Been shooting quite a few times with this gun and I can never hit my target, oddly enough it shoots high and to the left by several inches. All my other revolvers hit their mark or very close to it. I took it to my lgs and he said the barrel grooves are too worn down.
I really like this gun and would like to keep it. I want it to be a shooter though. Thought I would ask here to see if there is anything I can do aside from a barrel replacement. And if barrel replacement is the only option, what would be the cost?

(I will post pictures of the barrel inside as soon as I can get a clear picture)

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Are you using heavier or slower rounds than standard 158 gr lead at factory velocity (800-850 fps)? Have you had other experienced shooters try it?

It appears to be an early 1920 decade M & P, and as I recall these did not have very deep rifling grooves. I doubt one used .38 M & P in several thousand have had enough rounds down the barrel to wear it out, and if your groups are consistent (if not printing to the sights) to me that is more evidence the barrel is not shot out.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I was wondering why the shots all went in the same area, if the grooves were worn down one would think lead would be flying all different directions.
I was shooting 132 gr, though they were accurate with my heavy barreled model 10-8.

Try Plain Old 38s; 158 lead roundnoses.

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That would be great if it was just the ammo choice and nothing wrong with the gun. Thank you for helping me out, I knew I could count on this forum.
I have been doing all my research on the revolvers themselves and not so much about ammo, I will definitely look closer from now on.

The sights on that gun were regulated for a 158 gr. round nose, which was 'the' standard .38 Special load in the time that revolver was built.

I'm another who would be very surprised if the rifling was worn enough to cause any accuracy issues with that gun. The overall condition looks too good to me.... That said, a good thorough cleaning never hurts.

Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

Let someone else shoot it.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

Could a heavily leaded bore be obstructing the rifling? Might be polished smooth making it appear to be shallow grooves. Just a thought

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

Maybe some hollow-base wadcutters?


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I clean my guns every time I use them. This gun does function well, better than most other 100+ year old revolvers. lol

I had a few others shoot it to make sure it wasn't just me. They had the same results I did, though they were also using the same 132 gr bullets.

I've seen police armorers put Model 10s that consistently shot to one side or the other in a padded vice and "tweak" them.

Makes me cringe every time I read a post like this.



OP: I would definitely try some 158gr ammo next to see if it is any different. Hopefully it is just a ammo thing.

I agree with others a Smith as nice as yours I doubt seriously has a wore out bore. Try some 158 wadcutters or semi-wadcutters and see what happens, leaded groves could be the issue, but something tells me that won't be the case.

Check the muzzle crown

About a year ago I purchased a 66-2 6" at a gun show. Took it to the range and it shot 10" left concistantly at 20 yards. Put a range rod down the bore and found that the barrel was bent. The rod stopped about 1.5" from the forcing cone. Re-barreled with a good used 6" barrel and shoots dead on.

Good comments here. Just a couple more. Your revolver has hardly anything in common with a Pre-Model 10, which is is not. You are shooting a 38 Military & Police, 4th Change revolver. Ship date would most likely be 1920 or 1921, about 35 years before the Pre-Model 10 revolver was so-named.

As for worn bore, are you getting keyholes? If not, you have plenty of rifling left to get bullet spin and decent accuracy. I might have missed it, but are you getting any type of groupings? Lastly, what range are you shooting? I get great results with 158 grain SWC at 25 yards, from a rest, with my 4", 1923 38 M&P from a rest. This revolver can not and will not shoot groups like I get with one of my K38 Masterpiece revolver, but still not bad. As suggested above, I would also try hollow base wadcutters.

Lastly, I would recommend shooting from a rest in order to eliminate as many variables as possible. Good luck with your experimentation and I am sure you will find these guns are made to shoot where you aim them.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Also the lead bullets should be of a larger diameter and thus help fill out the barrel. These revolvers were made and the sights regulated for standard velocity ( not +P) 158 grain lead round nose ammo the most common of that time period.
If 158 grain lead RN are not available try semi-wadcutter or try the 148 grain hollow base full wadcutter target ammo. The 148 HBWC ammo usually shoots close to point of aim and the hollow base allows the bullet to expand and grip the rifling of even worn bores.
Finding the right ammo will get you on target....every fixed sighted revolver has it's preferred ammo.
And make sure the barrel is well cleaned, this is important !
Gary

"JohnRippert
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNZ71 View Post
I've seen police armorers put Model 10s that consistently shot to one side or the other in a padded vice and "tweak" them.

Makes me cringe every time I read a post like this."


I was taught to adjust point of aim with a one by six inch lead rod. The instructor further gave two instructions: 1) not to perform this delicate operation in the presence of the gun's owner and 2) keep at least one foot on the floor when applying the tool. Incidentally, this training was at a Smith & Wesson factory armorer's school.
Your mention of 132 grain ammo suggests that this is jacketed. Usually, it is recommended to stay with lead bullets for barrels of this vintage.

Bob

Here are the best pictures I could manage, it is near impossible to get my phone camera to focus.





Hoping to take it shooting today.

...that bore sure looks good from here...especially considering it's approaching 100 years old...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

Also I clean all my guns after shooting them and I have not felt any bumps, dips, or anything like that.

If I make it to 97, the insides of my tubes won't look that nice

Just to add, ammo with a different bullet weight and velocity may change your vertical point of impact, but if it still consistently shoots left it may require some type of physical modification like reshaping the front sight.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

It didn't even hit the target farther than 10 yards, at that distance I got it to shoot a group about a foot wide once I aimed it to the left. No keyholes either.

I am willing to bet a change of ammo weight will make a big difference.
That bore has nothing worn out about it.
Just about any gun shooting ammo weight different than what it was made for will most often not shoot POA.
Bag rest the gun at 10 yards and see how accurate it is then. Try that at 20 yards. Try that with two different weight rounds also. I bet you see a big difference in POA being on target.

Casting outfits can make bullets that are slightly oversized. A heavy soft bullet might be the ticket. Of you will have to reload them or get somebody to do it for you.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

That bore looks just fine to me. Better than both of mine, similar vintage and mine shoot reasonably well, pits and all. One in 38spl and one in 32-20. The crown may be the issue as mentioned. I would check that carefully, and use the prescribed ammunition. 158 grain lead or 148 grain wadcutters. Bet you see a big difference.
Aloha

IIRC, barrels have lands and grooves. I may be missing something here but would it not be that the lands are worn down and not the grooves????? Just sayin.

Are you shooting from a bench off of a rest? Normally if a barrel is so badly worn out that it won't hit to point of aim then the shots would be all over the target and not in one quadrant.

According to the experts, shooting high and to the left is caused by improper trigger release. Make sure that you are using the pad of the finger and not the joint and do not release the finger until well after the bullet has left the gun. In other words, slow down the process. Squeeze off all of the rounds slowly from a rest using two hands and see what that does.

The other factor may be sighting. Have you determined which of your eyes is dominant? If you are closing one eye and it is your dominant eye then this will throw off your point of impact.

Just some thoughts from someone that has been doing this for a while.

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James Redfield
LM #497

I was shooting standing up and holding it with both hands (was at a friend's property). I will watch my trigger finger more closely to see if I can rule that out.
As for dominant eye, I am left handed but am mostly blind in my left eye so I hold right and pull the trigger with my left.

If you say it is hitting high now then changing to a heavier bullet should make it worse! First try a hollow base wadcutter to see if it groups better. But the gun needs to be locked down or held as firmly as possible. If it truly is still shooting high then you can try a lighter bullet. If it is still high the only option would be to add to the top of the sight to bring it down, sounds crazy but some people do it. Or better yet hold a 6 o'clock hold on the target. If it is firing left and it is proven to be correct by locking it in a sturdy rest, then your option is turning the barrel.

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Tom
NRA Pistol Inst

Help me out Tom, as I am not understanding what factors would make the problem worse? If a heavier bullet is loaded to the same velocities, wouldn't it fall more than a lighter one?? I guess if you used the same amount of powder, you could get higher velocities with a heavier bullet, offsetting the effects of gravity and mass??

I totally agree with benching the revolver, something the OP has not commented on from my previous post. It is amazing how much one can affect bullet groupings by slight changes in how the revolver is gripped and shot. You can find pistol correction charts all over the web, but some discount their value. The charts have helped me in the past and are worth a look at least.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Have a close look at the frame, below the forcing cone. I'm not sure what I'm seeing in this photo, but I think it warrants inspection. The rifling looks excellent.

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"I also cook."

Those marks are just superficial scratches from a previous owner. I just double checked to make sure.

Sorry, I did post earlier that I was standing and holding it with both hands (we were at a friends property and didn't bring any gear, just guns and ammo). Also when I noticed it was inaccurate I had a few people I was with shoot it and they had the same results, then after shooting this gun I shot my model 65-2, Brazilian m1917, and my 10-8 all hit their marks.

The bullet drop difference between a 140 gr bullet and a 158 at 25 yds is about 1/2" in favor of the lighter faster bullet.

BUT, the 158 gr recoils more and is slower, so, it will spend more time in the barrel, which is rising under heavier recoil and should therefore strike higher on target and probably more that the 1/2" due to ballistic drop. Depends on grip, hand strength etc as to amount of muzzle rise before bullet exits and is on its own. The longer the barrel the more effect of course.

What he said!! Most of the time the difference is not that great. But a longer barrel will show more of a difference. It doesn't make since if you think of it as a heavier bullet should drop more but it gives more recoil and in effect raises the barrel!

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Tom
NRA Pistol Inst

So I managed to take it to the range yesterday. The only 158gr LRN I could find was some Blazer ammo, not sure if the aluminum casing alters anything but it was indeed better. I wasn't hitting exactly where I was aiming but it was pretty close and stayed consistent.
Thank you so much everyone! I was worried I would have to sell it cheap or replace the original barrel.

Good news. Keep practicing.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

And learn the sight picture for the particular piece.
They are all kinda different, not the best, and add in over 40 eyes...
Aloha

It sounds like you're on the right path and making progress. Lots of experienced shooters here on the Forum.

The one last thing I would try is changing the grips and then shoot a round or two. Throw a set of target stocks on that old K-Frame and try shooting it again. I find it very hard to accurately shoot those pre-war K-Frames with those little bitty standard stocks. It is hard for me to get a consistent grip and if I'm shooting it in double action I find that my shots are sprayed all over the place. It makes sense that no consistent grip = no consistent groupings.

For folks with a little larger hands, those old stocks just do not work. This fact created a whole industry of custom stock makers that tried to make grips to fill up the hands.

Custom Roper Stocks:




Then finally S&W got into action and made the grip adapters



... magna stocks



... and eventually the target sized stocks...



Good luck,

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Maybe this wheel chart might help you in addition to the 158 gr.
LRN bullets. Good luck!

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