Hello I am looking at purchasing an original British 455 triple lock (serial is 2xxx). Looks to have no pitting or rust but definitely some wear.Looks to have plenty of British proofing. I did notice the barrel says 45ar on it. Does that mean it's been rechambered? Asking price 1000$, Go for it?

Attached Images

	IMG_0560.jpg (20.5 KB, 117 views)
	IMG_0559.jpg (21.7 KB, 114 views)
	IMG_0555.jpg (21.5 KB, 109 views)
	IMG_0557.jpg (22.0 KB, 114 views)
	IMG_0561.jpg (16.1 KB, 104 views)

It can't be all that "original" if it has an "A.R." stamp as that would have been added after market, as well as the British Proofs. Check the chambers to see if it has been bored out to take .45 Colt rounds also. $1,000 doesn't sound like a bargain to me, unless it is unaltered. Ed.

Okay that makes sense he was adamant that it was a 455 but I had just noticed the 45ar when I posted on here. What price range should something like this be in?

AR means Auto Rim, basically a .45 ACP cartridge with a thick rim. That cartridge did not exist until the post-WWI period, and was intended for use in the M1917 Colt and S&W military revolvers instead of .45 ACP in half-moon clips. If it has been modified for .45 AR, .455 cartridges wouldn't work.

Can you see a SN on the rear face of the cylinder? If not, the rear face of the cylinder was probably machined off to allow use of .45 ACP and .45 AR cartridges. This is a situation where several good pictures of the cylinder showing the rear face and the chambers, as well as the gap between the cylinder and recoil shield would be very helpful. Is it worth $1000? About all I can say is that some TL fans might be interested at that price, or close to it. Even in not-so-great condition, TLs have a following simply due to their scarcity.

Hard to see, but the pictures provided appear that the cylinder is loaded with 45 ACP in a full moon clip......

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I saw the loaded cylinder, too. Pretty conclusive evidence of a conversion. I'd say that makes it a $400 - $500 gun, but what do I know ?
And BTW, it's no longer "an original British .455 Triple Lock ".

Larry

Keep in mind that those cylinders were not heat treated or proofed for .45 ACP pressures. The US M-1917 WAS heat treated, because the US Govt. insisted on it. Even so, hot reloads can produce bad results. Stay at basic .45 ACP/AR pressures in M-1917's.

I think those .455's that were altered should be handloaded at .455 pressures, or close.

$400-500 might be a little light on value. Depends on overall finish and function.
$1,000? Definitely not!

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Welcome to the forum.

That's a pretty nice old warhorse.

It's marked 45 AR because whoever converted it knew that the 45 ACP has a pressure rating of 19,000 and not appropriate for the non-heat treated cyl. But the AR is in the same pressure range as the original 455, 14,000 range. Therefore the marking is telling owners that it's the only appropriate cartridge to shoot. 45 AR cases for reloading and ammo are available once again.

Many have used 45 ACP in these converted guns but it is not recommended unless the ACPs are loaded down to no more than 14,000 pressure.

These revolvers were chambered to shoot 455 Mk I (the long version) & Mk II (the short round). Therefore it will still safely chamber and shoot the Mk I round, even though the cylinder has been faced off for the thicker AR round.

Because it's already converted, reaming the chambers deeper for 45 Colt (which is also in the safe pressure range of 14,000) if that cartridge is more desirable, would not de-value it any more than it already is. You could also still shoot down loaded 45 ACP with clips.


It's either a 1st or 2nd variation of the 3 variations of the 455 British Service Revolver. About 63 serial numbers are duplicated between the two variations. The rarest are the 1st variation of only 666 shipped to the Brits. With a full serial # we might be able to tell which one.

THERE ARE THREE BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three groups include some triple locks, but those in the 3rd group are actually 1st versions. “When” roll marked with the cal., they are roll marked only S&W 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book name’ references of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.

This is not be confused with the British revolver name “MK II” for the 455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model, which the British stamped MK II on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
The WWI British contract Colt is marked ".455 ELEY", different than The S&W 455 marking.

They are:

1. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, chambered for .455: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British there are 666 #s1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666). The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 10007.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].

The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.

The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it’s unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.

2. “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL” in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15. Thus creating 63* duplicate serial #s with the 666 “.44 HE 1st Model TL” chambered in .455, 1st version above.

*There are 63 duplicate TL #s existing of the 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (1st version), #s1104-3320 in the .44 HE #range - not all inclusive, known and listed, with 63 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1–5461 in the Brit contract # range.

Because there is no factory cartridge marking on the barrel, it's very likely the one of the rarer 666 TLs.

Does it have a lanyard swivel on the butt and is it drilled thru the butt serial #?

I can comment on price once we establish which model variation it is.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

It seems to me it would be hard to headspace the .45 Colt round in this cylinder if the rear of the cylinder has been faced off.

Curl

The chambers must not be reamed at full depth for 45 Colt. Just far enough for the rolled crimp of the 45 Colt case to headspace on the chamber shoulder and allow the rim to position at the same location relative to the recoil shield as the AR/ACP case; not nest on the chamber mouth.

If the Colt cases are taper crimped like 45 AR/ACP, then a reamer with square shoulder cutter must be used.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

It seems to me it would be hard to headspace the .45 Colt round in this cylinder if the rear of the cylinder has been faced off.

Correct ! There is now way too much space for either .455 or .45 Colt. The only way to make the Colt round fit correctly would be to ADD metal to the rear of the cylinder - technically possible, but in no way cost-effective.

Larry

Larry

I don't think you saw post #11 above your post; you posted just after me, or maybe just didn't understand how it works.

Headspacing 45 Colt on the case mouth has been done many times and is no different than shooting 45 ACP in a revolver w/o using clips shown sticking out of the chambers as you observed in the OP's photo above.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

First off, there is no way I know of to convert a .455 cylinder to headspace a 45acp on the case mouth like a 1917. The OP's gun does not show any half-moon clip so it has to be using a full moon.

Second, yes, it could be possible to ream a pseudo headspace ledge for 45 Colt into the cylinder. Overcoming the problem of roll-crimp vs. taper-crimp would probably work most of the time but would cause problems if you ever decided to shoot regular ACP or AR. (leading at the step that could be a PITA to clean.)

Finally, I've never quite understood the desire to shoot 45 Colt in these old warhorses in the first place. (But that's just me....)
I have a couple of MkVI Webleys that have been shaved. I've made a set of shims that allow me to shoot the original .455 rounds that they were designed for. Someday if I pick up a shaved S&W I will try to make something similar. (They are not interchangeable.)

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Honestly, the asking price is not unreasonable. The seller has to start somewhere and I've seen converted .455 Triple Locks sell for $1,000. It all depends on how well it's been converted, how many proofmarks, and condition as always. I'd pay $1,000 for a Canadian issued .455 nicely converted to .45 Colt and because of the limited number of markings on Canadian guns. The gun above looks like it's in original finish and could clean up even nicer. It also appears to have original stocks. I'd say $750-850 is the value of this item. For those of you who think a Triple Lock is only worth $400-500, you need to step into the 21st century.

Correct, but my reference is to an original 45 ACP revolver, 1917, 1950, etc., not a converted 455. When seated on the case mouth w/o a clip, it would "look like" the photo above showing the case head extending from the chamber.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Hoosier,

I tend to agree with you on the pricing of $750-850. I just can't justify $1000....yet.

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Can this gun be loaded to about 750 FPS with the 250 grain lead SWC/Keith bullet?

That'd make it a good close-in item in a gunfight or for killing coyotes, etc.

CIL (Dominion) used to load .455 Colt (Mark I case) to a nominal 750 FPS, I think. Bullet weight was 265 grains.

Given a choice, I'd sure prefer it to MK II loads.

I think that would be a safe load.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Mine - for comparison --


Probably not military with the only added mark "NOT ENGLISH MADE"seen lower right front of frame. I have about $1000 in it ----->

Most definitely military .

I see the crossed pennants, a British military proof found on imported guns, on the left frame in front of the cylinder. This one is NOT connected to the other nitro proofs.

Upon further enlargement, I also see the broad arrow and what looks like Enfield inspection marks (a bit low resolution to be 100 percent sure) on the top frame behind the cylinder.

Very nice! And it looks unconverted.

Just FYI: The stamp actually reads NOT ENGLISH MAKE (with a K).

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

My 93 years old eyes sometimes fail me. I failed to mention it's converted to .45 Colt, not both .455, & no .45 Colt marking. It looks clean & I was comparing it to another TL with a lot of English stampings, especially the right side of the barrel with a mess of info about cartridge loadings, etc. It's my nearest-to-original TL ------>

Charles Pate illustrates the differences you are describing in his book. The NOT ENGLISH MAKE indicates that this TL was commercially proofed under the "Rules of 1925", some time before 1955, when the new "Rules of 1955" eliminated that phrase from the stamping. The new rules did include the caliber, proof load length, pressure etc., which we also find on most retired Victory BSR's surplussed and proofed in the late 1950's, and which I believe you are describing for the other TL.