I recently got this from Dave Carrol off GB. It's a M&P 1905 4th change in decent shape (despite the fact that the US Postal Service did a great job crushing the box). All serial numbers match, including the stocks. It is 553469. I figure that is in the 1926-29 range? I have no idea what the significance of the 6 pointed star is or when it was put there. Have any of you seen a marking like this on a gun before?

That is a nice one. Congrats. My purchases from David have been mostly very satisfactory as well.

I think your date range is as close as you will get without a factory letter, remembering that guns did not ship in serial order and sometimes there are significant fliers. My M&P #531541 shipped in February, 1926, according to Roy's letter. I doubt yours shipped as late as 1929, but who knows?

As a side note, despite the Standard Catalog's collector designations, S&W stopped calling these guns the "Model of 1905" before the Great War. By the 1920s, they were simply referred to as the .38 Military & Police Square Butt model. I'm sure that's what it says on your now damaged box.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

And no, I don't recognize that star. Maybe the gun spent some time in Israel?

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Thanks for the info. I'm just learning about these M&P's. I'll adjust my terminology. And the box I mentioned was only the shipping box. Looks like the USPS soccer league got a hold of it for a bit.

Well, at least it wasn't the original box that got destroyed!

I recently had a mess created by the USPS also. I sold the gun to a Forum member and my FFL shipped it to the purchaser's FFL in another state. I watched it being packaged and the work was good. When it arrived, the box was ripped open on the side and nearly all the packaging material had been removed. Fortunately the gun was intact and not damaged. I don't know what goes on in the Post Office, but sometimes it isn't good!

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Maybe the star means it was someone's Bar Mitzvah gift. Nice revolver.

I have SN: 577063 and it was shipped on Nov. 19, 1929. You now have two data points with yours somewhere in the middle.

It is a much nicer looking revolver than my example. Mine is not too bad and has a 5" barrel.

The closest SN on my list to 553469 is 5412xx shipping in 4/1927. I also list several others having higher SNs than yours which also shipped in 1927 (closest being 5727xx shipped in 10/27), so it's probably a safe bet yours is also a 1927 M&P.

Yep, that is definitely a Star of David. What it is doing there, however, nicely filled with white paint when none of the other stampings appear to be, I have no idea. The official Israeli star as I have seen it on Victorys and Webleys that were in Israeli service is about that size and appearance, but has a stylized I in it. I think one of the Victory collectors here on the forum has shown one, and there is a photo in Pate's book.

Nope, it is not a Star of David as it does not have the lines running through the star. Star of David looks like two triangles stacked, one right side up and the other upside down. So maybe it is a sheriff's or deputy's star?

The lines are usually depicted, but not a requirement. Here is the Star of David with the I on an Israeli-issue Victory from Pate. As further illustration, an IDF-stamped Mauser.

Doesn't mean your idea couldn't be a viable alternative, of course.

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Not necessarily. Both versions of the star on arms exist. An Israeli Hi-Power:



Webley:

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SWHF #448

Jack, I have just received a letter on a M1905 4th change from Mr. Jinks. at first he calls it a 38 M&P, but further down the letter he refers to it as a S&W 38 M&P Model of 1905 Fourth. # 683938, shipped 7-17-1940, and eventually sold to the Sacramento PD. Only one gun in the shipment to Thompson-Diggs for $20.12 wholesale. Big Larry

Sure. Not surprising. Roy, like many other collectors, tends to use the collector categories which, I believe, were largely popularized by McHenry & Roper and are utilized by Supica and Nahas. These categories were developed in an attempt to systematize the various engineering changes over time. There is nothing inherently wrong with the system, although it is far from perfect. Attempts have been made to address its perceived weaknesses but none of them has caught on broadly within the collector community, so I'm sure we will continue to use the system as is. A lot of the issues related to this are rather "inside baseball" stuff and of no interest to most owners of S&W handguns.

The only point I was making in my earlier post was that advertising circulars, catalogs and box labels stopped using the "Model of" language in the mid-teens. So an M&P made in the early 1920s, for example, was known in the marketplace as a .38 Military & Police model. It is still a Model of 1905 with the 1915 modifications ("Fourth Change") in a technical sense, so to use the collector lingo is not incorrect.

We also tend to use various subdivisions of the "Fourth Change" category, which could include "prewar," BSR and Victory, "postwar," "pre-Model 10." Design changes occurred in the latter three categories, so generally speaking none of them are usually referred to as a "Model of 1905." But the prewar guns up to about 1941 often are.

I hope this explanation is helpful.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Mine, s/n 535896 shipped in April of 1926.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

"We also tend to use various subdivisions of the "Fourth Change" category, which could include "prewar," BSR and Victory, "postwar," "pre-Model 10." "

And also the "pre-Victory" as used for those military revolvers which went to the British Commonwealth prior to the beginning of the V-series. Often, the use of the "Model of 1905, Fourth Change" terminology exists in authoritative S&W references, but "Model of 1905" was not used by S&W in their advertising after the mid-teens. Mechanically, there were essentially no significant changes in the K-frame revolvers made from 1915 until 1945, so in a sense they are all, even Victories, Models of 1905, Fourth Change. But S&W called them only the M&P Model, either round butt or square butt, until the late 1950s.

Anyone familiar with the upscale Mont Blanc fountain pens may know that the six-lobed white star emblem on the pen's cap is a stylized Star of David. But for political correctness reasons in Germany during the years leading up to WWII, the company always said it was a representation of the snow-capped peak of the real Mont Blanc in the Alps.

Thanks for the short lesson Sir. Nice to know. Maybe I will get out of the habit of calling the two early guns I have Model 1905's. I too am a stickler for correctness, but I am not really a S&W collector. I collect Winchesters. You know, M1894- M94 and so on. Thanks again, Big Larry

Great info. Thanks for all the input. I'm considering getting a letter on this, but chances are that it won't reveal much.

A pen sales rep told me that Mont Blanc is sold in Muslim countries with a white square instead of the snow peak on top. The Arabs don't want pens bearing what even might be a Star of David.

As far as I know, the pen company isn't owned by Jews. I prefer Parker pens, anyway. My son now has my only Mont Blanc.

Allegedly, Mont Blanc also used white circular and triangular logos on pen caps of those pens sold in Muslim countries. I haven't used a fountain pen for over 50 years, and I won't start now. Nothing wrong with a twenty-cent ball point pen or a Sharpie from Dollar Tree.

You never know what a letter will reveal. Most of my post and pre war guns are lettered and show the usual distributors. However, I just got a letter on a pre war M&P that was shipped to Thompson-Diggs in Sacramento in 1940, and had been ordered special in a one gun order by the Sacramento PD. Why just one gun? Probably will never know. Letter also states the gun was billed at the wholesale price of $20.12.
I also have a pre M19 that was shipped in a group of 50 like guns to Shapleigh Hardware Co. 7-20-1956, billed at wholesale for $58.40 each. Also shows shipped with walnut target stocks that were standard before the Goncalo Alves. Good luck. Big Larry