|
|
06-04-2017, 05:50 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
early HE with different markings
I recently picked up this "honest" 1905 HE. The finish was gone, so I performed my first rust blue. It was overseas at some point as it has eccja import mark. It has some oddities. The ejector rod is one piece, not a separate ferule. THe cylinder release doesn't have a nut on a shaft. Its a screw. and then the markings.
on hammer
on barrel
the grips were shot with gouges and checkering worn down. I was going to put new grips on, but decided to sand the grips down victory-ish looking.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
06-04-2017, 06:13 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DUNNELLON, FLORIDA USA
Posts: 11,102
Likes: 1,690
Liked 16,302 Times in 4,231 Posts
|
|
Spanish copy ??
|
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
|
|
06-04-2017, 07:50 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
Doesn't appear to be a Spaniard. Although my thought was some foreign replacement parts while overseas. The barrel, cylinder, and frame numbers all match and look factory smith too
|
06-04-2017, 08:03 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AL Wiregrass
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 34,562
Liked 10,739 Times in 3,659 Posts
|
|
Got to be a copy. The caliber roll mark is too cramped to be S&W original. Registrados on hammer is Spanish. What is the serial number?
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
06-04-2017, 08:25 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
78,xxx. I see reg u.s.pa does..or doe6?Would the Spanish spell registrados wrong? I don't know? We do know eccja penn was an importer...anyone seen a Spaniard with import marks? different huh...
Last edited by Vbk76; 06-04-2017 at 08:30 AM.
|
06-04-2017, 08:27 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
Also the guts aren't the smith/colt mix like other spaniards. Exact smith although it does look like several studs were replaced inside the revolver as noted by the not perfect exterior rework
** Importer eccsa penn
Last edited by Vbk76; 06-04-2017 at 08:34 AM.
|
06-04-2017, 09:21 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,949 Times in 14,015 Posts
|
|
Whatever it is, it is not a S&W.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
06-04-2017, 09:44 AM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Central IL
Posts: 22,758
Likes: 18,437
Liked 22,313 Times in 8,245 Posts
|
|
Khyber pass copy?
__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
06-04-2017, 10:36 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
The serial is 78744
So either it's a
Probable Spanish copy or other copy
A mixmaster bubba smith
I wish the letters weren't so darn expensive, I'd be curious to see if 78744
Went overseas and has matching build characteristics
|
06-04-2017, 11:08 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: AL Wiregrass
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 34,562
Liked 10,739 Times in 3,659 Posts
|
|
If it is a S&W, the SN would put it around 1906 which is right for the rebound slide change. I suppose it could be a S&W frame that has been worked on.
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629
|
06-04-2017, 11:23 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
I'll pop it open when I get home from work. I have 2 Spanish copies I can compare the inside of the frames to (as far as polishing etc. ) that's why I love the "honest" guns. So much history with a little mystery
|
06-04-2017, 11:27 AM
|
|
SWCA Member Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy
If it is a S&W, the SN would put it around 1906 which is right for the rebound slide change. I suppose it could be a S&W frame that has been worked on.
|
The small logo is too far to the left compared to my S&W specimen, so I'm not giving the frame a pass either .
Given the logo location, though, it indicates that they copied an original from the 1920s, and during that time the Basques in Northern Spain were THE purveyors of fine and (mostly) not so fine copies of S&W K-frames, so despite the absence of manufacturer markings, I'm certain this comes from Eibar or surroundings, and was probably sold to South America.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
06-04-2017, 11:38 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,292
Likes: 33,758
Liked 10,949 Times in 3,947 Posts
|
|
I would put my money on Khyber Pass manufacture since it appears to have a S&W trademark, not to mention "Smith & Wesson" on the barrel. Spanish copies would usually have something close enough to escape notice on a casual inspection, but not outright duplications.
__________________
They lack our altruism.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
06-04-2017, 02:19 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kennesaw,Ga
Posts: 2,579
Likes: 3,939
Liked 5,523 Times in 1,148 Posts
|
|
The caliber markings on the right side of barrel are all wrong. Really is confusing what is stamped there.
__________________
That's what she said!
|
06-04-2017, 02:31 PM
|
|
SWCA Member Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsfricks
The caliber markings on the right side of barrel are all wrong. Really is confusing what is stamped there.
|
I wonder whether they had only a really beat-up original to work from.
If you step back and remember what's supposed to be there, it's quite clear.
The dingbats are missing, they mis-read the letter C for an O and the G at the end for a 3, and there must have been a scratch on the original that made them think that an I belonged in the space between S&W and SPECIAL.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
06-04-2017, 02:33 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kennesaw,Ga
Posts: 2,579
Likes: 3,939
Liked 5,523 Times in 1,148 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom
I wonder whether they had only a really beat-up original to work from.
If you step back and remember what's supposed to be there, it's quite clear.
The dingbats are missing, they mis-read the letter C for an O and the G at the end for a 3, and there must have been a scratch on the original that made them think that an I belonged in the space between S&W and SPECIAL.
|
The I and the O's is what was getting me. I believe what looks like a 3 is actually a G where the backside of it was stamped lighter.
__________________
That's what she said!
Last edited by jsfricks; 06-04-2017 at 02:35 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
06-04-2017, 03:43 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsfricks
The I and the O's is what was getting me. I believe what looks like a 3 is actually a G where the backside of it was stamped lighter.
|
That's the best explanation yet for the barrel!
We are narrowing it down
|
06-04-2017, 05:29 PM
|
|
SWCA Member Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsfricks
..... I believe what looks like a 3 is actually a G where the backside of it was stamped lighter.
|
You could be right. The attached snip is about as enhanced as I could get it. If the G was struck at an angle from the right, this 3-ish impression could indeed result.
|
06-04-2017, 05:47 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: ALBUQUERQUE, NM
Posts: 13,847
Likes: 8,067
Liked 25,340 Times in 8,518 Posts
|
|
Don't look like a Smith to me.
And I have seen several.
__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER
|
06-04-2017, 06:47 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,993
Likes: 4,998
Liked 7,681 Times in 2,618 Posts
|
|
Compare the gun in this thread: Here's one I'll bet you've never seen....
Spanish/Basque manufacturers wouldn't mess up the characters of the Roman alphabet. If they wanted to spell out REG.U.S.PAT.OFF. they would get all the letters right.
Mr. Richard and Mr. Flash called it -- Khyber Pass.
That gun in the thread I linked to (or another that was very similar) also appeared in a different thread, as I recall, but I haven't bothered to look for it. The O.P. was trying to find out if it was valuable because part of the Smith & Wesson name was upside down, kind of like that 24-cent "Inverted Jenny" Air Mail stamp from nearly a century ago.
__________________
David Wilson
Last edited by DCWilson; 06-04-2017 at 06:54 PM.
Reason: Had to clean up the link,
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
06-04-2017, 07:16 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
Another piece of the puzzle solved...
Got home and pulled out my smiths and the 2 spaniards. The spaniards of course are different is colt springs. The spaniards all seem to have the stock pin rearward , not centered. This one does. Concentrated on the trademark. It matched size size and spot nearly identical to a .32 of the same period (my other smiths had either no or different spot trademarks). Looked at guts, Dry very close to a smith...then a moment of clarity. Stocks from a 20's smith k frame and a set of victory grips were right there.. sure enough...they don't fit!! Off in two spots. Bear with me...
The stocks that are on the copy in question have good looking medallions and say made in USA on bottom...but....they don't fit the known definite smiths I have...they got sooo much right, but the frame handle curve. I'll post a pic....
In conclusion for this chapter:
I don't think it's a Spaniard ...it deviates to much
So let's assume it from an eastern source. A clue would be where essc penn imported their batch of "smiths" from. Did they come from some former British colony? Southwest or Southeast Asia?
That I think would pin it down. We know the brits sourced local made enfields for second line troops. Were smiths used and a copy folded into inventory and it sent over with a batch of real smiths to the USA? I think that's the only piece of the puzzle left. Interesting hunt on this one.
|
06-04-2017, 07:22 PM
|
|
SWCA Member Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
|
|
Reading that linked thread, I find the Philippines a more likely candidate due to its close US connections. The Khyber "replicas" are overwhelmingly copies of guns that actually were in use and played a role in that area in the period when they were made. Consequently, all Khyber revolvers I've seen were copies of Webleys or Enfields. A 1920s S&W in .38 Spl would be a really odd duck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vbk76
.... We know the brits sourced local made enfields for second line troops. Were smiths used and a copy folded into inventory and it sent over with a batch of real smiths to the USA? I think that's the only piece of the puzzle left. Interesting hunt on this one.
|
Wherever the "model" for this one came from, it was not a British Service S&W. Both the .38 Spl caliber barrel stamping and the small logo on the left argue against that possibility.
Last edited by Absalom; 06-04-2017 at 07:31 PM.
|
06-04-2017, 07:30 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
Bottom of grips
Notice copied made in USA and wrong angle
Last edited by Vbk76; 06-04-2017 at 07:33 PM.
|
06-04-2017, 07:34 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
Notice angles of grip with frame and upper gap at curve
|
06-04-2017, 07:36 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
My two spaniards and my other copy
|
06-04-2017, 07:39 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 326
Likes: 58
Liked 802 Times in 172 Posts
|
|
Absalom, great points. So consensus? Do we agree on Philippines?
|
06-05-2017, 06:56 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,993
Likes: 4,998
Liked 7,681 Times in 2,618 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vbk76
Absalom, great points. So consensus? Do we agree on Philippines?
|
I'm willing to consider the Philippines, but I would like to see pictures of confirmed Philippine knock-offs with similar spelling errors.
I'm uneasy about the fact that the frame looks as though it is made of a weak metal like what Ford used on their cast column-mounted shift collars in the 1960s -- the ones that broke if you used an ounce too much force getting into reverse.
__________________
David Wilson
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
06-05-2017, 07:30 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 9,575
Likes: 3,695
Liked 8,924 Times in 3,545 Posts
|
|
It may be my eyes but it also looks like the pin in the cylinder/extractor rod latch is a bit more rearward than the other examples. Not sure how that compares to a true S&W but looks to be a different placement than the two Spaniards.
__________________
James Redfield
LM #497
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
06-05-2017, 07:18 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,292
Likes: 33,758
Liked 10,949 Times in 3,947 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson
Compare the gun in this thread: Here's one I'll bet you've never seen....
Spanish/Basque manufacturers wouldn't mess up the characters of the Roman alphabet. If they wanted to spell out REG.U.S.PAT.OFF. they would get all the letters right.
...
|
DC Wilson: Thanks for the link to that very interesting thread. I read it completely and will go back and read it again. Apparently, knockoffs are made in a lot of different countries around the world, without much concern about the process of the law.
I have never knowingly seen a Pilipino copy of a S&W so I can't really say this isn't one. However, I agree with the comment in bold, above. The markings on the OP revolver look like they were done by someone who has no familiarity whatsoever with our Western Alphabet. (Like someone in a remote area of Afghanistan or thereabouts.) As well, he may have been making a copy of a copy, using techniques and tools not much more advanced than what was available in Medieval Europe.
__________________
They lack our altruism.
|
06-05-2017, 08:02 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,993
Likes: 4,998
Liked 7,681 Times in 2,618 Posts
|
|
Here's some more stuff about a possible Khyber Pass gun.
Khyber Pass S&W
Troubling .38 Regulation Police on Gunbroker
regulation police
This gun is different -- different frame size, even -- from the one I linked to in an earlier post, and I apologize for confusing the two. One of the new threads in this post has a couple of photos in it, but not as many as we would like.
__________________
David Wilson
|
06-05-2017, 09:22 PM
|
|
SWCA Member Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
|
|
I don't think we'll ever settle this definitely, although it is interesting detective work.
The very nature of a "hand-made" gun makes looking for a typical comparable specimen a bit of a fool's errand, as any individual gun-maker could come up with whatever he wanted.
The Spanish census at the turn of the 19./20 century showed 1,149 people in Eibar alone identified as "gunsmiths", in a town of just a few 10,000, and some of these "manufacturers" had only one employee, themselves. Any generalizations as to the features of a typical "Spanish copy" of a S&W are pointless. And there is no question that in the 1920s/30s, when this copy was most likely fabricated, copying exactly this type of S&W revolver was a major occupation there.
On the other hand, the script argument carries quite a bit of weight. Both Spanish and Basque use Latin script, so a basic unfamiliarity with letters as evidenced here does make an origin in another region with a different alphabet more likely.
In looking through old threads and postings on the web, also in other forums, it appears these days "Khyber Pass gun" increasingly is becoming a generic term for any home-baked fake gun from a less-than-sophisticated source, regardless of geographic origin. I wonder how many folks can still find the Khyber on a map .
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|