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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 06-04-2017, 05:50 AM
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Default early HE with different markings

I recently picked up this "honest" 1905 HE. The finish was gone, so I performed my first rust blue. It was overseas at some point as it has eccja import mark. It has some oddities. The ejector rod is one piece, not a separate ferule. THe cylinder release doesn't have a nut on a shaft. Its a screw. and then the markings.

on hammer

on barrel

the grips were shot with gouges and checkering worn down. I was going to put new grips on, but decided to sand the grips down victory-ish looking.
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Old 06-04-2017, 06:13 AM
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Spanish copy ??
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:50 AM
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Doesn't appear to be a Spaniard. Although my thought was some foreign replacement parts while overseas. The barrel, cylinder, and frame numbers all match and look factory smith too
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:03 AM
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Got to be a copy. The caliber roll mark is too cramped to be S&W original. Registrados on hammer is Spanish. What is the serial number?
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:25 AM
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78,xxx. I see reg u.s.pa does..or doe6?Would the Spanish spell registrados wrong? I don't know? We do know eccja penn was an importer...anyone seen a Spaniard with import marks? different huh...

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Old 06-04-2017, 08:27 AM
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Also the guts aren't the smith/colt mix like other spaniards. Exact smith although it does look like several studs were replaced inside the revolver as noted by the not perfect exterior rework

** Importer eccsa penn

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Old 06-04-2017, 09:21 AM
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Whatever it is, it is not a S&W.
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Old 06-04-2017, 09:44 AM
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Khyber pass copy?
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Old 06-04-2017, 10:36 AM
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The serial is 78744
So either it's a
Probable Spanish copy or other copy
A mixmaster bubba smith

I wish the letters weren't so darn expensive, I'd be curious to see if 78744
Went overseas and has matching build characteristics
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:08 AM
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If it is a S&W, the SN would put it around 1906 which is right for the rebound slide change. I suppose it could be a S&W frame that has been worked on.
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:23 AM
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I'll pop it open when I get home from work. I have 2 Spanish copies I can compare the inside of the frames to (as far as polishing etc. ) that's why I love the "honest" guns. So much history with a little mystery
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy View Post
If it is a S&W, the SN would put it around 1906 which is right for the rebound slide change. I suppose it could be a S&W frame that has been worked on.
The small logo is too far to the left compared to my S&W specimen, so I'm not giving the frame a pass either .

Given the logo location, though, it indicates that they copied an original from the 1920s, and during that time the Basques in Northern Spain were THE purveyors of fine and (mostly) not so fine copies of S&W K-frames, so despite the absence of manufacturer markings, I'm certain this comes from Eibar or surroundings, and was probably sold to South America.
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:38 AM
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I would put my money on Khyber Pass manufacture since it appears to have a S&W trademark, not to mention "Smith & Wesson" on the barrel. Spanish copies would usually have something close enough to escape notice on a casual inspection, but not outright duplications.
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:19 PM
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The caliber markings on the right side of barrel are all wrong. Really is confusing what is stamped there.
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsfricks View Post
The caliber markings on the right side of barrel are all wrong. Really is confusing what is stamped there.
I wonder whether they had only a really beat-up original to work from.

If you step back and remember what's supposed to be there, it's quite clear.

The dingbats are missing, they mis-read the letter C for an O and the G at the end for a 3, and there must have been a scratch on the original that made them think that an I belonged in the space between S&W and SPECIAL.
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
I wonder whether they had only a really beat-up original to work from.

If you step back and remember what's supposed to be there, it's quite clear.

The dingbats are missing, they mis-read the letter C for an O and the G at the end for a 3, and there must have been a scratch on the original that made them think that an I belonged in the space between S&W and SPECIAL.
The I and the O's is what was getting me. I believe what looks like a 3 is actually a G where the backside of it was stamped lighter.
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Old 06-04-2017, 03:43 PM
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The I and the O's is what was getting me. I believe what looks like a 3 is actually a G where the backside of it was stamped lighter.
That's the best explanation yet for the barrel!
We are narrowing it down
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Old 06-04-2017, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
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..... I believe what looks like a 3 is actually a G where the backside of it was stamped lighter.
You could be right. The attached snip is about as enhanced as I could get it. If the G was struck at an angle from the right, this 3-ish impression could indeed result.
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Old 06-04-2017, 05:47 PM
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Don't look like a Smith to me.
And I have seen several.
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Old 06-04-2017, 06:47 PM
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Compare the gun in this thread: Here's one I'll bet you've never seen....

Spanish/Basque manufacturers wouldn't mess up the characters of the Roman alphabet. If they wanted to spell out REG.U.S.PAT.OFF. they would get all the letters right.

Mr. Richard and Mr. Flash called it -- Khyber Pass.

That gun in the thread I linked to (or another that was very similar) also appeared in a different thread, as I recall, but I haven't bothered to look for it. The O.P. was trying to find out if it was valuable because part of the Smith & Wesson name was upside down, kind of like that 24-cent "Inverted Jenny" Air Mail stamp from nearly a century ago.
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:16 PM
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Another piece of the puzzle solved...
Got home and pulled out my smiths and the 2 spaniards. The spaniards of course are different is colt springs. The spaniards all seem to have the stock pin rearward , not centered. This one does. Concentrated on the trademark. It matched size size and spot nearly identical to a .32 of the same period (my other smiths had either no or different spot trademarks). Looked at guts, Dry very close to a smith...then a moment of clarity. Stocks from a 20's smith k frame and a set of victory grips were right there.. sure enough...they don't fit!! Off in two spots. Bear with me...
The stocks that are on the copy in question have good looking medallions and say made in USA on bottom...but....they don't fit the known definite smiths I have...they got sooo much right, but the frame handle curve. I'll post a pic....
In conclusion for this chapter:
I don't think it's a Spaniard ...it deviates to much
So let's assume it from an eastern source. A clue would be where essc penn imported their batch of "smiths" from. Did they come from some former British colony? Southwest or Southeast Asia?
That I think would pin it down. We know the brits sourced local made enfields for second line troops. Were smiths used and a copy folded into inventory and it sent over with a batch of real smiths to the USA? I think that's the only piece of the puzzle left. Interesting hunt on this one.
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:22 PM
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Reading that linked thread, I find the Philippines a more likely candidate due to its close US connections. The Khyber "replicas" are overwhelmingly copies of guns that actually were in use and played a role in that area in the period when they were made. Consequently, all Khyber revolvers I've seen were copies of Webleys or Enfields. A 1920s S&W in .38 Spl would be a really odd duck.

Quote:
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.... We know the brits sourced local made enfields for second line troops. Were smiths used and a copy folded into inventory and it sent over with a batch of real smiths to the USA? I think that's the only piece of the puzzle left. Interesting hunt on this one.
Wherever the "model" for this one came from, it was not a British Service S&W. Both the .38 Spl caliber barrel stamping and the small logo on the left argue against that possibility.

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Old 06-04-2017, 07:30 PM
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Bottom of grips

Notice copied made in USA and wrong angle


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Old 06-04-2017, 07:34 PM
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Notice angles of grip with frame and upper gap at curve
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:36 PM
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My two spaniards and my other copy
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:39 PM
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Absalom, great points. So consensus? Do we agree on Philippines?
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Old 06-05-2017, 06:56 AM
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Absalom, great points. So consensus? Do we agree on Philippines?
I'm willing to consider the Philippines, but I would like to see pictures of confirmed Philippine knock-offs with similar spelling errors.

I'm uneasy about the fact that the frame looks as though it is made of a weak metal like what Ford used on their cast column-mounted shift collars in the 1960s -- the ones that broke if you used an ounce too much force getting into reverse.
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:30 AM
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It may be my eyes but it also looks like the pin in the cylinder/extractor rod latch is a bit more rearward than the other examples. Not sure how that compares to a true S&W but looks to be a different placement than the two Spaniards.
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson View Post
Compare the gun in this thread: Here's one I'll bet you've never seen....

Spanish/Basque manufacturers wouldn't mess up the characters of the Roman alphabet. If they wanted to spell out REG.U.S.PAT.OFF. they would get all the letters right.

...
DC Wilson: Thanks for the link to that very interesting thread. I read it completely and will go back and read it again. Apparently, knockoffs are made in a lot of different countries around the world, without much concern about the process of the law.

I have never knowingly seen a Pilipino copy of a S&W so I can't really say this isn't one. However, I agree with the comment in bold, above. The markings on the OP revolver look like they were done by someone who has no familiarity whatsoever with our Western Alphabet. (Like someone in a remote area of Afghanistan or thereabouts.) As well, he may have been making a copy of a copy, using techniques and tools not much more advanced than what was available in Medieval Europe.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:02 PM
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Here's some more stuff about a possible Khyber Pass gun.

Khyber Pass S&W

Troubling .38 Regulation Police on Gunbroker

regulation police

This gun is different -- different frame size, even -- from the one I linked to in an earlier post, and I apologize for confusing the two. One of the new threads in this post has a couple of photos in it, but not as many as we would like.
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Old 06-05-2017, 09:22 PM
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I don't think we'll ever settle this definitely, although it is interesting detective work.

The very nature of a "hand-made" gun makes looking for a typical comparable specimen a bit of a fool's errand, as any individual gun-maker could come up with whatever he wanted.

The Spanish census at the turn of the 19./20 century showed 1,149 people in Eibar alone identified as "gunsmiths", in a town of just a few 10,000, and some of these "manufacturers" had only one employee, themselves. Any generalizations as to the features of a typical "Spanish copy" of a S&W are pointless. And there is no question that in the 1920s/30s, when this copy was most likely fabricated, copying exactly this type of S&W revolver was a major occupation there.

On the other hand, the script argument carries quite a bit of weight. Both Spanish and Basque use Latin script, so a basic unfamiliarity with letters as evidenced here does make an origin in another region with a different alphabet more likely.

In looking through old threads and postings on the web, also in other forums, it appears these days "Khyber Pass gun" increasingly is becoming a generic term for any home-baked fake gun from a less-than-sophisticated source, regardless of geographic origin. I wonder how many folks can still find the Khyber on a map .
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