I picked up what I had purchased as a "shooter grade" 2nd Model Hand Ejector today at my friendly FFL. In all honesty I paid what I thought was a good price for a quality Smith and Wesson product from a year where I admire their build quality and precision attention to detail. The guys in the store were very happy for me and one guy was downright beside himself, having done some numbers checking. I have taken some pictures and hope I can help someone else in their efforts to gain more information on these beautiful old revolvers.

I didn't want to throw too many pictures in one thread as I haven't felt a need before. This looks like it has been refinished and there are a number of stampings on the grip frame, I will include some of them.
It has SMITH AND WESSON on the left side with the small emblem as well, 44 S&W Special on the right as well as MADE IN USA.

Where's the rest of it?

I forgot...

I'm guessing at late '26 with a couple trips back to the Mothership in '67, finally have one worth lettering. Other little details that might be worth mentioning, it has a white outline rear blade, front side has had the pin buffed down but is visible, no serrations on the grip strap, barrel length is 6.5"

Excellent snag! Hard to tell if it's been refinished...the base of the grip frame looks polished like a reblue? Otherwise the two stampings from 1967 may just be the target sight conversion, front and rear sights and would explain for the "s"(Diamond) mark or service department under the barrel flat...and grip. I don't see a "R-B" or "B" (inside diamond) to suggest a refinish.

Either way, another cool factory conversion!

That's really odd, but neat anyway. Without a letter prefix, SN 27668 would date it as an N-frame, ca. 1927. It's had much later target sights (front and rear) installed, and also very probably a new barrel. It looks like the post-WWII K-38 Mexican Model, which I have always coveted, except yours is in .44.

I. Love. It.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I'm still excited...it did seem a little too good to be true to score an original 2nd Model .44 Target model, which was why I was questioning the numbers on the grip frame. The seller didn't exactly get short with me but just basically told me it was all in good order. I'll send off for a letter on this one.

S&W 2nd HE 5” .44 Special blue, # 26378, shipped in May 1926. S&W 3rd HE 5” .44 Special nickel, # 28363, shipped January 27, 1927.

The first 3rd Model .44 Special was # 28358. # 28363 was in the first shipment of 3rd models sent to Wolf & Klar in Ft Worth, Texas. This first shipment was for 75 5" nickel revolvers.

Second and third model .44s were sold during the same time period up until 1940.

Don't shoot that one in a stiff crosswind. That front sight will catch the breeze like a sail.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I have a 2nd Model .44 HE Target very close to yours, serial# 27473, shipped December 5, 1927.

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John

Make sure that when you send for the letter that you include the photos above showing the sights and all of the frame markings. In order to get a complete write up of any gun it is important to include any unusual information that you have available.

There may also be more information available through the S&W Historical Foundation as to the work done on the gun if the records from that era have been digitized.

Very neat looking gun.

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James Redfield
LM #497

If I had to guess, I would say that the gun originally had fixed sights, and was converted to target (adjustable) sights on one of its two returns to the factory. The target stocks may have been added at that time - for sure they were not original to the gun.

There may have been another return to the factory, that is not date-stamped on the frame. At that time, the barrel may have been replaced, but this is hard to know.

Mike Priwer

When did S&W switch over from its Carbonia blue to the hot salts? That finish looks too black to me for a pre-war gun. And the finish on a replaced barrel wouldn't match a pre-war finish in '67. I'd say its pretty certain it was refinished on one of its trips back to the mothership.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

That's one fine 2nd Model shooter.

The MADE IN U.S.A. stamp on the frame makes it a post 1922 production and the mushroom extractor knob makes it pre 1930 which is supported by the s/n.

The diamonds indicate the frame and barrel were reworked (for the new sights obviously) and the S means it was done in the service dept. as are all returned guns needing work.

Highly unlikely barrel was replaced; it still has the two notches plus pre 1930 mushroom extractor knob, and patent dates. Factory protocol on pre war barrels, which had the front sight and base forged integral with the barrel in one piece, was to mill off the integral half moon fixed sight blade, mill a mortise in the base, and pin in a target blade.

The S stamp was to notify the bluing dept that the gun's parts were to be returned back to the service dept, not to general production with the hundreds of other parts blued in the same batch.
Long ago it was an O for Outside Service Dept when it wasn't part of the plant.

No telling why it was sent back twice; perhaps refinish the first time and sights the 2nd time (and another refinish).

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I like it. Trips the the factory and the modifications just add to the interest for me.

I watched this gun on gun broker for several months with great anticipation that some fellow forum member would purchase it. I concur with Mr. Priwer, The gun was likely a fixed sight model that was converted during one of its trips back to the factory. It would be worthwhile to check with not only Roy Jinks for a factory letter, but also the Smith & Wesson historical foundation about any correspondence pertaining to the repairs.

Personally I think grips of the period would be more befitting the gun, maybe some Sandersons?

I took it to the range today and was very pleased with its operation. One of my buddies said "You could stick a candle on that front sight." It actually was regulated to shoot 6:00 and if I wasn't such a terrible shot I would post the target. I was shooting some 200gr. Ranier plated bullets that I built up for my 3" 24-3. Out of the blue my S&W mechanic showed up and was very interested in it, he mentioned that it was real tight and didn't need any refinement...except, he's always got a hook in there...except there is a noticeable drag and click when using it double action. He asked me if I intended to do any double action shooting with it and I told him no, he then said nothing to worry about, single action is not effected. I agree that some nice diamond checkered gold medallion stocks would look great, they just don't fit me for shooting, I do have a beautiful set of cocobolo diamond center coke profile stocks that John Culinga made for my pre-25...I'll see how they look on it. I will be shooting this one, thats what I bought it for. The seller wasn't crazy about releasing information because I questioned him a couple of times and let the thing go for a couple auction cycles, loosing out on a couple of Dave's nice pieces, finally decided to pull the trigger and am not disappointed in the least with what knowledge I already have received. I thank you guys for all the incite, this is a truly great forum.

Invariably these old guns need the actions flooded with a spray gun cleaner, allowed to drain, and a more modern lubricant/preservative applied. No need to remove sideplate, just the stocks.

Then listen again for the drag and click.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I think these custom Culina Cocobolo stocks look much better, although not period correct.

NOW, that is "LOOKIN' GOOD!" Bob

I clearly am in need of some education.

To that end, it's noted "----the base of the grip frame looks polished like a reblue?" What does "polished like a reblue" look like? I ask because it's my understanding guns refinished by the factory were polished with the same equipment (formed leather wheels) and compound used in polishing new guns. Was that not so?

"Otherwise the two stampings from 1967 may just be the target sight conversion, front and rear sights and would explain for the "s" (Diamond) mark or service department under the barrel flat...and grip. I don't see a "R-B" or "B" (inside diamond) to suggest a refinish." I know the factory service history for exactly one gun, so the statistical validity of that knowledge, and the (apparent) meaning of the service marks thereon is perhaps lacking. The gun was returned to the factory in April, 1960. The attendant instructions were to refinish (from matte to bright blue) and to go through the gun and make it as perfect as possible. I know these things because this is my gun----and has always been my gun.

It came back finished in bright blue completely indistinguishable from an original finish. It came back with the timing of the cylinder stop altered such that there is no turn ring-----today---after A BUNCH of use. (And it took me awhile to recognize/deduce the cylinder stop timing had been altered from the norm---as long as it took to notice there was no turn ring.) There was/is no sign of any other alterations. The service marks on the gun are 460 on the left side of the grip frame, an s<> on the left side of the grip frame, an s<> on the barrel flat, and an s<> on the cylinder (under the ejector). I've heard tell these s<> marks mean a part was replaced/otherwise repaired/modified. Doesn't seem likely in this case.

I'd ask what the meaning of these marks (other than 460) are if I didn't know what was done to the gun. I'd ask specifically why there's a service mark on the frame, barrel flat, and the cylinder but I believe nobody knows----aside from the folks who put it there. I'd hazard a guess the mark was applied to the frame, barrel flat and cylinder because those pieces were separated in the course of the (batch) refinishing process---and the service folks wanted it back afterwards. I'd hazard that guess if the sideplate and the yoke were also marked, but they're not. Of course, if I thought the frame, yoke, and sideplate were blued as an assembly, then I'd guess; but I don't believe that was the case. I certainly don't know it wasn't the case, but it doesn't seem likely----sideplate(?), certainly possible; yoke(?), less so.

I had another gun that seemed to have been back to the factory----an as new nickel Registered Magnum. It had stars on it---one on the side of the grip frame, one on the cylinder, one on the yoke, one on the barrel, and one on the sideplate. That's every place it has a place, right? It had a five digit number on the side of the grip frame too---could have been a date---could have been one of two different dates----but all the date stamps are 3 or 4 digits------right? Hmmmmmmm? Oh, and ALL the innards were brand new. It showed absolutely no sign of having been refinished/rebuilt. Of course, it had been shipped to a police department, so I reckoned it for damn sure had been refinished/rebuilt---and it went away. I still wonder every now and again, was it really completely redone?

It's too bad none of us were there when all this marking was being done. It's too bad nobody who was there wrote about all this marking business, so we could share in that knowledge rather than guessing.

Ralph Tremaine

I sent off for a letter yesterday, I included all of the pictures that contained any special factory markings, including the right side of the grip frame that had peculiar marks around the grip pin. I am intrigued by this piece so much so that I paid what I considered a premium price for a possibly refinished 2nd Model .44 HE, not knowing if it had been done by the factory with unreliable information from the seller, conflicting numbers and all...toss the dice. I will be glad to relay the letter in the hopes that any of the information will prove useful to anyone else.

Let me suggest you did not pay a premium price for a possibly refinished gun. You paid for a completely reconfigured gun---redone from what it was to what the owner wanted it to be. Were I that owner, doing what that owner did, you can be certain it would have been refinished.

We, as lunatic fringe collectors, moan and wail about refinished guns---because they're not original anymore. Fair enough. This gun's owner clearly couldn't have cared less about originality. He clearly didn't want what this gun was. He just as clearly knew exactly what he did want---and he got it. And all things considered, he did a fine job of making it happen. Then here you come, and said, Damn---that's not too shabby!!

You were right!

Ralph Tremaine

Almost any statements about S&W's protocol, stampings, meaning of stampings are presumed to be trends, and should not be taken as rules. The main reason is that things changed over time. Hand Ejectors have been around for ~120 years.

So one must always consider the meanings of stamps, the use of, or the lack of stampings in the context of the period that the rework/refinish was performed. And there are exceptions to every trend.

Some common examples:

The star stamp is usually not used before ~1920 or after the late 1950s-early 1960's.

Dates of rework are seldom more than month and year up to ~ the 1950s. More currently 5 and 6 digit dates are more common, until no dates were use after ~ the 1970s.

Sometimes letters in a rectangle indicate refinishes early on and just diamonds are used to indicate refinishing later on and can overlap.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Ralph,
You're not in need of an education... I only gave an opinion of what I thought happened based on my experiences, readings, and vague recollection of various smith and wessons. As Hondo44 said there are different stampings in different periods and this is approx a 1927 gun that was worked on 40 yrs later. Ralph, I know you have years of knowledge and know way more than I do about the function and mechanics of revolvers than I do...and the fact that you own a gun that you sent back for work yourself is invaluable.
I made my above statements about the date stampings on the left side of frame being most likely for the rear and front sight modifications. Because on first observation, those were the non-original details/parts. In addition, I thought the "s" diamond mark was generally used for part changes/mods by the service department as opposed to a refinish. I recall seeing a few factory target sight conversions and they all had 2 or 3 date stamps on the frame and they are a couple of months apart. My uneducated guess is they would add the rear sight first, then modify the front sight to the customers demands? With tapered barrels many older fixed sight .44s and .45s seem to have tall replacement front sights.

I didn't see clear indications of a refinish or bona fide refinish stamps on the gun... like an "R-B". The small "B" on the right grip frame indicates it was originally blue. It looks like there is some wear to the bluing and is too hard to see signs of a reblue in the photos. The only photo that made me question was the picture of the bottom of the grip frame... it just looked like it had been buffed/polished and the serial number didn't look as consistent with what I'm used to seeing.

All in all this is a nice ole .44 that was customized for an owner by the factory to have Target sights. If the finish is original, then I personally wouldn't discount the target sights being added to the gun in terms of value. I think you did good Kinman... you bought a gun that spoke to you and any pre-war N-frame is worth saving. enjoy! We can only keep learning.

Mine lettered to 1923, poor finish but shoots better then most of my other .44's.

how do i print screencertificity.com

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Let me suggest pulling the rear sight to determine the presence of a refinish on your gun. If it's "white" underneath the sight, they most certainly did not refinish (at that time). On the other hand, I have a single shot barrel assembly modified at the factory (including time under attack by a milling machine). The trauma to the finish was touched up with cold blue----one application from the looks of it (considerably lighter color than the rest), so they were simply applying protection. The affected area is not visible on an assembled gun, so no harm, no foul. As an aside, your new sight channel is also not visible on the assembled gun.

I suspect your gun has been refinished only because a new finish goes hand in hand with the modifications involved in making a "new" gun----which is to say that's what I would have done. It would seem incomplete without a new finish.

Ralph Tremaine

My thanks to everyone and the combined knowledge is considerable. I have the advantage of having the revolver in hand and from what I see I would agree with anyone that it has been refinished, the markings across the top of the barrel are not nearly as crisp as they would be if untouched, that is fairly obvious. Another fairly obvious area is on the small monogram on the left side, it is quite dim on this piece. I have a Brazilian 1917 model that although seriously cleaned up in all areas that were in bad shape has retained a very sharp small left side monogram, it is the most legible marking on the piece. The MADE IN USA is also quite buffed out, leading edges of the cylinder are in good shape and most sharp edges have been retained which tells me that it was done by someone that truly knew the craft instead of Bubba. I will post the results of the letter when it becomes available and thanks again for all your consideration.

This is the pertinent information regarding this revolver from the letter:

And I have 2nd Model Target serial number 27433.
6 1/2 in, Blue, 44 Special.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

Originality or collector value be damned, I would be proud to call that mine!

I am very happy with it, it shoots ever bit as good as it looks and is very comfortable...just right, were gonna get along jest fine...
One odd thing though, considering that it went back to the factory for adjustable sights when they drilled the hole down through the frame they went right into the barrel and didn't plug the hole, the hole goes clean through the barrel at the forcing cone. I noticed it after firing that there was an odd diagonal line on each cylinder, I took a good look and then noticed the small hole in the forcing cone. My friendly gunsmith/machinist couldn't figure that one out as it is not like the factory to do shoddy work. He told me he could easily fix it by simply removing the pin and turning the barrel 90degrees, check to see if its already tapped and if not tap and install a plug screw, polish where needed return etc. It left him scratching his head...He assured me he would get it right and not scratch up the finish.

Whoops!!

What a great story!! And a great gun. It does seem odd that the factory would have pulled a boo boo like drilling through the barrel, and not fixing it. I think I would have to have your buddy, who sounds like he knows what he is doing, fix that hole. Maybe I'm just OCD, but that would bother me.

Other than that, though, what a unique and fabulous piece of S&W lore and a product of two differing eras, and the desires of a former owner.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Kinman,

Unbelievable over drilled hole, but not hard to fix.

It struck me as unusual that Roy provided information about the rework in 1967. He has to go the extra mile to research that to include in the letter. I've only seen that in one other letter, but obviously not likely to be the only two occasions.

However that indicates to me, that the documents may also be available to you, even though records for 1967 are not digitized yet. So I would make the request of the SWHF for the documents/information for both dates stamped on the grip frame.

If it were my gun I would not remove and re-install barrel pin or turn the barrel! That just adds tediousness and cost to a relatively simple solution.

I would remove the front screw and rear sight. Then observe the hole in forcing cone for threads with magnification. If not already threaded, thread the hole thru the top strap hole. Obtain another front screw, cut the head off, slot it like a plug screw and run it down thru the top strap on into the barrel flush to the outside barrel surface, and red Locktite it in place. Polish the end flush in the forcing cone. Re-install the rear sight and screw.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim, That was basically what he did. I picked it up hours ago in excellent condition at last. He did a beautiful job of cleaning up the forcing cone and left nothing hanging between the barrel and upper receiver. I am very satisfied with this guy, he is meticulous, careful and rare to find today, thankfully I believe I am older than he is and he has no sign of retiring his home workshop. In fact he was having the air conditioning worked on while I was there.

Kinman

Bravo, glad to hear that!

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Jim
S&WCA #819