number restamped. I know, maybe I should have let it go but with my luck...
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:10 PM
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There is no safety concern with trimming .45 Colt brass to .45 ACP length so it will headspace on the case mouth. Actually a reasonably good idea. Extraction might be a bit dicey with the small rim though. This is the reason the Model 1909 cartridge had a larger rim, to be used in the Model 1909 revolver. Because of the larger rim it cannot be used in the Single Action Army.

There really isn't any "unsupported area" ahead of the rim. The case head is about 3/16" thick, so there is solid brass well into the chamber. At least with cases made since WWII!
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:27 PM
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I primed one of the cases and it fired and extracted properly.
It's a great shooter, one of my favorites, though the moon clips tend to hang up after fouling sets in. I'll just wait for the .45 AR brass.
Hopefully, the ATF will approve the restamping. If not...well, they get the frame and I keep everything else.
I bought it with my C&R license from an antique shop in NH. Apparently the previous owner was a judge - if he didn't worry about the serial number, maybe I shouldn't have either. Oh well.
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:10 AM
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Welcome to the forum.

I agree completely with Alk8944, he knows his stuff.

I have done that with Colt brass as well, no issues at all. And because the cases are shorter once trimmed, never had extraction problems. The short cases fall out of the chambers before they can get tangled under the extraction star. And the rims are the same diameter as the 45 AR which never give problems.

One note: shortening 45 Schofield cases have a thinner case wall and don't make cases swell when bullets are seated like some 45 Colt brass when cut short.

You did the right thing by contacting BATFE, I think. The stories I've read about on this forum of similar situations have turned out well. Good luck and let us know the outcome.

If you get the go ahead, to re-stamp: if you can't find someone with the right size digits or a stamping jig so the numbers come out neat and straight on the butt where they show, you may want to stamp on the left side of the grip frame under the stock so it doesn't show.

Brownells has the jig and different size stamps that I've used with good success. You can't match the old fashion font of the original numbering stampings on the gun, but it's a shooter anyway.

Stamps are available
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:13 AM
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Thanks for the replies. Maybe I'll take it out of the "what if" stage and load up some rounds using the .45 Colt brass. I keep the loads on the light side with my vintage and antique guns.
I saw the revolver in a shop about 3 hrs from my house but left without it. But it stayed in my head. I got the C&R license for that gun (I live in MA- 'nuff said about that). The shop owner held it for me, I got the license in about 3 weeks and made the trip back to get it.
It came with a very old holster, and it had some holster rust, but I cleaned and touched it up. Whoever cut the lanyard loop off was a butcher, but, like you said, its a shooter.
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:59 AM
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A moonclipped 45ACP case & a 45 Auto Rim have .085-.089" of rimmed thickness. The 45 Colt rim only has .060" of thickness. How can this work? Don't you have too much headspace?

Also, I don't understand the title says "45 Auto Rim brass from 45 Colt". Doesn't the OP have a M1917 in 45ACP?

What am I missing?

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Old 04-26-2017, 06:26 AM
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We cut the 45 Colt cases the exact overall length as the ACP and AR; just long enough for the case mouth to headspace on the ACP shoulder in the chamber. The Colt rim sits .025" off the cyl face and sticks out of the chamber just like an ACP case does, with or without a clip. The primer is the same distance from the recoil shield as the ACP or AR primer. Proper headspace is maintained.

The AR headspaces on it's thicker rim (and its case mouth).
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:32 AM
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Pictures please..gun and holster at least..
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:34 AM
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DM32:

By the way, welcome to the forum!!

Best Regards, Les
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DM32 View Post
Whoever cut the lanyard loop off was a butcher, but, like you said, its a shooter.
I've seen many done that way, unfortunately. File flat, sand and polish. Lanyard swivels are about $20 and easy to find if you want one.

A properly stamped serial on the butt will be behind the swivel hole, reading right side up with muzzle pointing to the right for a pre war gun. To the left for a post war gun.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:12 AM
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Yeah, the title of the post isn't quite right. Basically I made .45 ACP brass with a small rim from 45 Colt brass, or 45 AR brass with a smaller rim.
I did post the same question on another forum (generally a good forum) and I got a little "roasted." That's the beauty of gun-specific forums like this.
Here's part of what I put in the BATF letter:
"The serial number 85779 S is still located on the bottom of the barrel, on the cylinder face, on the back side of the ejector, and penciled on the inside of the wooden grip. There are assembly numbers on the frame (56874) and the same number on the yoke (crane), and on the inside of the side plate. There are inspector’s marks on the frame and near the trigger guard (S1, S2). There is a “flaming bomb” stamped on the left side of the frame, near the hammer."
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
I've seen many done that way, unfortunately. File flat, sand and polish. Lanyard swivels are about $20 and easy to find if you want one.

A properly stamped serial on the butt will be behind the swivel hole, reading right side up with muzzle pointing to the right for a pre war gun. To the left for a post war gun.
True, for a commercial model. However, I believe this is a military issue 1917.

Doe you think we have confused the OP yet?
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:47 AM
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Here is a link to the lanyard swivel from Numrich in case you want to replace it: Bad Request

Don't have any idea why it says "Bad request", but it does link correctly!
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:58 AM
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As you can see in the photo, the grips were also damaged when the lanyard loop was removed, so I don't think I'd replace the loop. It's more of a beast than a beauty, but it's definitely a great shooter.
It's funny how 4 of my last 5 handgun purchases involved Smith & Wesson somehow:
1917 .45 S& W
.38 Smith & Wesson Airweight
1908 Colt Police Positive - .32 S&W ammo
Enfield "Tanker" .38 S&W ammo

Back in the day (80s), my original service revolver was a big old K frame Smith and Wesson .357 (I don't remember the model). I liked it much better than the Sig 9mm we switched to.

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Old 04-26-2017, 10:10 AM
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I'm not trying to bash the OP so please don't take this wrong. Just expressing a couple opinions.

First, why on earth go to all this trouble cutting up perfectly good 45 Colt brass to head-space in the chamber, when the 45 ACP is available nearly everywhere? Extraction you say! Do you own a pencil? Seriously, I don't get it.

Second, I continue to be amazed at the revultion so many shooters have to full-moon clips. Clips (half-moon originally) that hold semi auto cartridges are what a 1917 was designed for. The AR came along years later for the hold outs (even back then) who couldn't abide the clips.

I've owned close to a dozen 45 ACP revolvers in the last 30 years (still have a few in the safe) and have never fired an "un-clipped" ACP round or "Auto Rim" through any of them. I used to load and unload the clips by hand before the proliferation of the loading and unloading tools available today.

OK, rant over. (smiley face goes here)

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Old 04-26-2017, 10:23 AM
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Good questions.
First, I live in MA. The Big Boys - Midway, Cabellas, Starline, etc will not ship brass to MA. Period. New, unprimed brass -- nope, can't ship it to MA. I have to go through friends or family in NH to get 45 AR brass (which I am working on).
Secondly, I bought a big box of varied, old brass, and in that batch was a bunch of 45 Colt brass. I don't have any use for it (right now) so I began looking at it in an experimental way. And, behold, I was right - it can be used. Simply cut it to length, size it, and load it.
Then there's the moon clips. I have many moon clips, half and full, and they're usually fine, but some are bent, some won't sit right when the cylinder if fouled, etc. User error, I know, but I just want a rimmed cartridge.

Another reason - my local gun store (in ME) had a bag of used 45 Colt brass (100) for $5.00. I should have grabbed it but I didn't. I'm going back soon to see if it's still there. But, they have no 45 AR brass, new or used. No one seems to have it around here.

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Old 04-26-2017, 10:44 AM
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Well, that explains it. (I had the same questions as Dave T., but like him, I did not want to give even the appearance of bashing the OP.) I can't believe the shipping restrictions to MA. My sympathy there.

When you think about it, this is actually an interesting experiment if someone has an abundance of .45 Colt brass or finds himself in an emergency-type situation. Short of that, I would just use .45 ACP brass with or without clips. Or find a way to get some .45 AR brass shipped in.

By the way, how do you cut down the .45 Colt brass? I have a tubing cutter (used for plumbing or automotive purposes). Do you use something like that?
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:57 AM
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Please keep us posted as to what happens with your foray into the BATFE. It should be educational. From other reports I have read, getting the BATFE to allow a SN restamping (and I understand that they will specify the new SN, not you) is far from being as simple as sending a request letter.

Case in point, the Bonnie Parker "Squat Gun" a Colt Detective Special. I don't remember the details, but the SN had been removed. The auction house (RR Auctions, Amherst NH) handling the sale went to BATFE to get it approved for sale (knowing it was going to bring a handsome price), but had a very difficult time getting BATFE cooperation. That auction was in 2012. I'd suggest you contact RR Auctions and get the story from them.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:59 AM
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Here's the answer to all of your firearms related access problems:
Load your belongings into a South bound moving van and don't stop until you pass the (imaginary) sign that says "Mason-Dixon".
P.S., Give Schumer the friendly goodby sign for me as you pass through New York.
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:08 AM
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"By the way, how do you cut down the .45 Colt brass? I have a tubing cutter (used for plumbing or automotive purposes). Do you use something like that"

There may be other ways, but one time I had several hundred .32 H&R Magnum cases I wanted to shorten to .32 S&W length. I made up a simple jig (actually a block of steel with a hole in it) and used a Dremel tool and cutoff disc. It worked very well, and is fast. I have made many .300 Savage cases out of .308 brass, and have used a tubing cutter to shorten the necks after resizing, and that works well also. But a .308 case is a lot easier to hold than a .32 Mag. You must use one of the miniature tubing cutters.

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Old 04-26-2017, 11:30 AM
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They may issue a new ser# w/an 'ATF' or 'BATF' prefix for application to the revolver. That's been the case in two instances I've seen.
One a Colt SAA first gen with matching numbers that was stolen, the numbers ground off except for the one on the trigger guard was not completely gone. Gun returned to original owner after court case. New 'ATF' ser# stamped into the side of the frame dispite knowing what the original was.
Not a nice clean job like the Bonnie Parker Colt either!

re: the 45Colt to 45AR brass thing... On some cartridge conversions of rimmed cases where the parent cases rim is thinner than the case being formed,,the parent case rim can (sometimes) be bent or rolled forward a bit to make up the extra few .000 thickness.
You need to make a die to swedge the case, base first, into it to fold the rim forward and there may not be enough rim on the 45Colt to do that. But it's a thought. It's pretty common when converting some brass like 45-70 to odd Euro thick rimmed metric calibers.
Personally I'd just use 45acp brass,,most any gunshop or Cabellas type place must have a bag of that around.
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:55 PM
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When younger we, myself and best high school buddy, had access to a 1917 and a case of army surplus 45 acp ammo but didn't have one half moon clip ! We just poked the empties out with a pencil, carried in back pocket....they all fired that way !
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:19 PM
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It's worth mentioning that some WW I Model 1917s are bored straight through leaving no case shoulder to head space on. The OP doesn't seem to have one like that. Anyone trying to duplicate this experiment should first verify the case shoulder in the cylinder.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:20 PM
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If it were me I'd sell or give away the 45 Colt cases and acquire new or once fired 45 Auto Rim cases.

I had bought new Starline 45 AR brass at $20/100 shipped and some new R-P 45AR brass cases at.$0.05 each.

The easy,simple and safe way is usually the best.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:41 PM
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I bought this little mini cut off saw at Harbor Freight. Kinda tricky at first but it works.
2 in. Mini Bench Top Cut-Off Saw

The cylinder in my revolver is stepped so it does accept the 45 ACP brass (and now the 45 Colt brass).

I'll probably buy 45 AR brass and have it shipped to NH. It's annoying to have to do that, but there's none around here. I just checked the store in ME that had the bag of used 45 Colt brass but it's long gone.
Or, I'll just stick with the 45 ACP brass and moonclips. Either way, it's a great shooter.

As far as moving from MA - you get to a point in life where it just doesn't make sense. I have my MA carry permit, NH permit, Maine and Vermont are permit free states, so I can carry anywhere around here. Plus the C&R allows me to buy guns that normally wouldn't be available to me (unless I can find them in MA).
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:43 PM
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Well, you're gonna do what you're gonna do... and can do.
But if I wanted to plink with a 1917 I would get some Rimz plastic clips that you can load and unload barehanded. They are not secure enough for competition, though. I have the tools for steel clips.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:55 PM
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45 Auto Rim brass from 45 Colt ?


Sounds like a cracker jack of an idea!




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Old 04-26-2017, 05:09 PM
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I thought about the EZ Moon Clips, "Made from space age hydrocarbon polymers" for range shooting. The steel moon clips work most of the time, but sometimes the metal is slightly bent and the rounds don't line up.
Yep, I think I'll give them a try. But back to the headspacing question; do the EZ Moon Clips compress under fire so that the cartridge again headspaces on the case mouth? Then again, it probably wouldn't matter - it's going to headspace properly somewhere.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:19 PM
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Isn't the serial number on the barrel and rear of the cylinder?
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:23 PM
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Yeah, it's on the barrel, cylinder, extractor, but it has to be on the frame. Apparently Colt does not put them on the butt near the lanyard loop.
If I do have to "surrender" the revolver, I get to keep everything but the frame.

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Old 04-26-2017, 06:19 PM
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Isn't this the wildcat ctg. that the SASS boys call .45 Cowboy ?

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Old 04-26-2017, 06:46 PM
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"You must use one of the miniature tubing cutters." I don't know. I have a couple. I bought them so long ago, I forgot the designations. The one is pretty small though. I have used it to cut down .45 Colt cases as a step toward making brass for .455 Webley cartridges. Originally I used the small one for copper pipe. I think I even used it to cut rubber hoses to length for an automotive application.

A note about headspacing on the mouth of the cartridge. I think Lee Jarrett has stated that ALL S&W M1917s have this feature. Only early Colt M1917s were bored straight through, therefore making use of clips (or Auto Rim cases) mandatory in them.
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Old 04-27-2017, 02:04 AM
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A note about headspacing on the mouth of the cartridge. I think Lee Jarrett has stated that ALL S&W M1917s have this feature. Only early Colt M1917s were bored straight through, therefore making use of clips (or Auto Rim cases) mandatory in them.
That's correct as Lee and others have stated.

So as S&WIowegan referenced; no, DM32's S&W isn't one.

But also couldn't be one.

Only the ~first 30,000 Colt 1917s had straight bored chambers or "charge holes" instead of shouldered "chambers".
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Old 04-27-2017, 02:13 AM
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Yeah, it's on the barrel, cylinder, extractor, but it has to be on the frame. Apparently Colt does not put them on the butt near the lanyard loop.
If I do have to "surrender" the revolver, I get to keep everything but the frame.
The serial # will also be found on the rear surface of the yoke by looking thru a chamber with the cyl open. But that still does not count because that's not the frame either.

S&W 1917s are #d differently from Colt 1917s.

The S&W serial # is on the butt of the frame, as opposed to Colt, and served a dual purpose; it was also S&W's government #. The serial number on the COLT US Army Model of 1917 is stamped on the frame, opposite the crane, and a different number on the butt of their 1917 is the government #.
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Old 04-27-2017, 02:18 AM
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Isn't this the wildcat ctg. that the SASS boys call .45 Cowboy ?

Larry
Larry, yes, the "Cowboy .45 Special". It's exactly what BM32 created. Unfortunately, he can't get it shipped to him in MA either. But fortunately he has the 45 Colt brass he cut down and more he can cut.
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Old 04-27-2017, 06:56 AM
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I should add that it's perfectly legal to ship brass or ammo to MA, but the bigger companies have been threatened by the MA Attorney General and they don't want the hassle. Many sellers won't ship a C&R gun to MA even though it's legal. The MA Dept of Safety told me that MA doesn't recognize a C&R license but GOAL (Gun Owners Action League) of MA AND the BATF both told me that the C&R is valid. I still have to register a handgun bought on the C&R license as a regular gun in MA. The store in ME where I buy a lot of stuff would not sell me an 1850s pinfire revolver because it took a cartridge and I'm from MA. But the C&R changes things.
Most sellers on GB will ship brass to me, and that is an option.
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:15 AM
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In that case, these Suppliers may ship to your:

COWBOY 45 Special...It's Heerrree! - SASS Wire - SASS Wire Forum

AMERICAN COWBOY AMMO
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:32 AM
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Thanks for those links. The problem is that I'm very fussy about reloaded ammo for my old guns. I bought some reloaded ammo online for my Winchester Self Loader .351, and when I pulled a few bullets and measured the powder, I found a variation from 17 grs to 20 grs (unknown powder). Since then, I've reloaded my own so I know exactly what's in the cases.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:17 AM
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From the OP's posts I read that the original serial number remains on the frame at the yoke opening. While the serial number appears to have been removed from the bottom of the grip-frame, the fact that the frame still retains a factory-stamped serial number would seem to cover the owner without anything from BATFE.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:15 AM
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The numbers on the frame near the yoke are, from what I understand, assembly numbers. Apparently the BATF can match serial numbers and assembly numbers. The fact that the actual serial number is in a few locations (bottom of the barrel, on the cylinder face, on the back side of the ejector, and penciled on the inside of the wooden grip) should help. The Boston agent basically said that they're more concerned with modern firearms that have had serial numbers removed than the vintage firearms. I sent the letter to the BATF tech office in West Virginia in November, and I'm still waiting.
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Old 04-27-2017, 12:56 PM
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Wow, November.

By the way, just the 45 Special brass is also available.
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Old 04-28-2017, 06:08 PM
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Or, the OP could just use .45ACP and use his Mk 1 pencil to poke the cases out. Seems like a easier solution.
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Old 04-28-2017, 08:50 PM
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Once the 45 Colt brass is cut to the right length or purchased, there's no mickey mouse poking out brass needed.
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:22 PM
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"One a Colt SAA first gen with matching numbers that was stolen, the numbers ground off except for the one on the trigger guard was not completely gone. Gun returned to original owner after court case. New 'ATF' ser# stamped into the side of the frame dispite knowing what the original was. "

In a situation like that, BATFE might be co-operative in issuing a new SN, because there is a valid and verifiable explanation as to why the SN was removed. But the OP probably has no idea as to why the SN is missing, therefore BATFE is unlikely to be co-operative. That's what I have understood - First, you MUST present a verifiable reason as to why the gun is in violation of the serial numbering provisions of GCA-68. If you don't, tough luck.

"Apparently the BATF can match serial numbers and assembly numbers." I gotta call a big BS on that.
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:07 PM
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I shot the revolver yesterday using moonclips with no issues. I fired single 45 ACP rounds without moonclips and pushed the empties out with a dowel with no issues. I was just curious about converting the 45 Colt brass.
As far as the serial number issue - truthfully, I do not expect it to turn out well, but by reporting it I covered myself as far as the missing number. I did not buy the gun thinking that I could somehow, magically, make the law go away. Truth is, I did not research the situation before I bought it and realized I had made a mistake after I bought it.
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Old 04-30-2017, 07:49 PM
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The numbers on the frame near the yoke are, from what I understand, assembly numbers. Apparently the BATF can match serial numbers and assembly numbers. The fact that the actual serial number is in a few locations (bottom of the barrel, on the cylinder face, on the back side of the ejector, and penciled on the inside of the wooden grip) should help. The Boston agent basically said that they're more concerned with modern firearms that have had serial numbers removed than the vintage firearms. I sent the letter to the BATF tech office in West Virginia in November, and I'm still waiting.
Did you send your letter registered mail?
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:54 AM
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I spoke with the local ATF agent today and he said they're pretty busy down there. He said the wait isn't that unusual. I can send a follow up letter or wait. They don't respond to emails or phone calls at that branch.
Live and learn.

I just tried to reach the West Virginia Tech branch, but, like I said, they don't take phone calls or email. But the woman at the call center said they're backlogged at least a year.

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Old 07-04-2018, 11:00 AM
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And, after one topic posted, 14 post the last above at 5-1-17], he

fell off the face of the earth nevah to be heard from again.

What's the case, not rim, thickness difference betwixt the 45 Colt & 45 AR?

Should the AR be thicker due to shorter case length?

I understand the Schofield is thinner, yet naturally enough I suppose as the charge was less.
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Old 07-04-2018, 11:19 AM
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And, after one topic posted

fell off the face of the earth nevah to be heard from again.
"There are 8 million stories in the Naked City. This has NOT been one of them." (Apologies to '50s TV)

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Old 07-04-2018, 11:34 AM
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Now that 18 months have passed since the question was submitted to BATFE, I'm wondering whether they have gotten around to responding, and if yes, what did they say? I'm sure this wasn't the first time the question has come up and further would guess they have a standard response prepared. It's too late now, but if it had been me, I think I would have re-stamped the SN without even asking and just said it had apparently gotten weak and hard to see in polishing and I had just "reestablished it." If anybody noticed it at all, which is pretty unlikely, that should suffice. This is not legal advice, but is based what I've seen done. It's probably some sort of technical violation, but I would plead "good faith" and unless they were trying to get me on anything they could drag up, I doubt they'd pursue it.

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