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10-06-2021, 09:44 PM
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Jim
Yes every single one was sold to an individual in the vast majority of cases an officer. None were sold to a government department such as the Ministry of Munitions, War Office or Admiralty. A few of these pistol are known, being in museums or private collections or having come up for sale in auctions in the UK.
i have gone through the ledger books for William Evans Gunmaker, Pall Mall London, for the WW1 period and most of their handgun sales were Webley or Colt with a few other makes, but very few Smith & Wesson revolvers. It would seem the Army & Navy Co-Op Stores collard the market in London with .455 S&W's, during late 1914 up to mid 1915.
Regards
Alan
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10-25-2021, 08:37 PM
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Gentleman, I just picked this one up this weekend...
She is well used, mostly brown patina at this point, but IMHO, I like the look...I tend to like the look of a well used gun over a pristine one. I know, I am a bit crazy that way...
So as far as I can tell from my research, she is a 2nd Model Hand Ejector, in .455 part of a Canadian/Brit Contract. S/N is 67087, so I am guessing a late 1916 or 1917 ship date? She has a Canadian Property mark on the left side, and a DCP proof on the barrel flat, and the Crown over 30 mark. Sadly no unit marking.
I'd like to think this one saw some use with the Canadian Army, but it sure saw use somewhere. Sadly, but not surprisingly the cylinder was shaved...since a .45 Colt round will not fit, I assume it was modified for .45 ACP and moon clips. A .455 rund dropped in sticks out a bit, so it looks like she won't shoot them anymore, unlike my shaved Webley which was shaved so, it will fire both.
Saw this on a table this weekend, and had to have it to go with my 1915 Webley and other Commonwealth pistols. Might have to get a letter for this one too.
Hope this helps the effort!
Oh, assembly numbers on crane and frame match, so don't know why the cylinder assembly retains blue...different steel alloy maybe?
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10-25-2021, 08:38 PM
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More Pics...
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10-26-2021, 05:23 PM
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Nice original old warhorse, thank you.
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10-30-2021, 10:40 PM
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Are you still collecting data?
Not mine, but 37891 is a .455 2nd Model HE, known as ‘Bapty’, with detailed photos here: Indiana Jones and The Raiders of The Lost Ark screen used revolver, The Bapty
I have recently acquired 42266, a 2nd Model HE. Typical patent dates on top, left side of the barrel is rollmarked “Smith & Wesson .455.”, then has a crossed pennants mark in line with the barrel just above the yoke. At the back corner above the thumbpiece it has the typical “broad arrow/ crown/ inspector mark/ E/ II” stack. No other added marks: no Birmingham code, no bursting bombs, no double-arrow removal point, no other marks than the serial number on the butt. Serial numbers match, but the one on the back of the cylinder is gone, as the cylinder was cut for ACP moon clips. It’s not a safe queen, nothing a collector would want, especially with the cylinder cut: a lot of honest wear, nicks and scratches, bluing worn. (Any other details needed, just ask).
Regards,
-L
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10-31-2021, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LNBright
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Interesting that they cut the nose off the firing pin. I presume that's was done intentionally to ensure no tragedies like the recent one on the "Rust' movie set.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LNBright
I have recently acquired 42266, a 2nd Model HE. Typical patent dates on top, left side of the barrel is rollmarked Smith & Wesson .455., then has a crossed pennants mark in line with the barrel just above the yoke. At the back corner above the thumbpiece it has the typical broad arrow/ crown/ inspector mark/ E/ II stack. No other added marks: no Birmingham code, no bursting bombs, no double-arrow removal point, no other marks than the serial number on the butt. Serial numbers match, but the one on the back of the cylinder is gone, as the cylinder was cut for ACP moon clips. Its not a safe queen, nothing a collector would want, especially with the cylinder cut: a lot of honest wear, nicks and scratches, bluing worn. (Any other details needed, just ask).
Regards,
-L
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Any pictures?
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10-31-2021, 10:23 AM
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No great ones yet, only ones I have at the moment Id taken to have to check marks, etc; Ill take some decent ones later once back home
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03-12-2022, 01:31 PM
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My contribution to the thread
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03-12-2022, 06:29 PM
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Nice and original.
Looks like the chambers have been counterbored slightly or chamfered. Will the cyl chamber 45 Auto Rim and close? Or 45 Colt?
Your # 2477 is a Type 2 Triple lock, ".455 Mk II Hand Ejector".
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03-13-2022, 12:16 AM
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OK, I'm jumping into this thread so here goes...
I own #4350. No caliber markings anywhere. No modifications or caliber change from original that I can see so I'm guessing it's a .455 caliber and appears to be very British (crossed sword proof marks in usual places on frame).
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03-13-2022, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Tees
OK, I'm jumping into this thread so here goes...
I own #4350. No caliber markings anywhere. No modifications or caliber change from original that I can see so I'm guessing it's a .455 caliber and appears to be very British (crossed sword proof marks in usual places on frame).
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Some photographs will help Jim, and others, determine which version of the 455 you have. Besides, we like photographs.
Here is my 455 New Century,
Here you can see it was poorly converted to 45 long Colt!
(edited to add, I see these are early images. I have since added a lanyard stud and ring.)
Kevin
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03-13-2022, 03:14 PM
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Had one like that. It was converted to shoot cut down .410 shells for pest control per an old magazine article from back in the day when these guns were cheap surplus guns.
Wont have much accuracy without chamber throats. But if it still has rifling in the barrel it can be made to shoot 45 Colt very accurately and easily. Of course you can look for a replacement cyl. But if you reload theres a much simpler solution.
Get some .454 Casull cases, cut them to cyl length and seat bullets flush with case mouth. S&W proved the accuracy of this method with their late 1800s target ammo of .32 & .38-44 cartridges configured the same way and chambered in their large frame break top target revolvers. The is not a case of it working, as much as how well it works!
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03-14-2022, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Tees
OK, I'm jumping into this thread so here goes...
I own #4350. No caliber markings anywhere. No modifications or caliber change from original that I can see so I'm guessing it's a .455 caliber and appears to be very British (crossed sword proof marks in usual places on frame).
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You have a Type 2 British Service Revolver, . 455 Mark II Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock. None of these were caliber/cartridge marked.
The Type 3 didn't begin to be marked until ~ the 27,000 serial range with a some sporadic exceptions; probably early shippers for the #.
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03-19-2022, 12:12 PM
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OP, may help your quest if you'd explain just what Svc stands for in your opinion?
Steve
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03-19-2022, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.B.
OP, may help your quest if you'd explain just what Svc stands for in your opinion?
Steve
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It stands for Service.
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03-19-2022, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.B.
OP, may help your quest if you'd explain just what Svc stands for in your opinion?
Steve
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If you saw it used in the context of Svc grips, it means the round top service grips that are shorter than Magna grips.
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03-20-2022, 04:16 PM
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Have posted this elsewhere, but wanted to add it here. I have #4535, shipped 1/7/1915, covered with British proof marks, converted to .45 Colt - but with shoulders remaining in the chambers. It has the 45 AR stamping on the left side of the barrel.
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03-21-2022, 01:23 PM
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That's a beauty!
Thank you, It's a Type 2 British Service Revolver and I'll add it to the list.
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03-21-2022, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huthike
Have posted this elsewhere, but wanted to add it here. I have #4535, shipped 1/7/1915, covered with British proof marks, converted to .45 Colt - but with shoulders remaining in the chambers. It has the 45 AR stamping on the left side of the barrel.
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If it is stamped "45 AR", it should chamber .45 Auto Rim and .45 ACP in clips.
Can you post a picture of the rear face of the cylinder?
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03-21-2022, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil
If it is stamped "45 AR", it should chamber .45 Auto Rim and .45 ACP in clips.
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Just because it can chamber .45 Auto Rim and .45 ACP doesnt mean you should actually fire said cartridges in this revolver.
PLEASE stick to .45 Colt!
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03-21-2022, 06:56 PM
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Is there a serial # on the rear face of the cyl? If so, it hasn't been shaved for 45 ACP and must have recessed chamber mouths to shoot 45 Colt and 45 AR.
But if it does chamber 45 ACP with 1/2 moon clips I would not shoot ACP in it, the the pressure of 21,000 PSI of that cartridge is more than the cyl was designed for.
However 45 AR and 45 are safe; both are in the 15,000 PSI pressure range.
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Last edited by Hondo44; 03-21-2022 at 07:01 PM.
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03-21-2022, 08:33 PM
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No serial number on back of cylinder. It will chamber 45 Colt, 45 AR, 45 ACP on moon clips and 455 Webley.
Thanks to the knowledge base here, I know I can shoot 45 Colt or 45 AR but not 45 ACP.
My plan is to make it so I can shoot 455 Webley, because
well, because thats what it was made for.
Thats a work in progress that Ill have to update later.
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03-22-2022, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huthike
My plan is to make it so I can shoot 455 Webley, because
well, because thats what it was made for.
Thats a work in progress that Ill have to update later
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Curious how you plan to do this. The rim of the 455 is thinner than current rim and especially the 45 AR. You would need to build up the breech end of the cylinder. Are you planning to use a washer? Or maybe a full moon clip machined to the correct thickness and fixed to the ejector star?
Kevin
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03-22-2022, 09:00 AM
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I got the idea from an article I read by John Taffin, where he had a machinist make a piece that fit the back of the cylinder, with holes for the chambers, that essentially restored the shaved off portion of the cylinder. His machinist said it was tough and he would not do it again.
What I know about machining is only how to spell the word, but luckily, I have a good friend who is a good machinist. He agreed the forming of such a piece would be tough.
So, Plan A: I found a guy online, Georgia, I think, who makes such a device for altered Webley revolvers. I thought maybe one of these would be close and could be altered. It was close, but got chewed up in the cutting when my friend was trying to machine it to fit the S & W.
Plan B: My friend has now altered a couple of .45 ACP moonclips via dremel to hold the Webley rounds. I'll post a pic later, but it makes them VERY VERY skinny little things. Looks like they may work but haven't had time to get to the range for a test.
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03-22-2022, 03:57 PM
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Plan B should work well.
Since the clips would have a very thin edge as you posted, you might consider using Loctite to hold them in place. Unless you want to be able to switch back and forth to also shoot 45 AR.
With a little heat the clips can always be removed if you use Loctite.
But a permanent plate the diameter of the cyl is the best option. Make the holes the diameter of the 45 AR rims. The .455 rims are larger diameter than the AR holes, so you can still shoot .455 with proper head space. And you can shoot AR as well because the rims will fit in the holes and rest against the cyl face.
Loctite the plate to the cyl face.
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07-24-2022, 10:27 AM
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Number 3979, No roll markings on the barrel.
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07-24-2022, 10:50 AM
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My 2nd model is number 7243X. Like DCWILSON's, it has the original "Smith & Wesson .455." roll-mark, supplemented by "CAL. .45 S W", which is roll-marked slightly above and to the right of the original caliber marking.
It has been converted to chamber .45 Colt. The rim thickness problem was solved by removing metal from the surface of the recoil shield.
I would like to learn who did these conversions.
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07-24-2022, 02:54 PM
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Misc. Info: In the 1950s, Carl Hellstrom decided to write a History of S&W when he retired. He put together a notebook of info, preparative to writing the book, however he passed away before he could write the book. His Info. note book included info on the Triple Logs, some of which follows:
Patents on Triple Lock, ser. # 1, Mar. 27, '94 - May 21, '95 - Aug. 4, '96, Dec22, '96- Oct 8 '01 - Feb 6, '06.
Ammunition -
Few chambered for .44 Russian
.44 cal S&W Special
.450 Eley
.45 Colt
.455 Mark II
.44-40 Winchester ( Spl. Order)
About 20,000 made from Sept 1907, as follows:
(Ser # 1-15525 triple Lock construction)
.44 S&W Special -----------13,753
.450 Eley --------------------1,226
.45 Colt ------------------------- 21
.455 Eley -------------------- 5000 ( chg. to .455 Mk II HE May 10,1915)
Several pages if design info follow - too much to include here.
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07-25-2022, 12:09 PM
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I have one for your database. No calibre marking's on the barrel.
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07-26-2022, 05:42 PM
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Hi Richard,
Thank you. That's one of the nicest .455 survivors I've ever seen. Majority of original finish and everything. I'm sure the serial # on the back of the right grip matches the gun.
That's a category 2. 455 Mark II Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock, serial range #1 thru at least #5802.
I'll include it in my next update to the database info, post #223, page 5 of this thread.
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07-27-2022, 09:28 AM
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Unfortunately no serial number on the grips 😞
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07-27-2022, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard taylor
Unfortunately no serial number on the grips 😞
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During this time the numbers were pencilled on the wood. Over time, the pencil fades making hard to read. Sometimes, viewing from various angles helps. I have photographed the stock and. Lown up the images to cind numbers.
Sometimes they are irretrievable.
Kevin
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07-27-2022, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard taylor
Unfortunately no serial number on the grips 😞
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Yes, replacements, they don't fit like the originals would when I look closer at the photos either. But they do match in condition very well.
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09-17-2022, 09:08 AM
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I know that it is an older thread and has been going for a while, but I might as well throw mine in. Mine is serial number 12770. It is marked 455 on the barrel. It has no marks on it at all that were not marks put there by S&W during its manufacture. I am told that it is one of the last shipment sent to Shapliegh Hardware in St. Louis MO.
It is in excellent shape. It might even be non-fired. I know that it spent over fifty of the past years in a private collection in Texas. Before that, I do not know.
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09-17-2022, 09:49 AM
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09-17-2022, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racoonbeast
I know that it is an older thread and has been going for a while, but I might as well throw mine in. Mine is serial number 12770. It is marked 455 on the barrel. It has no marks on it at all that were not marks put there by S&W during its manufacture. I am told that it is one of the last shipment sent to Shapliegh Hardware in St. Louis MO.
It is in excellent shape. It might even be non-fired. I know that it spent over fifty of the past years in a private collection in Texas. Before that, I do not know.
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Your Triple Lock revolver sold in November of 2019.
Scarce Smith & Wesson Commercial First Model 455 Hand Ejector Revolver
It was from a large collection owned by a New Hampshire legislator.
Obituary | Richard "Stretch" Kennedy | Crosby & Neal Funeral Homes and Cremation Services
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09-17-2022, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcvs
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Wow. Thanks for the info. I got the Texas collector story from the guy that I bought it from. Goes to show you. All stories about guns might not be true :-)
Again, thanks for the info. I live in NH and will research this guy. I have never heard of him, but I don't normally pay attention to that stuff. I bought the thing last year, so maybe it was a Texas collector that bought it at this auction and died. My seller might have been told that it came from a fifty year collection, or something. Who knows?
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I guess while I am on a roll, I might as well show pics of my Second Model HE in .455. It is in nice shape. Serial #67399.
There are two non-factory marks on it. I have shown them in the pics.
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09-19-2022, 02:34 PM
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470Evans and racoonbeast,
Thank you for two beautiful examples!
Canadian military shipments of 14,500 .455 2nd Models were as follows:
-1500 Shipped after Aug. 1915
-850 Shipped thru December 24th, 1915
-150 Shipped thru March 31st, 1916
-6000 Shipped thru July 22nd, 1916
-6000 Shipped February 10, 1917
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09-19-2022, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racoonbeast
I know that it is an older thread and has been going for a while, but I might as well throw mine in. Mine is serial number 12770. It is marked 455 on the barrel. It has no marks on it at all that were not marks put there by S&W during its manufacture. I am told that it is one of the last shipment sent to Shapliegh Hardware in St. Louis MO.
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That's a gorgeous Category 4 TL!
4. 44 HE - 1st Model, Triple Lock, same as the 1st category, but not likely factory converted .44s, just unused frames assembled into .455s:
As the Brit contracts were finishing up in April, 1916, [H of S&W pg. 203] S&W found enough [HE 1st Model TL frames, possibly already numbered as .44s, and .455 barrels and cyls] to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters] Triple Lock frames [for building .455s*]. These guns are numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially. Lee Jarrett
*Example #12496 cal marked, British ordinance marks for acceptance into military; old TL inventory made 1914, shipped to commercial dealers in England, this one to Bigelow & Co, London, order of 300 revolvers, 12/6/16.
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Jim
S&WCA #819
Last edited by Hondo44; 09-19-2022 at 03:13 PM.
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12-12-2022, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eltioloco
Here is my 2nd Model. Serial #65,305.
On left side of barrel: Smith & Wesson .455.
British Army broad arrow and Enfield proofed.
On right side marked E149.
It wears a 1917 cylinder for chambering .45 AR/ACP. The original cylinder was milled for .45 ACP.
Ken
http://attachment.php?attachmentid=4...1&d=1609432445
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interesting, I have E487, does anyone know what this is?
for the research list mine is also a 2nd model
number 36554 with 455 roll mark on barrel
converted to 45 colt
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12-16-2022, 09:36 AM
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S/N - 5433
.455 TL 61/2" bbl.
455 760 6 tons (right side bbl.)
EL FAIYUM YI - L.R.D.G. ABBASSIEH CAIRO 1942 (on backstrap)
lanyard ring is beside the s/n
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12-16-2022, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folsom21
S/N - 5433
.455 TL 61/2" bbl.
455 760 6 tons (right side bbl.)
EL FAIYUM YI - L.R.D.G. ABBASSIEH CAIRO 1942 (on backstrap)
lanyard ring is beside the s/n
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Cool, we'd love to see some pictures.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
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12-16-2022, 11:27 AM
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I am new to the Forum but I will try to get some pics up. This revolver is a bit rough and the cylinder has been shaved to accept .45 lc I think. There is some data available on the strap markings and it is interesting, I think this sidearm could tell some stories.
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12-16-2022, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folsom21
S/N - 5433
.455 TL 61/2" bbl.
455 760 6 tons (right side bbl.)
EL FAIYUM YI - L.R.D.G. ABBASSIEH CAIRO 1942 (on backstrap)
lanyard ring is beside the s/n
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Congrats and thanks. It's a Type 2 TL shipped Jan 1915.
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Jim
S&WCA #819
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12-16-2022, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22hipower
Cool, we'd love to see some pictures.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
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Not only yes, but HELL YES!!!
Kevin
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02-18-2023, 04:14 PM
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Serial number 3604, no caliber markings on barrel, in .455 Webley. Shipped 30 Dec 1914 to Union Metallic Cartridge Co, purchasing agent for the British government.
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02-19-2023, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
Results so far. A small sample but trends are already beginning to show up. Those not caliber marked shown as such in caps:
Cal stamping of British contract and commercial .455s categorized by the following production models:
0. "Rare misc. early commercial production 44 TL 1st models chambered in .455."
Including a pre Brit Contract special order TL subset of 25 standard .44 1st Model TLs in the .44 serial # range chambered in .455 with 5 barrels, shipped Nov. 1, 1912. Thx to Jim Fisher for bringing these to our attention and sharing documentation! See #5751 below.
A Scarce 5 Inch Triple lock shipped to Canada in April of 1915
5642 NOT CAL STAMPED shipped April 1915
5724 - NOT CAL STAMPED 455 shipped April 28,1915, from Canada
5751 - cal is 455 Eley, shipped in 1912 sold in a commercial order of 25, 5 guns to H. Robitsek, Canada
5788 - NOT CAL STAMPED; Canadian 6 1/2 barrel shipped June 4, 1915 in an order of 5 to Hurd & Co.
1. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock, 812 (military & commercially sold) in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455.
2. 455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock #1 thru #5461.
358 NOT CAL MARKED
1203 NOT CAL MARKED
2147 - NOT CAL STAMPED, serial # not drilled thru for Lanyard, from Canada
3147 - stamped on right hand side of barrel
3863 NOT CAL STAMPED
4324 - NOT CAL STAMPED
5105 - NOT CAL STAMPED
3. A. 455 Hand Ejector-2nd Model #5462 thru 74755.
7766 NO CAL STAMP. Alan [murphydog]
10663 - NO CAL MARKING, shipped to Winch for ammo testing
12448 NO CAL MARK on barrel
12508 NO FACTORY CAL MARK, converted to45 ACP/RR, stamped ".45AP"
15543 NO CAL MARK
17320 - marked 455 left side
26007 NO CAL STAMP
29515 - left side barrel is marked SMITH & WESSON .455., shipped in December of 1915
29954 - stamped 455, British acceptance stamps and, I think, Australian unit stamp.
31138 stamped left hand side
31739 - marked 455 left side
35711 - roll marked .455 on L side of bbl, shipped on Jan 6, 1916
37923 - roll marked on left side of barrel
40096 - marked .455
43067 - marked .455. on left side of the barrel
45484 - roll marked on left side of barrel
52908 - shipped April 1916 455 STAMPED. All three went to England.
53468 - marked .455 on LS of barrel.
56603 - marked .455 left side
57387 - NO MARKINGS shipped to Rem for Great Britain
58547 - 455 stamped. shipped May 1916
59045 - 455 stamped. shipped May 1916
61801 NOT CAL MARKED
62941 - Marked 455 LHS
63279 - Smith and Wesson .455. on left side
66573 - marked SMITH & WESSON .455.
66860 - 455 marking, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Dec 1917
67691 - stamped .455 (this gun was one of the guns shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in December 1917)
73778 - original .455. rollmark left side
3. B. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12 14,XXX range.
12493 - Left side of barrel marked Smith & Wesson 455
12618 - stamped .455 (British proofs)
12742 stamped, likely one of the 691 "Spare Parts" TL's produced in 1916 and possibly one of 325 shipped to Shapleigh Hardware on December 29, 1917.
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Hondo44,
Can you post all results you have to date in a new post to update this thread?
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02-19-2023, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcvs
Hondo44,
Can you post all results you have to date in a new post to update this thread?
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I believe post 223 on page 5 of this thread is the most current update.
Granted an odd place fir it but there it is. I wiuld like the tabulation to be in post 1, much easier to find.
Kevin
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02-19-2023, 06:10 PM
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Hi Kevin, great idea. Ill update and post the most current updates in first post from now on!
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Jim
S&WCA #819
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