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Old 06-18-2017, 04:59 PM
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Didn't know where else to post this, but since this era covers most C&R guns, decided to put it here. (I know, guns over 50 years old qualify for C&R, so that takes us up to 1967.)

I just received my C&R. If I buy a qualified gun on an auction site and send them a copy of my signed license (pdf, jpg, etc.) that is OK. But if I buy a gun out of state, face to face, I have to have an unsigned copy of my license and sign it at the time of purchase?? Is this what you C&R licensee's do, or do you use a different method?

Thanks for any input.
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:15 PM
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That is exactly what I do for out-of-state. I usually send a copy with payment but email, etc. is ok.

Keep in mind that if you live in a state that allows private party transfers, ie. no ffl involved, you have to list the acquisition or sale of a c&r firearm in your book. I could not find that in the manual that ATF provides but an agent in my area told me that is required.
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:20 PM
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In my experience, yes. Although sometimes, in a face to face
situation, that little business card size license you got on the bottom works just fine. Not sure why some want you to sign
a copy in front of them, but some do. Just keep a few copies in
your wallet.
Enjoy your new license.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:19 PM
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All of the FFL's around here refuse to honor a C&R and will not ship to one. Hope you have a better experience.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:56 PM
i1afli i1afli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kscharlie View Post
But if I buy a gun out of state, face to face, I have to have an unsigned copy of my license and sign it at the time of purchase?
Yes, this is what you'd do if buying from a licensee.

However I'd like to take the OP's question a step further....what if buying face to face from a private individual out of state? I believe this would be a legal transaction right? Give them a signed copy of my c&r just in case they have to show that they legally sold to an out of state individual?
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:54 PM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
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Signing in person is fine IF the signiture is going to be compared to say the one on your picture ID (State D/L).
Otherwise what is the point,,, signing the name that appears on the FFL doesn't prove that the signee is that person.
Yes I know the D/L could be a fake and on and on,,but how far is the seller supposed to take this IDing the buyer thing anyway. They're not Sgt Friday and connected to NCIC after all.

But I admit I've had the same request as an 01FFL and comply to keep everyone happy.

I don't carry signed copys of my FFL at all. I always sign & date them at the point of sale.
Many dealers also ask for additional ID if they are not familiar with me,,no offense take,,just the nature of the biz these days.

Most write 'File Copy only for xxxx', or 'Not for purchase' in big letters across the face of the copy so it is used for just that one transaction.

A copy of that copy cannot easily be used by someone else to purchase a firearm in the licensee's name as it's hard to blank out the large over written message, unlike the signiture and date where you signed it.

There's no sure fire safe guards against misuse but you can try and deter it.

If you are buying from a non-licensee on your FFL license ( 01 or 03) and in state or out of state,,give the seller a Receipt.
A professionally printed receipt of sale with your name and contact info on it. You can include the FFL number if you wish. Many just put the last 6 (?) & exp of the FFL # on their stationary.
No ffl copy floating around and a business receipt is the standard for a transaction no matter the business you're in,,not a copy of the business license.
Showing them the license copy to verify is fine, but I don't like to use them as receipts. I exchange them only with other FFL's as necessary.
Just my .02.

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Old 06-19-2017, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by i1afli View Post
Yes, this is what you'd do if buying from a licensee.

However I'd like to take the OP's question a step further....what if buying face to face from a private individual out of state? I believe this would be a legal transaction right? Give them a signed copy of my c&r just in case they have to show that they legally sold to an out of state individual?
Not just in case. If you're buying out-of-state from anyone you need to give them your C&R info. I don't know if showing them the little card is enough. You also have to enter into your A&D book so you'll need their info for the entry.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by epj View Post
All of the FFL's around here refuse to honor a C&R and will not ship to one. Hope you have a better experience.
I don't want to take this off topic but IMO FFLs who refuse to take a C&R license on a valid transaction do so out of greed. I refuse to buy anything from these guys and would encourage others with a C&R to do the same. The purpose of a C&R for collectors is beings circumvented by these "dealers" so don't let them get away with it. If you're an 01 FFL reading who won't honor C&R licenses this don't bother replying as I've heard all the lame excuses.
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Old 06-19-2017, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by italiansport View Post
I don't want to take this off topic but IMO FFLs who refuse to take a C&R license on a valid transaction do so out of greed. I refuse to buy anything from these guys and would encourage others with a C&R to do the same. The purpose of a C&R for collectors is beings circumvented by these "dealers" so don't let them get away with it. If you're an 01 FFL reading who won't honor C&R licenses this don't bother replying as I've heard all the lame excuses.
Jim
Oh so C&R = free?

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Old 06-19-2017, 02:21 PM
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I've had a C&R for about 10 years now, do a lot of shopping at online auctions as well as major auction houses. Major houses have never been a problem for me, small dealers with just a few sales are usually a problem. Now I pretty much avoid sellers with less than 100 feedbacks, unless it's a really interesting item. I used to always check (Accept C&R?) before a bid but it has gotten to be where almost all do & I usually just send an email copy after the sale.

I think online sellers are turning a corner on C&R's. Some of the major sellers, LS&B for example, sent a note after my last auction purchase from them. They said they would keep my license on file for my next purchase. That is a nice touch that says they value my business - not many that way now but its getting better!

With regard to out of state purchase/sale. If you cross state lines its in the federal jurisdiction. My belief is it has to be with the appropriate license.
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italiansport View Post
I don't want to take this off topic but IMO FFLs who refuse to take a C&R license on a valid transaction do so out of greed. I refuse to buy anything from these guys and would encourage others with a C&R to do the same. The purpose of a C&R for collectors is beings circumvented by these "dealers" so don't let them get away with it. If you're an 01 FFL reading who won't honor C&R licenses this don't bother replying as I've heard all the lame excuses.
Jim
With all due respect, but I don't understand this reasoning.

The transfer dealer I'm using ships to and accepts from C&R licensees, which makes life easier for me.

But if he didn't, how is that greed? I'm not paying him any more for shipping and receiving to/from an 01 FFL, and if he refused to deal with C&R's, he'd simply lose my business on those transactions. And if I had a C&R, nobody would make a cent more refusing to ship to me and insisting on shipping to my 01 FFL dealer instead.

For a dealer, refusing a legitimate C&R transaction makes no sense, but your greed argument doesn't either.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
"For a dealer, refusing a legitimate C&R transaction makes no sense, but your greed argument doesn't either."



Greed: An attempt to keep all transactions among and between only 01 FFLs. There's your greed. If a C&R firearm I buy from an 01 FFL won't be shipped to me it has to go to an 01 FFL dealer. They charge a minimum of $25 here to do a transfer. There is NO Charge if it ships directly to me on my C&R license. Now does it make "sense" to you?
And I agree with the comment above that a lot more dealers are now willing to ship to a C&R licensee. Apparently they have discovered it make good business sense.
Jim

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Old 06-19-2017, 07:30 PM
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I guess my dealer isn't greedy then. She does it for free to get folks into her store. Two other dealers near me do the same thing.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimdvan View Post
That is exactly what I do for out-of-state. I usually send a copy with payment but email, etc. is ok.

Keep in mind that if you live in a state that allows private party transfers, ie. no ffl involved, you have to list the acquisition or sale of a c&r firearm in your book. I could not find that in the manual that ATF provides but an agent in my area told me that is required.
This is an email reply from ATF to my question concerning purchases where the C&R is not used.

Good morning,

As long as your personal firearms are not purchased with your C and R license then ATF does not require you to record them or to track them.

Regards,
David Howell
Firearms Industry Programs Branch


-----Original Message-----
From: sidesfam@comporium.net [mailto:sidesfam@comporium.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 12:41 PM
To: FIPB Regulatory Email Inquiries <FIPB@atf.gov>
Subject: C&R license question

I just received my C&R license. I understand the record keeping associated with the license, and C&R firearms purchased and disposed of using the license.

Are there any record keeping changes associated with the firearms I currently own?

Same question concerning new acquisitions which do not qualify as C&R firearms?


thanks

Charles R. Sides
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
"I just received my C&R license. I understand the record keeping associated with the license, and C&R firearms purchased and disposed of using the license.

Are there any record keeping changes associated with the firearms I currently own?

Same question concerning new acquisitions which do not qualify as C&R firearms?"

Answer: The firearms that you currently own do not have to be recorded unless you sell one and it's in the C&R category.

Answer: "New" firearms (less than 50 years old) that you acquire for your own personal use don't have to be recorded either.

Hope this helps:
Jim

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Old 06-20-2017, 09:46 AM
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The purpose of a C&R FFL is to allow a collector to purchase firearms that qualify in interstate trade legally. The problem with this is that the C&R license is affected by local and state laws in your home state. Here in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts, the state has added restrictions to the term "bonafide collector".

Collecting for your own collection does not raise you to the status of a bonafide collector. One must display ones collection for the education of the public which is why I either try to attend the S&WCA Symposiums when possible or at the very least display my collection at local gun clubs when they hold swap meets that also allow displays of guns that are not for sale. My feeling is that in this way I meet the MA requirement.

The one question that I have had that always seems to get different answers depending on which ATF person is answering is, "If I buy a C&R gun here in MA where I hold a LTC class A which allows me to purchase handguns from MA residents face to face without going through a FFL 01, do I need to add the transaction to my book?" What if I buy from a FFL 01 dealer in MA and use my MA LTC and not my C&R to make the purchase?

Some will say YES and some have said NO. Since the MA requirement on a face to face also requires you to file an FA10 form with the state informing them of the transfer including the license numbers of both the buyer and seller, adding the gun to your C&R book seems redundant. In the dealer purchase the dealer files the 4473 so the government already has a record of the transaction.

Some agents have said any C&R eligible firearm must go in the book regardless of whether the license was used or not, while others have said it is not necessary.

For my purposes, I have decided to add all C&R eligible transactions to the book. If I error in this regard, it is merely because there is too much paperwork on the transaction. If I don't list the gun I could be guilty of failing to use the license properly and risk losing it.

I have decided that too much paperwork is the better option.
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:16 AM
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If you buy out of state, face to face you are at the mercy of the seller. I would assume carrying in a copy and signing it at the store would be sufficient, however I have asked half a dozen different stores across the US if they would sell a C&R eligible gun to me and not once have I received yes. Most shops have no idea what a C&R license is and do not want to deal with something they are un-familiar with.
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:26 AM
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Sometimes it is better not to ask if a dealer or auction company accepts C&R. If there is no clause in the special terms, I bid, buy, and send my C&R. Guess what - I have never been refused. Same with gun shows. I agree on a price from the seller. If during the transaction the seller asks if I have an FFL, I say yes. Deal is made, price is paid, C&R is handed off and, again, I have never been refused. There may be a closed net community of 01s out there trying to keep the transaction business alive, but the greed of getting money in hand seems to seal any deals. In these cases, it’s better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission. Works for me.

I would also recommend carrying a copy of SCSW for those sellers who do not know how old the revolver is they are selling.
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Old 06-20-2017, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
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If you buy out of state, face to face you are at the mercy of the seller. I would assume carrying in a copy and signing it at the store would be sufficient, however I have asked half a dozen different stores across the US if they would sell a C&R eligible gun to me and not once have I received yes. Most shops have no idea what a C&R license is and do not want to deal with something they are un-familiar with.
IMO: An 01 "dealer" would have to be deaf, dumb or incredibly ignorant NOT to know what a C&R FFL is. This to me is the same as saying they don't know what C&R eligible firearms are or why there is even such a category! See my previous comments regarding Greed.
Jim
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