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  #101  
Old 08-26-2017, 08:20 PM
Stumpnov Stumpnov is offline
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Default Candian 455

I have a 455 Mkii that was delivered to the Canadians in WW1, been treated a little rough but still in original configuration. It came with 1917 grips, which I have left on due to lack of originals and not knowing the history. Any help in tracking down the unit history would be appreciated.
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  #102  
Old 09-01-2017, 09:49 AM
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Just in case you haven't picked up the details on my TL:

1st Model (group 2) serial 718, (probably in first shipment from Remington to England in 1914). All original and in excellent condition except for the owners name engraved on left side.
It went home to Australia with the original owner after the war, so no extraneous commercial stampings. No markings on side of barrel. (Just the standard stuff on the top.)

Let me know if you need anything else......
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  #103  
Old 09-02-2017, 12:22 AM
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Thank you Dean!

I still don't have a single entry in Group 1; the first 666 military guns or the 146 commercials. I've seen a few on this forum. I guess I'll have to search and scan old threads.
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  #104  
Old 09-02-2017, 07:15 AM
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Jim,

I commend your effort to catalog these models. Let me chime in with two that I own.

The first it a Triple Lock, s/n 12787.



This revolver is unaltered in any way. As you can see, the left side of the barrel is marked:

SMITH & WESSON .455.

It is equipped with a butt swivel, which letters original to the gun. The serial number is to the side.



Here's how it letters:



So it is in your category 3.B. "44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock: 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12,XXX range."

************************************
************************************


Next is my Second Model .455. It bears s/n 69234 and appears to have been sold commercially. It remiains unaltered in any way and has no martial markings or British proofs at all. Roy reports that it shipped December 1917, which along with its commercial characteristics seems to be a dead giveaway that it was in the large shipement to Shapleigh Hardware.





The left side of the barrel is marked:

SMITH & WESSON .455.

The right side of the barrel has no roll mark.

It is equipped with a butt swivel, which appears to be original to the gun. The serial number is to the side.



I have not lettered this revolver.

I displayed a lot of images of this revolver at this thread: S&W .455 Mk. II Hand Ejector 2nd Model #69234


Curl
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  #105  
Old 09-02-2017, 10:16 AM
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Curl,

Two stunningly beautiful examples!

Thank you!
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  #106  
Old 09-02-2017, 06:51 PM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Thank you Dean!

I still don't have a single entry in Group 1; the first 666 military guns or the 146 commercials. I've seen a few on this forum. I guess I'll have to search and scan old threads.
Here is one of the 666, serial no. 8493
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:00 PM
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Thank you Franky.

Another real stunner, this one looks like 100% and un-refinished!

Our first group 1. serial # on the known # list of the first 666 for the military in several shipments across the pond.

But does not appear to have any martial stampings, is that correct?

If so we're making new history here!
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  #108  
Old 09-02-2017, 10:27 PM
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Does 8493 have any calbre markings on the barrel ?

I am unable to see any in the photo.

Regards


AlanD
Sydney
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  #109  
Old 09-02-2017, 10:48 PM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Thank you Franky.

Another real stunner, this one looks like 100% and un-refinished!

Our first group 1. serial # on the known # list of the first 666 for the military in several shipments across the pond.

But does not appear to have any martial stampings, is that correct?

If so we're making new history here!
Jim, this gun has seen very little use but does have some finish issues as the photo below shows. Tried everything but couldn't clean it up.
It has crossed pennants on what the British call the breech ring and back of the cylinder plus the usual marks on left of the frame at top of the blackstrap, but no other military markings.

Frank.
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:17 PM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Here's a 2nd Model Royal Flying Corp revolver embellished by Alexander Henry and Co. Of Edinburgh, Scotland, for a Major J. Johnson who may have been Canadian. It bears the palindromic serial no. 47474. Extra cylinder in .45 Colt.
Barrel marking is obvious. Other side of topstrap bears the inscription, "For King and Country."
I'm chasing up details on more guns and will post in the next day or so.

Frank.
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  #111  
Old 09-02-2017, 11:33 PM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanDavid View Post
Does 8493 have any calbre markings on the barrel ?

I am unable to see any in the photo.

Regards


AlanD
Sydney
Alan, no calibre markings on the barrel.
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  #112  
Old 09-03-2017, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankynohankypanky View Post
Jim, this gun has seen very little use but does have some finish issues as the photo below shows. Tried everything but couldn't clean it up.
It has crossed pennants on what the British call the breech ring and back of the cylinder plus the usual marks on left of the frame at top of the blackstrap, but no other military markings.

Frank.
It looks like some chemical reaction. Above the 3rd lock cam plate it looks like old adhesive adhering to the surface. But I doubt it's on the surface, more likely the bluing is actually etched, right?

Lower down it appears the same thing has faded the bluing, but to a much lesser degree than the upper spot. It's a mystery to me how the damage is so localized.

Above the bad spot, the frame around the barrel threads sticks out much farther and yet, undamaged. Like something was adhered to the frame on that square spot like a shelf # tag, or label (or ?) glued on. And the adhesive reacted with the blue and metal underneath. And the lower spot was just from being in proximity to the square spot and whatever was stuck to it. As if the gun was stored in a rack upside down and volatile fumes emanated upwards from the square spot to fade the blue on the lower frame.

Did it have any rust on the square spot before cleaning?

If it was in front of me, I'd study the damage with my 80 x glass.


If it is something on the surface of the bluing:

Have you tried Goo Gone? Acetone?
Could it be remnants of solder as if something was attached there with a poor solder job ('cold joint')?

All in all, still a beautiful gun.
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  #113  
Old 09-03-2017, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankynohankypanky View Post
Here's a 2nd Model Royal Flying Corp revolver embellished by Alexander Henry and Co. Of Edinburgh, Scotland, for a Major J. Johnson who may have been Canadian. It bears the palindromic serial no. 47474. Extra cylinder in .45 Colt.
Barrel marking is obvious. Other side of topstrap bears the inscription, "For King and Country."
I'm chasing up details on more guns and will post in the next day or so.

Frank.
Dang, what a cool combination! Another gorgeous example that does not look refinished in any way. Crisp edges, no purple parts, and the trigger rebound slide pin is still domed like originally on all pre war guns.

Do I have the serial # for the project list?

The 45 Colt marking on the cyl is very professional looking as is the inscription on top strap. Many of these overseas guns were worked on by fine shotgun makers. Is that who Alexander Henry and Co. is?

Is the 45 Colt Cyl serial #d to the gun like the 455 cyl?
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  #114  
Old 09-07-2017, 01:57 AM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Jim, a few more for your database;

1st Models;

#5719; "Smith & Wesson .455". A gorgeous Commercial but not listed anywhere as such (no letter). Shipped May 1915. Birmingham proofs very neatly applied to each cylinder flute and to the barrel.
#8493; No caliber markings. See post 106 above.
#12847; "Smith & Wesson .455". Shipped Dec. 1917, probably to Shapleigh Hardware. Roy Jinks advised me this would letter as chambered for .455 Colt.
#15015; "Smith & Wesson .455".

2nd Models;

#15877 and #15980 are marked "Smith & Wesson".
Following are marked "Smith & Wesson .455", #'s 68103, 39155, 39645, 32061 and 47474 (see post above re 47474).
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  #115  
Old 09-07-2017, 02:39 AM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Dang, what a cool combination! Another gorgeous example that does not look refinished in any way. Crisp edges, no purple parts, and the trigger rebound slide pin is still domed like originally on all pre war guns.

Do I have the serial # for the project list?

The 45 Colt marking on the cyl is very professional looking as is the inscription on top strap. Many of these overseas guns were worked on by fine shotgun makers. Is that who Alexander Henry and Co. is?

Is the 45 Colt Cyl serial #d to the gun like the 455 cyl?
Jim, I'm sure this gun was refinished by Alex. Henry.
Alexander Henry was amongst the best of the British gunmakers and mainly known for their rifles, both singles and doubles. This revolver was a military shipment and the letter says nothing about the extras. I would think the embellishment was done after the war.
The cylinders are both numbered alike and the .45 Colt cylinder is .010" shorter with the chambers counterbored for the thicker rim.
The Latin expression "Servabo Fidem" means "I Will Keep the Faith".
Frank.
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  #116  
Old 09-07-2017, 02:53 AM
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Frank,

All entered. Thanks very much!

#47474 is just an awesomely unique convertible!

You have the distinction of having at least one 455 example in each of 3 categories of the database: 1., 3A, & 3B.
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Old 09-07-2017, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankynohankypanky View Post
Jim, a few more for your database;

1st Models;

#5719; "Smith & Wesson .455". A gorgeous Commercial but not listed anywhere as such (no letter). Shipped May 1915. Birmingham proofs very neatly applied to each cylinder flute and to the barrel.
#8493; No caliber markings. See post 106 above.
#12847; "Smith & Wesson .455". Shipped Dec. 1917, probably to Shapleigh Hardware. Roy Jinks advised me this would letter as chambered for .455 Colt.
#15015; "Smith & Wesson .455".

2nd Models;

#15877 and #15980 are marked "Smith & Wesson".
Following are marked "Smith & Wesson .455", #'s 68103, 39155, 39645, 32061 and 47474 (see post above re 47474).
WOW. That is quite a bunch of 455s. Congratulations on your collection of them.
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  #118  
Old 09-10-2017, 02:10 AM
AlanDavid AlanDavid is offline
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Default Wilkinson Sword Co

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The U.K. agent for Smith and Wesson at this time was Chas Osborne & Co, Gunmaker. He had a factory in Birmingham and a retail shop in London. He was friends with Mr Wesson so that's how he became the agent for S&W in the United Kingdom. Chas Osborne went out of business around 1928. S&W were approached by Le Perssone & Co of 99 Cannon Street , London (a wholesaling and agency firm) to become there UK agent but were only prepared to give S&W one or two pages in their catalogue, so S&W said , no thanks. A. G. Parker which went on to become Parker Hale were appointed as the sole UK agents for S&W and remained so up to at least the 1970's.
This being the case I have never understood why Wilkinson Sword Co purchased the surplus 123 .455 revolvers in October 1914. Perhaps Chas Osborne turned the offer down and Wilkinson's picked them up by default?
Unfortunately, the Chas Osborne & Co records appear to be lost, I have put a bit of effort into trying to locate them, but the consensus is they no longer exist - pity.
Regards
AlanD
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Further to my previous post. Just found a comment in the British trade newspaper 'Arms & Explosives' for January 1915, where Wilkinson Sword Company announce they 'have taken over the wholesale agency for Smith and Wesson revolvers and pistols in this country.' So that ties in with the purchase of 123 revolvers that when to them in October 1914. Mystery solved.
Just need to establish the time frame for Parker Hale Ltd taking over from Wilkinson Sword Co.
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AlanD
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  #119  
Old 09-10-2017, 03:29 AM
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Wilkinson Sword also had a close relationship with Webley, who made special models for them. The Models of Wilkinson-Webleys of 1905 and 1911 were probably the best, most practical Webley revolvers made. They had bright blue finishes and honed actions and I think differed from the later MK VI in having a button to push to remove the cylinder for cleaning. Grips were checkered walnut with a gold medallion for an owner's initials.

Because new officers bought swords there, a man could get his revolver, too, in one stop. It no doubt worked out well for Wilkinson.

In WW II, Wilkinson was the original maker of the famous Fairbairn-Sykes dagger. Ian Fleming, who owned one, a First Model, mentioned that in a James Bond book, I think, "Live and Let Die." I believe he also had a Randall knife, maybe a Model 2, but he never gave the model or brand.

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Old 09-10-2017, 12:54 PM
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Parenthetically, on a brief side note- I visited the Wilkinson establishment in London in 1975, to drop off a sword for repair.
The showroom was incredible.
While there, they assembled an FS dagger for me while I waited.
I still have it.
Denis
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  #121  
Old 09-10-2017, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankynohankypanky View Post
Jim, a few more for your database;

1st Models;

#5719; "Smith & Wesson .455". A gorgeous Commercial but not listed anywhere as such (no letter). Shipped May 1915. Birmingham proofs very neatly applied to each cylinder flute and to the barrel.
#8493; No caliber markings. See post 106 above.
#12847; "Smith & Wesson .455". Shipped Dec. 1917, probably to Shapleigh Hardware. Roy Jinks advised me this would letter as chambered for .455 Colt.
#15015; "Smith & Wesson .455".

2nd Models;

#15877 and #15980 are marked "Smith & Wesson".
Following are marked "Smith & Wesson .455", #'s 68103, 39155, 39645, 32061 and 47474 (see post above re 47474).


Here is ammo you need for your 455 Colt .

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Old 09-10-2017, 09:00 PM
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No third lock, no shroud. SN 44519 left side of Barrel "Smith & Wesson .455." period in front and following the numerals. Right side of barrel, no markings. Not many british markings. Crossed pennants left frontside of frame, small logo right side of frame. Only a couple of small stamps, one right side over front of trigger guard. One on left side over the stock medallion too vague to see, over II. Two line adress top of barrel, crossed pennants rear of cylinder. Hope this adds to your data.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpris View Post
Parenthetically, on a brief side note- I visited the Wilkinson establishment in London in 1975, to drop off a sword for repair.
The showroom was incredible.
While there, they assembled an FS dagger for me while I waited.
I still have it.
Denis
Denis-

Which model of Fairbairn? Were they by then making just a Third Model?

Believe it or not, when in jr. HS, I bought a couple for $2.98 each. I had no idea that prices for these commando knives would escalate as they have.

I much prefer the earlier models, which have longer handles.

Which model of sword do/did you have? I have one of John Wilkinson-Latham's sword books and know British military swords pretty well. I like the feel of the infantry officer's Model of 1897, but find the Model of 1908 (1912, for officers pattern) cavalry sword a bit long, unless mounted. I feel sure this sword substantially influenced G.S. Patton's sword design.

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Old 09-21-2017, 04:02 PM
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Default Mark II HE SN 15515

Not an expert so lots of (?).

Left side of 6 1/2 inch Barrel left to right : 45 AR (45 AR hand stamped) SMITH & WESSON (with the W located above the front of the ejector rod) crown over circled BV, crown over circled BP, crown over circled NP.
Top of Barrel: two line standard ending in FEB 6,06.
Right side of barrel: nothing
Bottom of barrel in three step flat above ejector rod: P or R (poorly stamped), a quarter inch space and then serial number stamped in small numbers which appears factory.
Left side of front of frame, directly aft of barrel, L to R: Poorly stamped "NOT ENGLISH MADE" (MAKE?)with crown over circled BV underneath and crossed pennants to the right of BV and underneath. Another thread called the cross pennants a Remington agent acceptance for British service mark (?)
Left side rear of frame on hump from top to bottom: Broad Arrow, Crown, G7, E, II which from other threads is the British mark for acceptance for service and Mark II for cartridge (?)

Left side rear of frame just in front of stock escutcheon in very small letters and figures: Crossed swords forming an X, with crown (? poorly stamped) in top apex, D in left apex, B in right apex, and 2 in bottom apex. Research on net indicates this is 1953 Birmingham inspectors mark.

Finish is some kind of Parkerizing? Looks like finish on M-1 rifle.

Right side of frame has S&W trade mark logo.
Bottom of frame has SN to left of lanyard ring, as read.

Cylinder has Crown over circled letters in between the cylinder bolt notches to the right of the cylinder scallops, in the order BV, NP,BP and then repeated. Oriented same as SMITH & WESSON on barrel as you would read them.

There are no big arrowheads meeting at the points for released from service.

Could this revolver have been converted to 45 AR at Birmingham (?)

Slugged bore and approx. .455. Bore is pristine which made me think that it was a replacement, but dimensions and SN on barrel indicates original barrel.

Cylinder and extractor star have been shaved for AR. No SN on back of cylinder. Measured chamber mouths and all about .457

Note that AR and ACP brass fired in chambers bulge and some split (Low powered loads such as 3.8 BE and 4.0 231 with 180 gr), and cylinder locks up and extraction is difficult. Have solved this problem using .45 Cowboy Special brass from Starline with TMK moon clips. Shoots 4 grains of Trail Boss and 200 grain .452 LSWC to same point of aim and same group as 220 grain .456 LRN. Will try .454 250 gr LRN when they arrive to see if the low groups will rise a bit. Only about 3 inches low at 20 yards, and can still hit the plate at Desert Sportsmans military matches.

Safety Note: From all the reading I have done about these revolvers, it is unwise to shoot ACP full loads even though the cartridges will chamber with moon clips. 45 AR are purported on several websites to be a lower intensity than ACP even with factory loads and maybe we can infer that the gents who did the conversion meant what they said by specifying AR on the barrel marking.

Hope this makes it to the forum. Later,
Charlie
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:03 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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Hi Charlie, welcome to the forum.

Remington did not stamp the guns as far as I recall. They were just a go-between and handled acquisition of firearms for the British.

The poorly stamped P or R is actually a B for having an original blue finish when it left the factory. The parkerizing is a re-finish.

And it's Not English Make.

The II is for Mark II as you said but it refers to the gun rather than the cartridge.

Almost certainly converted to 45 Auto Rim in this country. The cartridge wasn't produced until after the war. And you're correct, it's stamped 45 AR because it is loaded in the 14,000 pressure range same as the 455. ACP is loaded to 19,000 pressure because it's designed to reliably operate the 1911 slide. The 1917 revolver cyls were heat treated specifically for the ACP. The 455 revolver cyls were not. So that was a wise gunsmith that did the conversion. We only see them stamped AR occasionally.

You undoubtedly know your 455 hand ejector is a 2nd Model, in the 3.A. group above.

Thank you for sharing your info.
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Old 09-22-2017, 09:18 PM
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Default Thanks Hondo

Good info H.

Could you espouse on the cylinder marks? On line research indicates that this cylinder proofing as a requirement was post 1924.

Also the 1953 Birmingham inspector mark. I see the 2 means it was the second guy in seniority.

Thanks,
C
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:59 PM
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Glad you asked, I meant to include these two thread links for you:

Identify Hand Ejector Birmingham Marks - in the S&W Hand Ejectors:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...-new-post.html

Google images and definitions of British marks:
british proof marks - Bing images
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Old 09-23-2017, 02:10 AM
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TS,
Sorry, have not been watching this.
Not to derail unduly, but I was there to leave a Prince Of Wales commem for repair.
I don't know which version of the Fairbairn this'd technically be, it's highly polished & blued, and not sharpened.

I also brought back a British army infantry officer's dress sword, made by Wilkinson.
Denis
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:07 AM
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Default Compiling Info on Second model HE 1915

Trying to put the info on this thread and "Identify Hand Ejector Birmingham Marks " of Feb 2017, into a comprehensive chronology for my .455 Mark II.

My pistol described above, made in 1915 with no caliber markings on the barrel and only the S&W logo and Serial Numbers went to the Remington agent and then to GB where it received the accepted for military service markings on the frame hump, left side, and then pressed into service. It fought WWI and WWII with distinction (at least with good owners who took care of the bore).

Sometime later, it received a Birmingham inspectors mark for 1953.

Sometime later, (minutes to years) it received a bunch of proof marks on the barrel, frame, and cylinder because it was released from service to be sold commercially. These marks are put on for release to commercial sales so they would have occurred after an inspection by Birmingham, cause why would Birmingham have handled the weapon once it had been released?

But it did not get caliber stamped or get a release from service set of arrowheads, as it was supposed to.

Sometime later, it was machined for and hand barrel stamped for 45AR in the USA.

Somewhere/sometime it got parkerized.

Is it possible that the pistol was stored after WWI and parkerized for WWII ?

Interesting stuff. Does Birmingham keep records like Smith and Wesson? Couple of wars might have left them caring little about fineries of record keeping when it comes to stamping revolvers.

Later, Charlie
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:42 PM
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ser # 3424-shipped december 23rd 2014 to rem-umc. everything re-blued except lock pins, hammer and trigger.

bbl ser # 10001, with "45 COLT" stamped on right side. all caps, no dots or periods. the usual patent lines on top. there are no signs of caliber stampings on left side, or removal of same. front sight blade has been regulated for 100 yds [?meters?] with OEM 45LC pressures. birmingham-london crown over "V" proofs on bbl, and in line with threaded bbl frame boss proof mark, so new bbl was attached "over there". bbl length is 6 7/16". rifling is excellent. with standard pressure reloads and my old eyes from a rest, shoots about 2" @ 50 feet. but way high from point of aim.

cylinder has been turned on inside of rear face with original cylinder length left on outside edge, raised ring is about 1/16" wide. cyl O.D. is 1.70", length is 1.596". all cyl flutes have crown over V proofs in bottom. cyl bore I.D.all have ghost "second ring" traces well before the end of an exceptionally smooth (re?)reamer finish. have seen famous gunsmith cyl conversions that look like the inside of a corrugated culvert in comparison. about 250-125 in machinist measurements, very well executed job.

trigger has had an over travel stop block silver soldered to the rear. fitted to VERY CLOSE to touching trigger guard when hammer falls. a piece of paper folded over twice [= 4 sheets/ .016"] drags to pull out when cocked.

lower grip frame appears to have lanyard bore filled in, and serial # sanded off. grip panels are identical to my mdl 1926 in configuration, but no S&W logo, or checkering. as a first time exposure to this for me, nearly undetectable square blocks are inlaid on both panels over grip screw, or where same should be. (?)

not your usual veteran....

netex

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Old 09-25-2017, 12:41 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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netex,

Thx for the additional info on your #3424 which indicates it's a Triple Lock, 455 HE - 1st Model, it's a very interesting example.

It having the front sight regulated for 100 yards has resulted in the very high POI at 50 feet as you are aware. It would have shot to point of aim at that range in factory configuration. A previous owner has certainly made changes for their specific needs.

1. Does the barrel have a shroud under the barrel for the Extractor rod? And does it still have a functioning third lock at the front of the yoke? If so, I'm very curious about where a # 10,001 triple Lock barrel in 45 caliber came from!

Triple lock photos:


Photos by Driftwood Johnson


Photos by Driftwood Johnson

2. The cyl was converted to 45 Colt in a very professional manner, still allowing the use of the original 455 cartridges. Does the cyl retain the #3424 serial # matching the gun?

3. Since the serial is removed from the butt, where else on the gun do you find the # 3424?

4. The grips are interesting to say the least and another question is how are they held on the grip frame w/o a center screw?
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Old 09-25-2017, 12:54 AM
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netex,

You should find these SERIAL # LOCATIONS: To confirm all parts are original, one can check for the 6 (or 7, Triple Locks only) matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956 (and a few as much as 3 years later).
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!

1. Gun butt - (or fore strap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt)

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material. (except most post war target grips because individual fitting not required.)

7. TLs only: rear side of middle lock cam plate


ASSEMBLY (factory work) #s: These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ on frame (accompanied with a stamped inspector letter) opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period. Once the gun is shipped, the only use for the assembly is to confirm the three parts it's stamped on are original.
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Old 09-25-2017, 09:22 PM
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Hondo44,

has middle lock. [but ramp/pin boss has been blued] i almost walked past this at a pawn shop because of that...

bbl # from ejector rod housing, valley, first digit almost under front lock pin.

crane # matches frame #.

only one stamped figure on front of extractor star. it appears to be a "3" stamped on what would be in line with the radius of the inner case relief cuts on star. as if a radius was scribed with dividers, and the "3" stamp centered up IN LINE with radius. like the line through an "S" to make $, but a radius line instead. rear of cyl has been turned. would guess star is a replacement part. will get better eyes to help me to look at it later, was a fairly constipated operation trynna hold rod out with one hand, and magnifying glass with other. but methinx, it's a replacement.couldn't unscrew the rod, was too tight. don't wanna booger up the knurling..

grips are definitely not original. would guess they are handmade, as no hole for logo is present, no reduction in width as would be required to sand off checkering. resemble my mdl 1926 grips in basic external contour:

http://www.sixguns.com/BookOfThe44/b...s/image003.jpg

there may be a screw beneath the wood inlays---purely speculation. at some point, they will have to be removed.[that should be fun-not!] will be trying to convince an outfit in germany to make up some replacements. their previous run were dead on period correct new mfgr, but quite $pendy. if they will make another set, these will be removed.

S&W letter included no records of a factory custom shop visit.

will check into removing middle lock plate, not familiar with this from previous revolver work. but with either serial #, not particularly relevant. 10001 was before second model. and they wouldn't have one anyway.

when i first scored this, i contacted Jim Supica when he still worked @ old town station. he wanted too see it, but before i could make arrangements to drive it up to KS from NETEX, i was deployed to the sandbox for the DOD. when i got back he had accepted his job as NRA museum director and could not be privateering anymore due to same.

to bad we can not schedule when ridiculously cheap scores like this happen. [i bought it as a "five screw".] then i could have met the man, himself. but if i could schedule these incidents, it would be a daily thing and i still wouldn't have had time.

netex
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Old 09-25-2017, 10:49 PM
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The middle lock cam plate can be removed easily with one screw;
once the yoke (crane is Colt's) is removed and cyl removed. You can read the yoke serial # on rear surface of yoke arm much easier with cyl off.

The extractor knob unscrews from the extractor rod, RIGHT HAND thread, to remove cyl with rod attached from the yoke. Use a thick piece of leather like an old belt, and vise grips over the leather.

You can read cam plate serial # with gun assembled with at least a 5x glass. But easier once off and then you can use Naval Jelly to remove the blue while it's off. It will leave a grey color that very much matches the original case coloring. Do not polish off the blue.

What's the Yoke and frame "assembly #" with yoke/cyl open?

If I understand correctly:

1. Gun butt - no serial number. So where is serial #3424 stamped?

2. Barrel - serial#10,001

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight. What's this #?

4. Extractor star, backside = #3

5. Cylinder = shaved off, no # on rear face

6. Right stock only, on back; = N/A

7. TLs only: rear side of middle lock cam plate. What is this #?


NOTE: the historical letter will not have any information about returns and work done at the S&W Service Dept. A date under the left stock on toe of grip frame will.

Happy serial # and assembly # hunting.
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:42 AM
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I have a MKII serial # 33764 Smith&Wesson .455. on left side of barrel Crossed flags in front of cylinder also on left side. Just below cylinder release is a mark 3/4 circle with arrow inside
Converted to .45 ACP but no marks stating so.
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Old 09-26-2017, 03:13 AM
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I have a MKII serial # 33764 Smith&Wesson .455. on left side of barrel Crossed flags in front of cylinder also on left side. Just below cylinder release is a mark 3/4 circle with arrow inside
Converted to .45 ACP but no marks stating so.
Thank you!
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
The extractor knob unscrews from the extractor rod, RIGHT HAND thread, to remove cyl with rod attached from the yoke. Use a thick piece of leather like an old belt, and vise grips over the leather.
I use a wooden clothespin with vice grips. You can also clamp the knurled end in a padded bench vice and turn the cylinder. But, put 3 empty cartridge casings in alternate charge holes in the cylinder to support the star/ratchet.
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Old 09-27-2017, 08:29 AM
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Default .455

.455 Mark II Hand Ejector 2nd model # 35711 British proofs. roll marked
.455 Triple Lock # 4050 British proofs with no roll mark
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Old 09-27-2017, 08:59 AM
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Default .455

.455 Triple Lock # 4050 converted to 45lc British proofs with no roll mark.
.455 MKII HE 2nd Model # 35711 converted to 45lc with British proofs. Roll marked
This is my 2nd attempt to reply. Guess the first is lost in cyberspace.
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:44 PM
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Jim,

I don't know if you saw (or bought) this .455 among the TL's just sold from Larry Gaertner's collection. I bid unsuccessfully. I am wondering if the shipping info in Roy's letter should have been South Africa instead of South America.

Smith and Wesson .455 MK. II H... Auctions Online | Proxibid

Bob
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Old 09-27-2017, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
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.455 Triple Lock # 4050 converted to 45lc British proofs with no roll mark.
.455 MKII HE 2nd Model # 35711 converted to 45lc with British proofs. Roll marked
This is my 2nd attempt to reply. Guess the first is lost in cyberspace.
How long have you had the triple lock #4050 If you don't mind me asking?
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Old 09-28-2017, 02:04 AM
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.455 Mark II Hand Ejector 2nd model # 35711 British proofs. roll marked
.455 Triple Lock # 4050 British proofs with no roll mark
THANK YOU!
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Old 09-28-2017, 02:20 AM
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Jim,

I don't know if you saw (or bought) this .455 among the TL's just sold from Larry Gaertner's collection. I bid unsuccessfully. I am wondering if the shipping info in Roy's letter should have been South Africa instead of South America.

Smith and Wesson .455 MK. II H... Auctions Online | Proxibid

Bob
Hi Bob,

No didn't buy that one. Could very well be a misprint or copied from the letter which may have had a typo. Although many 455s were shipped commercially and could have gone all over the world. Only to be eventually found and purchased by an officer, all of whom had to supply their own sidearm.
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Old 09-28-2017, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rjmfarms View Post
.455 Triple Lock # 4050 converted to 45lc British proofs with no roll mark.
.455 MKII HE 2nd Model # 35711 converted to 45lc with British proofs. Roll marked
This is my 2nd attempt to reply. Guess the first is lost in cyberspace.
First post came thru 30 minutes earlier. Sometimes after clicking the 'Submit' button the page must be refreshed before the post will show.

Thank you!
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Old 09-28-2017, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumpnov View Post
I have a 455 Mkii that was delivered to the Canadians in WW1, been treated a little rough but still in original configuration. It came with 1917 grips, which I have left on due to lack of originals and not knowing the history. Any help in tracking down the unit history would be appreciated.
Stump

profile
Canadian markings
Unit Markings
Butt
Thank you for your submittal. I could not see the entire serial # on the butt. Looks like 470?0. Can you please confirm?
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:08 AM
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I thought it time to re-post the list as of today for everyone to see since it's grown quite a bit thanks to everyone's assistance.

Cal stamping of British contract and commercial .455s categorized by the following production models:

0. "Rare misc. early commercial production 44 TL 1st Models chambered in .455."
Including a pre Brit Contract special order TL subset of 25 standard .44 1st Model TLs in the .44 serial # range chambered in .45 Eley (per letter) with 5” barrels, shipped Nov. 1, 1912. Thx to Jim Fisher for bringing these to our attention and sharing documentation! See #5751 below.
A Scarce 5 Inch Triple lock shipped to Canada in April of 1915

5642 – NO CTG ROLLMARK shipped April 1915
5724 - NO CTG ROLLMARK 455 single gun shipment April 28,1915, from Canada
5751 - Caliber is 45 Eley, shipped in 1912 in a commercial order of 25, 5” guns to H. Robitsek, Canada
5788 - NO CTG ROLLMARK, Canadian 6 1/2” barrel shipped June 4, 1915 in an order of 5 to Hurd & Co.
7827 - NO CTG ROLLMARK, in Germany


1. “44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock”, 812 (666 military & 146 commercially sold) in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455. Supposedly only marked Smith & Wesson with no cartridge marking.

6919 - NO BARREL ROLLMARK, neither Smith & Wesson nor CTG, shipped Oct. 21, 1914
8493 - NO CTG ROLLMARK, minimal military stampings but one of the 666, almost like NIB


2. “455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock” #1 thru #5461.

358 – NO CTG ROLLMARK, shipped in October 1914
718 - NO CTG ROLLMARK, likely in first shipment from Remington to England in 1914). All original
930 – NO CTG ROLLMARK, cylinder measures 1 5/8"
1911 – NO CTG ROLLMARK, not even Smith & Wesson.
1203 – NO CTG ROLLMARK
1549 – NO CTG ROLLMARK 2013 – NO CTG ROLLMARK 2147 - NO CTG ROLLMARK, serial # not drilled thru for Lanyard, from Canada
2373 - NO CTG ROLLMARK from Switzerland, in Germany
3147 - stamped on right hand side of barrel
3424 – has barrel # 10,001 and stamped 45 COLT, shipped on December, 23, 1914, butt # removed
3628 - NO CTG ROLLMARK converted to .45LC (recessed conversion)
3699 – NO CTG ROLLMARK, orig .455 configuration. x-pennants, in & out broad arrows
3863 – NO CTG ROLLMARK
3932 - NO CTG ROLLMARK
4050 – NO ROLL MARK, British proofs, 45 Colt conv.
4172 - NO CTG ROLLMARK military shipped in 1918
4324 – NO CTG ROLLMARK
4534 - NO CTG ROLLMARK in Germany
5105 - NO CTG ROLLMARK
5233 - NO CTG ROLLMARK, minimal British marks, supposedly shipped to S. America


3.A. “455 Hand Ejector-2nd Model” #5462 thru 74755.

5719 - "Smith & Wesson .455". “A Commercial (no letter). Shipped May 1915. Birmingham proofs”
7766 – NO CTG ROLLMARK
10663 - NO CTG ROLLMARK, shipped to Winch for ammo testing
12448 – NO CTG ROLLMARK on barrel
12508 – NO FACTORY CTG ROLLMARK, converted to 45 ACP/RR, stamped ".45AP"
12847 - "Smith & Wesson .455". Shipped Dec. 1917, probably to Shapleigh Hardware. Roy Jinks advised me this would letter as chambered for .455 Colt.
14337 – NO CTG ROLLMARK
15015 - "Smith & Wesson .455".
15515 - marked 45 AR SMITH & WESSON left side
15543 – NO CTG ROLLMARK
15877 - marked "Smith & Wesson”
15980 - marked "Smith & Wesson"
17320 - marked 455 left side
23597 - NO CTG ROLLMARK; marked Smith & Wesson only
26007 – NO CTG ROLLMARK
27536 - "S & W .455 "Left side of Barrel, back from ctr, cylinder also measures 1 5/8"
29198 - caliber marked, in Germany
29515 - left side barrel is marked SMITH & WESSON .455., shipped in December of 1915
29954 - stamped 455, British acceptance stamps and, I think, Australian unit stamp.
30414 – cal marked 455 shipped Dec. 16, 1915 to Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge in NY
31138 – stamped left hand side
31739 - marked 455 left side
31776 - LH side of barrel roll marked "Smith & Wesson .455.
31782 - caliber marked, converted to 45 ACP Cylinder faced off, in Germany
32061 - marked "Smith & Wesson .455"
33764 – Smith & Wesson .455. on left side of barrel, converted to 45 ACP/AR, cut to 4”
35064 - roll marked .455 on barrel Canadian C circle arrow marked
35711 - roll marked .455 on L side of bbl, shipped on Jan 6, 1916, British marked
37923 - roll marked on left side of barrel
39155 - marked "Smith & Wesson .455"
39645 – marked "Smith & Wesson .455"
39738 - roll marked .455 on barrel x-pennants, in & out broad arrows
40096 - marked .455
43067 - marked .455. on left side of the barrel
44519 - "Smith & Wesson .455." left side of Barrel
45484 - roll marked on left side of barrel
46748 – NO CTG ROLLMARK factory 45 Colt from the group of 15
470?0 – roll marked left side, Canada,
47474 - S&W .455. on Left side, aftermarket 45 Colt Cyl.
56050 - S&W .455. on Left side of barrel
52908 - 455 stamped, shipped April 1916, went to England
53468 - marked .455 on LS of barrel.
56050 – marked .455 left side
56603 - marked .455 left side
57387 - NO CTG ROLLMARK shipped to Rem for Great Britain
58547 - 455 stamped. shipped May 1916, went to England
59045 - 455 stamped. shipped May 1916, went to England
61801 – NO CTG ROLLMARK
62941 - marked 455 LH Side
63279 - Smith and Wesson .455. on left side
66549 - caliber marked, in Germany
66573 - marked Smith & Wesson .455.
66860 - 455 marking, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Dec 1917
67691 - stamped .455 coml gun shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in Dec 1917
68103 - marked "Smith & Wesson .455"
69234 - marked Smith & Wesson .455, no martial markings or British proofs, commercially shipped Dec 1917, to Shapleigh Hardware
73778 - original .455. rollmark left side
74744 - NOT CTG ROLLMARKED factory 45 Colt, one of the 724 shipped May 4, 1917 to the Phelps Dodge Mining Co.


3.B. “44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock” 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, built from remaining TL frames and numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12,000 – 14,XXX range.

12459 - cal marked, from CAN, no govt stampings, shipped to Ottawa, CA firm, 5/3/16
12493 - Left side of barrel marked Smith & Wesson 455
12609 - Left side marked Smith & Wesson 455, shipped 11/24/16 to Montreal CA, Canadian officer gun
12618 - stamped .455 (British proofs)
12742 – stamped, likely one of the 691 "Spare Parts" TL's produced in 1916 and possibly one of 325 shipped to Shapleigh Hardware on December 29, 1917.
12787 – Marked Smith & Wesson 455, commercially sold to Shapleigh Hardware on December 29, 1917
12847 - "Smith & Wesson .455". Shipped Dec. 1917, probably to Shapleigh Hardware. Roy Jinks advised me this would letter as chambered for .455 Colt.
12910 – cal marked, commercial
12973 – cal marked
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Last edited by Hondo44; 11-28-2017 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 10-14-2017, 02:09 PM
delta-419 delta-419 is offline
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Talking S&W MKII .455

S&W MKII serial number 9980 is not marked with the caliber. Some Canadian military marks on left side of receiver, broad star burst over crossed flags. Left side above grip: crossed flags, over mark not readable, over II. Right side next to cylinder retaining screw, 7 lines of precise punctuations in a circle, to block out a stamping? Hope this helps.
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Old 10-14-2017, 02:39 PM
Dpris Dpris is offline
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Thanks Jim!!!!!!
You are an invaluable resource.
Denis
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  #149  
Old 10-14-2017, 09:31 PM
merl67 merl67 is online now
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I posted this one the other day serial number 20509 Canadian marked converted to 45 AR barrel shortened to 4 inches nickle plated no caliber marking doesn't look like it ever had it. It seems to fall into the range where they weren't caliber marked.
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Old 10-15-2017, 05:24 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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Thank you for your 2nd Model Mk II info.
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