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  #101  
Old 08-26-2017, 08:20 PM
Stumpnov Stumpnov is offline
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Default Candian 455

I have a 455 Mkii that was delivered to the Canadians in WW1, been treated a little rough but still in original configuration. It came with 1917 grips, which I have left on due to lack of originals and not knowing the history. Any help in tracking down the unit history would be appreciated.
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  #102  
Old 09-01-2017, 09:49 AM
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Just in case you haven't picked up the details on my TL:

1st Model (group 2) serial 718, (probably in first shipment from Remington to England in 1914). All original and in excellent condition except for the owners name engraved on left side.
It went home to Australia with the original owner after the war, so no extraneous commercial stampings. No markings on side of barrel. (Just the standard stuff on the top.)

Let me know if you need anything else......
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  #103  
Old 09-02-2017, 12:22 AM
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Thank you Dean!

I still don't have a single entry in Group 1; the first 666 military guns or the 146 commercials. I've seen a few on this forum. I guess I'll have to search and scan old threads.
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  #104  
Old 09-02-2017, 07:15 AM
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Jim,

I commend your effort to catalog these models. Let me chime in with two that I own.

The first it a Triple Lock, s/n 12787.



This revolver is unaltered in any way. As you can see, the left side of the barrel is marked:

SMITH & WESSON .455.

It is equipped with a butt swivel, which letters original to the gun. The serial number is to the side.



Here's how it letters:



So it is in your category 3.B. "44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock: 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12,XXX range."

************************************
************************************


Next is my Second Model .455. It bears s/n 69234 and appears to have been sold commercially. It remiains unaltered in any way and has no martial markings or British proofs at all. Roy reports that it shipped December 1917, which along with its commercial characteristics seems to be a dead giveaway that it was in the large shipement to Shapleigh Hardware.





The left side of the barrel is marked:

SMITH & WESSON .455.

The right side of the barrel has no roll mark.

It is equipped with a butt swivel, which appears to be original to the gun. The serial number is to the side.



I have not lettered this revolver.

I displayed a lot of images of this revolver at this thread: S&W .455 Mk. II Hand Ejector 2nd Model #69234


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  #105  
Old 09-02-2017, 10:16 AM
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Curl,

Two stunningly beautiful examples!

Thank you!
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  #106  
Old 09-02-2017, 06:51 PM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Thank you Dean!

I still don't have a single entry in Group 1; the first 666 military guns or the 146 commercials. I've seen a few on this forum. I guess I'll have to search and scan old threads.
Here is one of the 666, serial no. 8493
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:00 PM
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Thank you Franky.

Another real stunner, this one looks like 100% and un-refinished!

Our first group 1. serial # on the known # list of the first 666 for the military in several shipments across the pond.

But does not appear to have any martial stampings, is that correct?

If so we're making new history here!
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  #108  
Old 09-02-2017, 10:27 PM
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Does 8493 have any calbre markings on the barrel ?

I am unable to see any in the photo.

Regards


AlanD
Sydney
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  #109  
Old 09-02-2017, 10:48 PM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Thank you Franky.

Another real stunner, this one looks like 100% and un-refinished!

Our first group 1. serial # on the known # list of the first 666 for the military in several shipments across the pond.

But does not appear to have any martial stampings, is that correct?

If so we're making new history here!
Jim, this gun has seen very little use but does have some finish issues as the photo below shows. Tried everything but couldn't clean it up.
It has crossed pennants on what the British call the breech ring and back of the cylinder plus the usual marks on left of the frame at top of the blackstrap, but no other military markings.

Frank.
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  #110  
Old 09-02-2017, 11:17 PM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Here's a 2nd Model Royal Flying Corp revolver embellished by Alexander Henry and Co. Of Edinburgh, Scotland, for a Major J. Johnson who may have been Canadian. It bears the palindromic serial no. 47474. Extra cylinder in .45 Colt.
Barrel marking is obvious. Other side of topstrap bears the inscription, "For King and Country."
I'm chasing up details on more guns and will post in the next day or so.

Frank.
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  #111  
Old 09-02-2017, 11:33 PM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanDavid View Post
Does 8493 have any calbre markings on the barrel ?

I am unable to see any in the photo.

Regards


AlanD
Sydney
Alan, no calibre markings on the barrel.
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  #112  
Old 09-03-2017, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankynohankypanky View Post
Jim, this gun has seen very little use but does have some finish issues as the photo below shows. Tried everything but couldn't clean it up.
It has crossed pennants on what the British call the breech ring and back of the cylinder plus the usual marks on left of the frame at top of the blackstrap, but no other military markings.

Frank.
It looks like some chemical reaction. Above the 3rd lock cam plate it looks like old adhesive adhering to the surface. But I doubt it's on the surface, more likely the bluing is actually etched, right?

Lower down it appears the same thing has faded the bluing, but to a much lesser degree than the upper spot. It's a mystery to me how the damage is so localized.

Above the bad spot, the frame around the barrel threads sticks out much farther and yet, undamaged. Like something was adhered to the frame on that square spot like a shelf # tag, or label (or ?) glued on. And the adhesive reacted with the blue and metal underneath. And the lower spot was just from being in proximity to the square spot and whatever was stuck to it. As if the gun was stored in a rack upside down and volatile fumes emanated upwards from the square spot to fade the blue on the lower frame.

Did it have any rust on the square spot before cleaning?

If it was in front of me, I'd study the damage with my 80 x glass.


If it is something on the surface of the bluing:

Have you tried Goo Gone? Acetone?
Could it be remnants of solder as if something was attached there with a poor solder job ('cold joint')?

All in all, still a beautiful gun.
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  #113  
Old 09-03-2017, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankynohankypanky View Post
Here's a 2nd Model Royal Flying Corp revolver embellished by Alexander Henry and Co. Of Edinburgh, Scotland, for a Major J. Johnson who may have been Canadian. It bears the palindromic serial no. 47474. Extra cylinder in .45 Colt.
Barrel marking is obvious. Other side of topstrap bears the inscription, "For King and Country."
I'm chasing up details on more guns and will post in the next day or so.

Frank.
Dang, what a cool combination! Another gorgeous example that does not look refinished in any way. Crisp edges, no purple parts, and the trigger rebound slide pin is still domed like originally on all pre war guns.

Do I have the serial # for the project list?

The 45 Colt marking on the cyl is very professional looking as is the inscription on top strap. Many of these overseas guns were worked on by fine shotgun makers. Is that who Alexander Henry and Co. is?

Is the 45 Colt Cyl serial #d to the gun like the 455 cyl?
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  #114  
Old 09-07-2017, 01:57 AM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Jim, a few more for your database;

1st Models;

#5719; "Smith & Wesson .455". A gorgeous Commercial but not listed anywhere as such (no letter). Shipped May 1915. Birmingham proofs very neatly applied to each cylinder flute and to the barrel.
#8493; No caliber markings. See post 106 above.
#12847; "Smith & Wesson .455". Shipped Dec. 1917, probably to Shapleigh Hardware. Roy Jinks advised me this would letter as chambered for .455 Colt.
#15015; "Smith & Wesson .455".

2nd Models;

#15877 and #15980 are marked "Smith & Wesson".
Following are marked "Smith & Wesson .455", #'s 68103, 39155, 39645, 32061 and 47474 (see post above re 47474).
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  #115  
Old 09-07-2017, 02:39 AM
frankynohankypanky frankynohankypanky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Dang, what a cool combination! Another gorgeous example that does not look refinished in any way. Crisp edges, no purple parts, and the trigger rebound slide pin is still domed like originally on all pre war guns.

Do I have the serial # for the project list?

The 45 Colt marking on the cyl is very professional looking as is the inscription on top strap. Many of these overseas guns were worked on by fine shotgun makers. Is that who Alexander Henry and Co. is?

Is the 45 Colt Cyl serial #d to the gun like the 455 cyl?
Jim, I'm sure this gun was refinished by Alex. Henry.
Alexander Henry was amongst the best of the British gunmakers and mainly known for their rifles, both singles and doubles. This revolver was a military shipment and the letter says nothing about the extras. I would think the embellishment was done after the war.
The cylinders are both numbered alike and the .45 Colt cylinder is .010" shorter with the chambers counterbored for the thicker rim.
The Latin expression "Servabo Fidem" means "I Will Keep the Faith".
Frank.
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  #116  
Old 09-07-2017, 02:53 AM
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Frank,

All entered. Thanks very much!

#47474 is just an awesomely unique convertible!

You have the distinction of having at least one 455 example in each of 3 categories of the database: 1., 3A, & 3B.
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  #117  
Old 09-07-2017, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankynohankypanky View Post
Jim, a few more for your database;

1st Models;

#5719; "Smith & Wesson .455". A gorgeous Commercial but not listed anywhere as such (no letter). Shipped May 1915. Birmingham proofs very neatly applied to each cylinder flute and to the barrel.
#8493; No caliber markings. See post 106 above.
#12847; "Smith & Wesson .455". Shipped Dec. 1917, probably to Shapleigh Hardware. Roy Jinks advised me this would letter as chambered for .455 Colt.
#15015; "Smith & Wesson .455".

2nd Models;

#15877 and #15980 are marked "Smith & Wesson".
Following are marked "Smith & Wesson .455", #'s 68103, 39155, 39645, 32061 and 47474 (see post above re 47474).
WOW. That is quite a bunch of 455s. Congratulations on your collection of them.
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  #118  
Old 09-10-2017, 02:10 AM
AlanDavid AlanDavid is offline
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Quote:
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The U.K. agent for Smith and Wesson at this time was Chas Osborne & Co, Gunmaker. He had a factory in Birmingham and a retail shop in London. He was friends with Mr Wesson so that's how he became the agent for S&W in the United Kingdom. Chas Osborne went out of business around 1928. S&W were approached by Le Perssone & Co of 99 Cannon Street , London (a wholesaling and agency firm) to become there UK agent but were only prepared to give S&W one or two pages in their catalogue, so S&W said , no thanks. A. G. Parker which went on to become Parker Hale were appointed as the sole UK agents for S&W and remained so up to at least the 1970's.
This being the case I have never understood why Wilkinson Sword Co purchased the surplus 123 .455 revolvers in October 1914. Perhaps Chas Osborne turned the offer down and Wilkinson's picked them up by default?
Unfortunately, the Chas Osborne & Co records appear to be lost, I have put a bit of effort into trying to locate them, but the consensus is they no longer exist - pity.
Regards
AlanD
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Further to my previous post. Just found a comment in the British trade newspaper 'Arms & Explosives' for January 1915, where Wilkinson Sword Company announce they 'have taken over the wholesale agency for Smith and Wesson revolvers and pistols in this country.' So that ties in with the purchase of 123 revolvers that when to them in October 1914. Mystery solved.
Just need to establish the time frame for Parker Hale Ltd taking over from Wilkinson Sword Co.
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  #119  
Old 09-10-2017, 03:29 AM
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Wilkinson Sword also had a close relationship with Webley, who made special models for them. The Models of Wilkinson-Webleys of 1905 and 1911 were probably the best, most practical Webley revolvers made. They had bright blue finishes and honed actions and I think differed from the later MK VI in having a button to push to remove the cylinder for cleaning. Grips were checkered walnut with a gold medallion for an owner's initials.

Because new officers bought swords there, a man could get his revolver, too, in one stop. It no doubt worked out well for Wilkinson.

In WW II, Wilkinson was the original maker of the famous Fairbairn-Sykes dagger. Ian Fleming, who owned one, a First Model, mentioned that in a James Bond book, I think, "Live and Let Die." I believe he also had a Randall knife, maybe a Model 2, but he never gave the model or brand.

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Old 09-10-2017, 12:54 PM
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Parenthetically, on a brief side note- I visited the Wilkinson establishment in London in 1975, to drop off a sword for repair.
The showroom was incredible.
While there, they assembled an FS dagger for me while I waited.
I still have it.
Denis
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  #121  
Old 09-10-2017, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankynohankypanky View Post
Jim, a few more for your database;

1st Models;

#5719; "Smith & Wesson .455". A gorgeous Commercial but not listed anywhere as such (no letter). Shipped May 1915. Birmingham proofs very neatly applied to each cylinder flute and to the barrel.
#8493; No caliber markings. See post 106 above.
#12847; "Smith & Wesson .455". Shipped Dec. 1917, probably to Shapleigh Hardware. Roy Jinks advised me this would letter as chambered for .455 Colt.
#15015; "Smith & Wesson .455".

2nd Models;

#15877 and #15980 are marked "Smith & Wesson".
Following are marked "Smith & Wesson .455", #'s 68103, 39155, 39645, 32061 and 47474 (see post above re 47474).


Here is ammo you need for your 455 Colt .

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Old 09-10-2017, 09:00 PM
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No third lock, no shroud. SN 44519 left side of Barrel "Smith & Wesson .455." period in front and following the numerals. Right side of barrel, no markings. Not many british markings. Crossed pennants left frontside of frame, small logo right side of frame. Only a couple of small stamps, one right side over front of trigger guard. One on left side over the stock medallion too vague to see, over II. Hope this adds to your data.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpris View Post
Parenthetically, on a brief side note- I visited the Wilkinson establishment in London in 1975, to drop off a sword for repair.
The showroom was incredible.
While there, they assembled an FS dagger for me while I waited.
I still have it.
Denis
Denis-

Which model of Fairbairn? Were they by then making just a Third Model?

Believe it or not, when in jr. HS, I bought a couple for $2.98 each. I had no idea that prices for these commando knives would escalate as they have.

I much prefer the earlier models, which have longer handles.

Which model of sword do/did you have? I have one of John Wilkinson-Latham's sword books and know British military swords pretty well. I like the feel of the infantry officer's Model of 1897, but find the Model of 1908 (1912, for officers pattern) cavalry sword a bit long, unless mounted. I feel sure this sword substantially influenced G.S. Patton's sword design.

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