That's what my friend Doug used to call lower-end shooters in decent mechanical condition. I never see long action Smiths that meet this description for sale in the Trader, and almost never at gun shows. All I ever see around is high-grade collectables I'd be afraid to shoot.

So, let's discuss. What happened to all the "cosmetically challenged" 44 Specials, etc. that used to go begging for $200-300?

Anything old and N-frame got hot.

They got snapped up and resold for twice the price, then resold again for twice that amount.... We're the ones to blame. Those of us on this very forum who have been here for 10 years or more are guilty of extolling the virtues of the older shooter grade guns that had nothing wrong with them, save for maybe some good honest wear from good honest use.

Next question....

Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

Here is a cosmetically challenged Outdoorsman that I shoot regularly.

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I picked up this old K22 Outdoorsman a few weeks ago for $425. I'm quite fond of my shooter grade K22. So they are still out there, but you gotta be in the right place at the right time.

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Did somebody say cosmetically challenged? Here's my Triple Lock from 1911. It shoots wonderfully.

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For years, my philosophy has been, "If it was made after WWII it's a new gun". I have to admit I secretly enjoy shooting an old HE or top break while the shooter next to me is blasting away with his 16-round automatic.

Unfortunately, in today's market the older "shooters" are harder and harder to find in a safe condition.

Many youngsters are beginning to get wise to pre wars and 5 screws, and the enchantment of revolvers.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Picked up this .44 second model that's not too awful bad, built on a 1917 frame, a couple months ago for $375.



Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

This old "birth year" nickel M&P from 1947 is still mechanically excellent. I bought it a few years back for $410.00.

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John

This right here. After years of messing with plastic pistols I finally bought my first revolver at around 37. I'm 41 now and am starting to get a small collection. When my father asked me why I was into revolvers. My answer was when he was my age he was into pre-70 winchesters. Now the older pre lock Smiths and JM Marlins are going up. I might add I have a problem with JM Marlins lever actions also.

good old blue steel or nickel guns, even the ones with honest wear, just have it all in looks & function over the "plastic" or newer style steel ones (IMHO)

Can only agree with Plain Old Dave.....
In about 98% of the places I check - LGS's, pawn places, gun shows, it takes me very little time to get bored anymore. Basically, the magic is gone, replaced by mass production plastic and alloy. And, we now have a generation that accepts that as it's all they've ever known.

And in the rare instances I see something semi-interesting it's priced at some truly ridiculous levels.
Every now and then when planets correctly align, a deal may be had via GB and similar, but that is far from common.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

They went away just like .50 cent per gallon gas, 3 loaves of bread for a buck and a new truck for $10,000

You missed my point. The high end collector grade guns are still around.

Where are all the honest old guns, the 10-20% finish ones that the collectors all used to turn their noses up at?

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

They are $1000 now.


Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

I bought my first smith revolver a few years ago ( I'm 40 years old) I've shot it on two occasions. She's just in wonderful shape, and I felt guilty adding a turn line. I started buying very crusty shooters. I don't feel guilty shooting them nor messing with them. I'll leave the mint ones to the purist collectors. I want to use mine. I was the same way with old cars. I had a chevelle that was too nice to drive. My other old cars with dings and imperfect paint, didn't bother me to use them.
I know there are a lot of older guys here. There is a younger generation that likes revolvers. I passed on a beautiful 6" model 10 so a rookie could have his first smith and he's been bitten. My 11 year old is also developing a fondness. I think it's two camps. Those who want Shooters and those who want quality used (I'm both)

It hasn't been so very long ago that I was seeing people bemoan the total lack of interest in "real" guns like Registered Magnums, other old pre-War N-frames, long action K-frames, and the little I-frames... it seemed that we "old farts" were buying them up (mostly from each other) but that as we died off, the market was shrinking fast and our spouses and children would be stuck with a bunch of worthless old iron. It looks like maybe that trend is swinging back the other way if this thread's premises are accurate. This could be a "Good Thing." JMHO, YMMV!

Froggie

First that's a great find. Congratulations!

I'm a bit confused by your comment that it was built on a 1917 frame. Do you mean it's a 1917 that was re-barreled and had a new cylinder installed? Even if that's the case it's a great buy at $375. I consider any N-frame S&W for under $500 a good deal in these days of ever escalating prices.

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

Dave,
It's a 5" .44 Second Model that was built on a left-over 1917 frame. Has the "Eagle head" inspector mark on the frame, but was built fresh as a .44

Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

After WW I, S&W bought back a number of 1917 frames from the Federal Government. They used these frames to build 2nd Model HEs in .44 Special.

These frames will have lanyard loops and most will have gov't proof marks, such as an eagle's head and a number, like S2.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Far as I am concerned there are too many "old Farts" hoarding all these wonderful revolvers, I can't seem to find any, (for an affordable price).

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

And quotes like this are the reason I am drawn to this forum. I assumed it was an aftermarket also. I feel like a lot of the members on this sight have probably forgotten more about S&W revolvers then I will ever know. Thanks for clarifying that Muley Gil.

Dave, and others

My contribution here is about 1899 s/n 6215, that I won on gunbroker about 3 weeks ago.
Its more-than cosmetically challenged, but it's honest wear, and I think its still a shooter.
Closing price was $205.

To discuss your question, several things happen to old guns. First, there is a concept of survival rate, and we don't know what that number is. For sure, not all guns that are made, survive. Secondly, when an old shooter does show up, they often need work, and sometimes get refinished, thus losing their 'cosmetically-challenged' status. Third, we have to recognize that we (on this and other forums) are not the only S&W collectors in the land. There may be many many more that we do not know, and never hear from, and have no idea about the guns they own. Finally, we don't know what the turnover rate is, for own-able guns. Some people re-sell them periodically; others pass them on to future generations. We don't know the mix of these situations.

Here is a very cosmetically, and mechanically, challenged early K-frame.



In this next picture, the small hole in the cylinder stop slot goes clear through the cylinder wall, into the chamber.





In this next picture, the ejector rod nob is not merely missing - it was sawed off.



On the other hand, everything about this gun, except for the front sight blade, is numbered to the frame. Here is the rear sight leaf, and rear sight blade.



I wrote another thread about the front sight blade on this gun. Its made from a 1910-ish Barber silver quarter. Here is a picture of one side of the blade.



This gun has/had several problems, in addition to what one sees in the pictures. The cylinder has way too much play in every direction. I've replaced the whole assesmbly with one from a 1899 that I scrapped many years ago. The thumb-piece cylinder release screw was frozen. I drilled it out and replaced the bolt with one of the extra's I have. I was able to save, and reuse, the original thumb-piece. The screw holding the rear sight leaf was frozen. I milled off the top, so that I could remove and straighten the rear sight leaf; someone had bent it up. The last piece of work is to have the remaining piece of that screw drilled out, and rethreaded. The black hard-rubber grips, numbered to the gun, are worn smooth.

The bore is mildly pitted, but the replaced cylinder assembly has no play in it. Its ready now for some test firing. Then I can decide if it needs another barrel, and then get the rear sight leaf screw taken care.

Why did I do this ? Because 1899 .38 target revolvers are beyond scarce. When they do show up, they need to be owned !

Regards, Mike Priwer

So Mike, are you aging the ejector rod knob for that one? Bury one of those new made ones of yours in the ground for the summer and it will fit that 1899 perfectly!

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Gary
SWCA 2515

This is a great idea for a thread. Actually, I wanted to start one in a somewhat similar vein, about how almost every cosmetically challenged S&W I own or have handled is nevertheless still in excellent mechanical condition. These revolvers are true mechanical miracles.

When I watch the "Antiques Roadshow" and see their experts oooh and ahhh over some old busted clock, I wonder why they never give the same respect to old firearms. Surely PBS doesn't have an agenda?

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You're shy a few manners.

Bought my first S&W at 21, a 22/32 HFT. It took another 10 years to discover 5 screw N Frames. Now I rely on the cosmetically challenged and refinished to get the good ones at a price I can afford.

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Dave

Generally, all those guns your refer to, as still there: somewhere. They haven't been melted down, or buried, or lost in natural disasters. They are still around.

All the guns that exist are owned, by someone. The ones offered for sale in gun shops are presumably owned by the gun shop, unless there on consignment. The ones we see on auction sites are (mostly) owned by collectors that have decided to sell them. All the rest of the guns belong to people who are not selling them.

The guns you are referring to were for sale at one point, but they are not for sale now. Every so often, like the 1899 I wrote about earlier in this thread, the owners of one or more of these guns changes his mind, and offers them for sale.

Regards, Mike

1899 with maybe 20-30%. I feel very fortunate to have found it just last year.

Won't be back on the market though, till I die.


Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

Bruce

You made my day !!! That is exactly what I was describing.

By the way, did you report that gun as part of my serial-number and caliber roll marking study ?
If not, it looks like it has the one-line caliber roll marking; what is the serial number ?

Regards, Mike

VBK76, like the neat piece of wood with the side plate outline for the screws as they are taken off the revolver. And as far as $200 to $300 handguns down here when the price gets that low they are only good for scrap. Rust buckets inside and out. People down here in a lot of cases do not clean their firearms as often as they should. Couple of examples, WW1 Colt 45 kept under the drivers seat as a truck gun, K 38 that got a park job only to find rust coming out underneath the park. Baton Rough Police department model 10's. cylinders ratteled when you picked them up to look at them, since they were nickle plated had great big sections of rust coming up from the plating and the bores looked like a trip in a coal mine. 1100 shotgun was jammed when I got it, one of my wifes relatives used it for hunting. Disassembled it and ready to throw the whole thing in the trash. Insides were full of small pieces of gravel how the heck do you get gravel inside a 1100 shotgun. Ok start taking this puppy apart. action bars all chewed up by the gravel, inside of the receiver all chewed up by the gravel. His family don't have much money as I was seriously tempted to call and find out what he wanted me to do with this piece of junk. Bolt had a crack on the face of the bolt, buffer also had cracked. Fine cut file and took all the sharp edges, sandpaper and then some tool makers hand stones. The repeat the same for the inside of the receiver. Flushed out all the **** out of the trigger group. Blew out the solvent with the air compressor then lite lube. replaced the old bolt as a unit. Cleaned the receiver and test fired. No one was more suprised than me when the three 3 shells that were loaded actually fired, then 3 more and then they fired. And a new recoil spring. Only cost to me was for some parts and that is what I charged him for, and no hours for labor which should have been at least $200 or more. Last I heard one of his sons is using it now. Asked him where he kept the gun and where the gravel came from. Seems he had the shotgun in the bed of the truck and had a load of gravel for the driveway. And now you know how the gravel got inside the receiver. And as for the 2-300 price if they look like they might shoot the price goes up, Frank

Mike,
It is #14797. I did submit it to your list, and it has the one line caliber marking.
All numbers match, including sights and stocks.

Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

[QUOTE=mikepriwer;139602277]Dave, and others


Third, we have to recognize that we (on this and other forums) are not the only S&W collectors in the land. There may be many many more that we do not know, and never hear from, and have no idea about the guns they own.

Mike
This is one reason I laugh when I hear someone state "Only one know", yeah, maybe to you, but not to the person that has one or two.

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Don Mundell

[quote=Club Gun Fan;139603389]But shouldn't those of us on the Forum get right of first refusal ?

I think a big part of the answer is that you'll find them on the Internet.

As even old farts like me have gotten reasonably wise to how this new-fangled stuff works, the days when those nice guns would be sitting under glass at some country gun shop waiting for you to amble in and maybe take a week to make up your mind are simply history.

You've got nation-wide competition now. You may not like it, but complaining won't do much good. Someone like me in an area that has neither decent LGS's nor particularly impressive gun shows within reasonable driving distance gets the same chance at a good buy as the guy living down the street from the seller or in cities with regular big regional shows.

I like it that way. I don't see any fewer older guns of the type you refer to available than 10 or 20 years ago. But they're gone again much faster. You snooze, you lose. I've missed out and been ticked off many times. But you just keep alert, and another interesting one will pop up.

[quote=bruce5781;139603438]I think so.

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Don Mundell

my 1947, 2 inch, .38 Military & Police...with blemishes.....

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There's nowt so queer as folk

Those are not blemishes. Thosr are character marks.

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk

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Regards,
Bruce

That's true in most cases I have come to find out. But after having lived in Iberville outside of Baton Rouge for a few years, I definitely know what you are talking about. Not cleaning/storing your firearms properly in that humidity will eat up a firearm in no time. By the way you wouldn't send me some Manda sausage and Abita beer up would ya?

Have an early K-22 I bought to cut the bbl to 3 1/2" for a field gun or carry it as is. It just has a lot of finish loss and the timing is good. Found another K-22 with a bulged bbl cheaper for a bbl cut field gun so the first is for sale. It's a 5 digit for 425 shipped. Larry

I think many of them are still out there... you just have to keep your eye out...

Here's a model 1896, shipped to Jersey City P.D.

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

A lot of those honest old guns are still doing honest work for old fellers like me.

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Eccentric old coot

Guilty as charged! I guess I may be part of the problem having just turned 30 years old, I've only been collecting for 9 years. I've come to deeply appreciate old and out of production firearms, especially revolvers the past few years. This target triple lock's original finish shows its age and history, but the lockup/timing and mechanicals are better than all of my other revolvers except my 625 5 inch. Some time between the last 100+ years the original grips were scrapped for a pair from a non registered magnum...

It shoots ragged holes all day with HSM cowboy loads. It wasn't $300 but relative to what it is, what I paid for it felt like $300.

SVT28

Here's one more Triple Lock with a cut down barrel. Still a great shooter.

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You really do need to watch, as in haunt, the auction sites. Gun shows and your LGS are generally full of people, starting with the owners, who know what the things for sale are worth. Over the years I've accidentally purchased things on auction sites, like an essentially new Model 439, a 6" 4-screw Model 14 and a decent Remington 513T, each for under $200. I say "accidentally" because that's how I've explained it to my financial manager, aka wife. Each time I saw something out there at a ridiculously low price and threw out a lowball bid, assuming that somebody with more disposable income would run me over in his rush to grab it, and each time it went for my bid, which was usually the starting bid. Sometimes you get lucky and everybody else is asleep at the wheel. I make it a habit to check the sold items in my watch list and I've kicked myself now and then when I see that somebody else has scored a killing the same way.

I think one reason the prices on old shooters has gone up is people are educating themselves before selling and to prices on all things firearms has been up also if you wanted to sell grandpa's old revolver back in the day you went to pawn shop used gun shop or maybe advertised in the local paper ,today you can advertise across the county or even international right from your smart phone .

You guys keep reading here I got to go check gun broker for some deals .

Here's a strange case. 1903 in .38 special with no finish left at all. Tight as a drum with a great bore and chambers.

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I'm real fond of those old round butt K frames.

That's a Model of 1902. A Model of 1903 would be an I frame in .32 S&W Long.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Here is the gun I am waiting for off Gunbroker. You all had the opportunity to buy it.

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Al