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  #51  
Old 07-12-2017, 11:28 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom 3Persons View Post
Serial number of this TL is 2147.
British proofs and Broad Arrow.
Not .45 long Colt.
Located it in Canada.
Serial number is not drilled though for the Lanayrd ring, it is beside it.
No caliber stamps on either side of the barrel.
I donít know if it is:
1. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock, 812 in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455.
or if it is
2. 455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock #1 thru #5461.
Great survey.
thanks
Tom
Tom,

It is not listed in Neal and Jinks pg. 203-205 as one of the 812 .44 1st Models converted to 455. Therefore it is a category 2. TL.

Thank you,
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  #52  
Old 07-13-2017, 07:48 AM
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Jim,

The difference between mine and Jim Fisher's is mine has the Canadian military C broad arrow. I sprung for a letter and will post again when it comes in.

Bob
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:59 PM
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I have a triple lock, unfortunately converted to .45 Colt, Serial number 5642. It has no caliber marking on the barrel.

Thanks,

Bill




Not bad to be 100 years old.

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Old 07-13-2017, 10:05 PM
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2nd Model SN 12508 had no factory caliber marking and was stamped ".45AP" by whoever did the conversion to .45 ACP/AR. It is no longer in my possession.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:52 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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Originally Posted by WCCPHD View Post
I have a triple lock, unfortunately converted to .45 Colt, Serial number 5642. It has no caliber marking on the barrel.

Thanks,

Bill




Not bad to be 100 years old.

Hi Bill,

That's a gorgeous TL.

Appears to be a commercial model since I don't see a single Brit or Canadian stamping, unless I've missed something.

Is the serial # missing from the rear face of the cyl or the chamber mouths recessed leading to your belief it is a conversion to 45 Colt?
Because if neither of these are in evidence, it begs for a letter; could be a factory 45 Colt TL and quite rare.

It certainly has a lower front sight than the standard 455 which is higher than factory 44s and 45 Colts.
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  #56  
Old 07-14-2017, 06:59 AM
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Jim,

It does have British stamps, but not government owned marks. It began life as a .455 and had the cylinder face shaved to make it a .45 Colt.

I will include some other photos that show the marks and the cylinder face.

I have since found a replacement top screw and removed the hideous "wondersight."








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Old 07-14-2017, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCCPHD View Post
Jim,

It does have British stamps, but not government owned marks. It began life as a .455 and had the cylinder face shaved to make it a .45 Colt.

I will include some other photos that show the marks and the cylinder face.

I have since found a replacement top screw and removed the hideous "wondersight."
Ok, I see them now, very nice and discreet.

Oh yeah, great improvement w/o the hideous tacked on sight, albeit some use those and will pay for them.

Appears to be a commercial that entered GB thru civilian channels. It might be one commercially shipped to Wilkinson Sword in England. Or an American distributor and then exported. Sure doesn't look like it went to war. Maybe an officer's purchase since they had to supply their own sidearm.

The serial # however doesn't seem to correspond to any commercial shipments in the books. So a letter would reveal its provenance and be extremely interesting! Letters are currently only taking about 2 weeks.
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  #58  
Old 07-14-2017, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCCPHD View Post
I have a triple lock, unfortunately converted to .45 Colt, Serial number 5642. It has no caliber marking on the barrel.

Thanks,

Bill




Not bad to be 100 years old.

Bill,

Do you know anything about the rear sight on your gun? My guess is that it is aftermarket but period. I haven't seen this on a Triple Lock before.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:57 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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Originally Posted by red9 View Post
Jim,

The difference between mine and Jim Fisher's is mine has the Canadian military C broad arrow. I sprung for a letter and will post again when it comes in.

Bob
Bob,

Excellent! That should be a very interesting letter!
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  #60  
Old 07-15-2017, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mrcvs View Post
Bill,

Do you know anything about the rear sight on your gun? My guess is that it is aftermarket but period. I haven't seen this on a Triple Lock before.
Its called a "Wondersight." An add on sight that attaches to the frame by removing the "fifth" screw. I found a replacement screw and removed it. I believe they may still be manufactured. They are sometimes available on ebay.
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  #61  
Old 07-15-2017, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Ok, I see them now, very nice and discreet.
.......
Appears to be a commercial that entered GB thru civilian channels. It might be one commercially shipped to Wilkinson Sword in England. Or an American distributor and then exported. Sure doesn't look like it went to war. Maybe an officer's purchase since they had to supply their own sidearm.
......
This gun certainly did not formally enter military service, as the required military proofs and acceptance marks are not present. I only see the London proofhouse's view mark (crown over V) and on the barrel the proof mark (crown over GP, a bit mis-struck). As mentioned, an officer's private purchase is always a possibility.
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  #62  
Old 07-16-2017, 02:16 AM
AlanDavid AlanDavid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
This gun certainly did not formally enter military service, as the required military proofs and acceptance marks are not present. I only see the London proofhouse's view mark (crown over V) and on the barrel the proof mark (crown over GP, a bit mis-struck). As mentioned, an officer's private purchase is always a possibility.
The U.K. agent for Smith and Wesson at this time was Chas Osborne & Co, Gunmaker. He had a factory in Birmingham and a retail shop in London. He was friends with Mr Wesson so that's how he became the agent for S&W in the United Kingdom. Chas Osborne went out of business around 1928. S&W were approached by Le Perssone & Co of 99 Cannon Street , London (a wholesaling and agency firm) to become there UK agent but were only prepared to give S&W one or two pages in their catalogue, so S&W said , no thanks. A. G. Parker which went on to become Parker Hale were appointed as the sole UK agents for S&W and remained so up to at least the 1970's.
This being the case I have never understood why Wilkinson Sword Co purchased the surplus 123 .455 revolvers in October 1914. Perhaps Chas Osborne turned the offer down and Wilkinson's picked them up by default?
Unfortunately, the Chas Osborne & Co records appear to be lost, I have put a bit of effort into trying to locate them, but the consensus is they no longer exist - pity.
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  #63  
Old 07-19-2017, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Ok, I see them now, very nice and discreet.

Oh yeah, great improvement w/o the hideous tacked on sight, albeit some use those and will pay for them.

Appears to be a commercial that entered GB thru civilian channels. It might be one commercially shipped to Wilkinson Sword in England. Or an American distributor and then exported. Sure doesn't look like it went to war. Maybe an officer's purchase since they had to supply their own sidearm.

The serial # however doesn't seem to correspond to any commercial shipments in the books. So a letter would reveal its provenance and be extremely interesting! Letters are currently only taking about 2 weeks.
I asked for a ship date from Roy Jinks and he replied today:

"Bill, .455 H.E. First Model serial 5642 is one of the rare commercial shipments. It was shipped in April 1915. I hope that this helps. Roy "

You were correct it was a commercial shipment.

I am curious if this adds to the collectibility of the gun, particularly since it was modified to .45 Colt.

Bill
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  #64  
Old 07-19-2017, 09:04 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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Bill,

Thank you (and thank you Roy). The April 1915 ship date for 5642 gives us one more data point.

The dilemma: What we still don't know is which category 455 #5624 is from?

A Category 1. "44 1st Model TL" in the 44 serial range converted to 455 at the factory per Neil & Jinks identifies the 146 commercials from this category by serial #s and they shipped Oct I, 1914 and Jan I 1918. 5624 is not one of those numbers.

A category 2. "455 1st model TL" in the British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15 does not include 5624 which is too high for that range.

A category 3.A. "455 2nd model" in the range of 5624 is not a TL, unless one TL slipped thru with 2nd Model serial #. These shipped 1915 to 1917.

A category 3.B. 691 TLs only known to be assembled from April to Oct of 1916 in the 12 - 14,XXX serial range, and way too high for 5624. 345 sold commercially.

So once again we look to category 0. "Rare misc. early individually produced commercial 44 TL 1st models chambered in .455." as the most likely category of production for 5624. Perhaps an over-run from the special order of 25 5" barreled 455 TLs identified by Jim Fisher, and also numbered in the 44 Spl TL serial range, but with a standard 6 1/2" barrel. Or just an individually ordered 455.
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  #65  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Bill,

Thank you (and thank you Roy). The April 1915 ship date for 5642 gives us one more data point.

The dilemma: What we still don't know is which category 455 #5624 is from?

A Category 1. "44 1st Model TL" in the 44 serial range converted to 455 at the factory per Neil & Jinks identifies the 146 commercials from this category by serial #s and they shipped Oct I, 1914 and Jan I 1918. 5624 is not one of those numbers.

A category 2. "455 1st model TL" in the British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15 does not include 5624 which is too high for that range.

A category 3.A. "455 2nd model" in the range of 5624 is not a TL, unless one TL slipped thru with 2nd Model serial #. These shipped 1915 to 1917.

A category 3.B. 691 TLs only known to be assembled from April to Oct of 1916 in the 12 - 14,XXX serial range, and way too high for 5624. 345 sold commercially.

So once again we look to category 0. "Rare misc. early individually produced commercial 44 TL 1st models chambered in .455." as the most likely category of production for 5624. Perhaps an over-run from the special order of 25 5" barreled 455 TLs identified by Jim Fisher, and also numbered in the 44 Spl TL serial range, but with a standard 6 1/2" barrel. Or just an individually ordered 455.
Thanks Jim,

I believe a letter is in order here.

Bill
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  #66  
Old 07-20-2017, 12:29 PM
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I have TL #1549, no caliber markings
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Old Yesterday, 11:03 AM
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I've really been enjoying this thread Hondo, all this HE Mk II talk is making me think, maybe I need another one??
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