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Old 07-04-2017, 12:18 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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Default .455 Mk II revolver research thread

I'd like to get a handle on the proportion of caliber roll marked and unmarked British service revolvers.

I want to categorize by the following production models:

0. Misc. individually produced commercial .455s.
1. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock, 846 in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455.
2. 455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock #1 thru #5461.
3. A. 455 Hand Ejector-2nd Model #5462 thru 74755.
3. B. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock: 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12,XXX range.

I would appreciate info from any 455 owners who'd like to participate and I'll post the results. A serial # (or partial) would be very helpful as well as whether or not it's caliber roll marked on the barrel.

Thanks all,
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Old 07-04-2017, 08:37 AM
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Jim,

I have two triple locks, neither caliber marked:

#4324 British
#5788 Canadian

Bob

Last edited by red9; 07-04-2017 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 07-04-2017, 09:09 AM
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Jim, I have a triple lock and a 2nd Model.

Triple Lock - 12618 - stamped .455 (British proofs)

2nd Model - 67691 - stamped .455 (this gun was one of the guns shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in December 1917)


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Old 07-04-2017, 09:21 AM
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I have three 2nd Models and all have SMITH & WESSON 455 stampings. All three went to England.

52908 shipped April 1916
58547 shipped May 1916
59045 shipped May 1916
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Old 07-04-2017, 09:21 AM
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Jim: 455 Mk2 Second Mod, #26007 Not stamped.
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Old 07-04-2017, 10:05 AM
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Default No 3863

No markings except stamped when converted.
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Old 07-04-2017, 11:31 AM
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5105 TL NO MARKINGS
10663 NO MARKINGS SHIPPED TO WINCHESTER AMMO TEST
57387 NO MARKINGS SHIPPED TO REMINGTON FOR GB
66860 455 MARKINGS SHIPPED TO SHAPLEIGH DEC 1917
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Old 07-04-2017, 03:05 PM
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Default .455 2nd mod.

Hello Jim. I hope I have some info. you can use.2nd mod. Hand Ejector, .455 SN 12448, no roll mark on barrel. No factory letter.
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Old 07-04-2017, 06:38 PM
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2nd Mod. .455 roll mark (not converted) SN 29954, British acceptance stamps and, I think, Australian unit stamp.

Jeff
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:57 AM
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Thanks for everyone's participation so far.
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Old 07-05-2017, 10:31 AM
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3. B. 455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock. Serial #12742. Not lettered but likely one of the 691 "Spare Parts" TL's produced in 1916 and possibly one of 325 shipped to Shapleigh Hardware on December 29, 1917. Nickel refinish, correct un-numbered stocks came on the gun and later repaired by our friend DWFAN. Acquired at a Phoenix gun show in January 2014.

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Old 07-05-2017, 03:07 PM
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Don't know if this fits in or not, maybe way late in production? What do I know I'm not a collector!

I have a bbl only from a 2nd Model.
Ser# 45484
6 1/2" Long. Roll marked on the left side:
Smith & Wesson .455.
Roll marked address on top, nothing on the right side except someones scratched in initials!

No British or other Proof, Property or inspection marks.

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Old 07-05-2017, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red9 View Post
Jim,

I have two triple locks, neither caliber marked:

#4324 British
#5788 Canadian

Bob
Hi Bob,

Thx for your contribution above. I find TL # 5788 very interesting. Is it lettered by the way?

The serial # is not on the list for the 812 TLs in the first category, too high to be in the 5461 TLs in the 2nd category, and very low for those usually associated with the 691 TLs in category 3.B. But I'll list it in 3.B. for now as the most likely possibility.
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Old 07-05-2017, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22hipower View Post
2nd Mod. .455 roll mark (not converted) SN 29954, British acceptance stamps and, I think, Australian unit stamp.

Jeff
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Not to butt in on Jim's research, but any chance you could post a close-up of that stamp?
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Old 07-05-2017, 10:47 PM
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Hi Jim,

a Triple Lock #3147 stamped on RHS of barrel
and a second model #37923 roll marked on LHS of Barrel

Craig
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Old 07-05-2017, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
Not to butt in on Jim's research, but any chance you could post a close-up of that stamp?
I think the 5 MD is the Australian 5th Military District and the other number is likely a rack number. Never confirmed this but the marking is similar to others I found when I researched it a couple years ago. If you or others have additional information that would be appreciated.

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Old 07-05-2017, 11:26 PM
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Hi Jeff,

you are correct about the 5th Military district. This is for Western Australia,my home state.

Craig
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:33 AM
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Jim, I have one from category 2 and one from category 3.

The TL is serial number 358, and I am going to have to dig it out and look at it to see what rollmarks it may have.

The 2nd model is number 73778. It has the original .455 rollmark, supplemented by .45 S&W, which is rollmarked slightly above and to the right of the original caliber marking.

Both guns have been converted to chamber .45 Colt. The rim thickness problem was solved on the TL by partially counterboring the cylinder and ejector star. On the 2nd model, the problem was addressed by planing the surface of the recoil shield.

The second model has also been converted to a target revolver with the addition of Micro sights, not to mention being reblued. It doesn't look bad for what it is, but it is a long way from being original.
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:36 AM
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Jeff and Craig, thanks to both of you.
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Old 07-06-2017, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun_Mad View Post
Hi Jim,

a Triple Lock #3147 stamped on RHS of barrel
and a second model #37923 roll marked on LHS of Barrel

Craig
Thank you Craig.

Your TL #3147 has introduced a whole 'nother variable; it's the first I can recall caliber marking on the right side of barrel?

Maybe others with right side cal stamping can state that as well.

Thank you,
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Old 07-07-2017, 11:40 AM
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Mk II serial number 15543. No calibre markings.

Mk II serial number 31138. On the LHS of the barrel to the right of Smith & Wesson .455.

I see that 215hq (post #12) has a barrel that also has the full stop after the 455

Peter
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Old 07-07-2017, 03:49 PM
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#1. MKII - 17320 - Marked 455 LHS - Blue Refinish - "Well Done" 45LC Conversion - All Proper British & Canadian Marks - Canadian Argyle Light Infantry Marked - Canadian Royal Military College Marked








#2. - MKII - 31739 - Marked 455 LHS - Original Blue - Original Chambering - One Canadian Mark Only (Crown 30) at Butt Near Toe - About Mint




Hope this is helpful Sir.
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Old 07-07-2017, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
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Mk II serial number 15543. No calibre markings.

Mk II serial number 31138. On the LHS of the barrel to the right of Smith & Wesson .455.

I see that 215hq (post #12) has a barrel that also has the full stop after the 455

Peter
PJGP,

Thank you.

Sorry, don't no what you mean by "...has the full stop after the 455."
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:17 AM
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Jim,

I realize that #5788 does not fit in the known range. I did not letter it, thinking most of it's collector value was lost in the rechambering to .45 Colt. Like David's, it is stamped"45 S&W."

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Old 07-08-2017, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
PJGP, Thank you.
Sorry, don't no what you mean by "...has the full stop after the 455."
OK, in my post the full stop after the .455 is not the end of the sentence, but the full stop stamped on the gun! The calibre stamp is ".455." I should have made that clearer.

Peter
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Old 07-08-2017, 02:21 PM
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OK, in my post the full stop after the .455 is not the end of the sentence, but the full stop stamped on the gun! The calibre stamp is ".455." I should have made that clearer.

Peter
Jim:

Just a hunch, but you may not be aware that "full stop" is the King's English for "period" .....
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:33 PM
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I have a 2nd Model #40096, marked .455, with Canadian markings and and British proofs.
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:32 PM
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From memory, it seems like back in the 1915 time frame, periods were used on S&Ws a lot more than in later years:
S. & W.
U.S.A.
and of course "Smith & Wesson .455." as in the photo below.
All I can say is that things were more formal then(?) And that line was considered enough of a sentence to need a period(?)
.455 Hand Ejector Second Model Question-sam_1710-jpg
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:09 PM
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1st Model TL #1203 - Not caliber marked
2nd Model He - #53468 - Marked .455 on LS of barrel.

Hope this helps on your database. Mike
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:41 PM
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Jim: I have 2nd Model .455 on left side of barrel serial # 61801 - no additional marks of any kind.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
Jim:

Just a hunch, but you may not be aware that "full stop" is the King's English for "period" .....
LOL, no I was not. Thank you!
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Old 07-09-2017, 01:06 AM
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Hello, my Smith is marked Smith & Wesson .455. on left side of the barrel.
Serial number on butt 43067. On the right side in front of the trigger guard are the numbers 3 above 103. Marked at the toe of the blackstrap is 3 M D. I was told by the seller it was Australian also. Thank you for sharing with us!

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Old 07-09-2017, 02:54 AM
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Results so far. A small sample but trends are already beginning to show up. Those not caliber marked shown as such in caps:

Cal stamping of British contract and commercial .455s categorized by the following production models:

0. "Rare misc. early commercial production 44 TL 1st models chambered in .455."
Including a pre Brit Contract special order TL subset of 25 standard .44 1st Model TLs in the .44 serial # range chambered in .455 with 5” barrels, shipped Nov. 1, 1912. Thx to Jim Fisher for bringing these to our attention and sharing documentation! See #5751 below.
A Scarce 5 Inch Triple lock shipped to Canada in April of 1915

5642 – NOT CAL STAMPED shipped April 1915
5724 - NOT CAL STAMPED 455 shipped April 28,1915, from Canada
5751 - cal is 455 Eley, shipped in 1912 sold in a commercial order of 25, 5” guns to H. Robitsek, Canada
5788 - NOT CAL STAMPED; Canadian 6 1/2” barrel shipped June 4, 1915 in an order of 5 to Hurd & Co.


1. “44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock”, 812 (military & commercially sold) in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455.


2. “455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock” #1 thru #5461.

358 – NOT CAL MARKED
1203 – NOT CAL MARKED
2147 - NOT CAL STAMPED, serial # not drilled thru for Lanyard, from Canada
3147 - stamped on right hand side of barrel
3863 – NOT CAL STAMPED
4324 - NOT CAL STAMPED
5105 - NOT CAL STAMPED


3. A. “455 Hand Ejector-2nd Model” #5462 thru 74755.

7766 – NO CAL STAMP. Alan [murphydog]
10663 - NO CAL MARKING, shipped to Winch for ammo testing
12448 – NO CAL MARK on barrel
12508 – NO FACTORY CAL MARK, converted to45 ACP/RR, stamped ".45AP"
15543 – NO CAL MARK
17320 - marked 455 left side
26007 – NO CAL STAMP
29515 - left side barrel is marked SMITH & WESSON .455., shipped in December of 1915
29954 - stamped 455, British acceptance stamps and, I think, Australian unit stamp.
31138 – stamped left hand side
31739 - marked 455 left side
35711 - roll marked .455 on L side of bbl, shipped on Jan 6, 1916
37923 - roll marked on left side of barrel
40096 - marked .455
43067 - marked .455. on left side of the barrel
45484 - roll marked on left side of barrel
52908 - shipped April 1916 455 STAMPED. All three went to England.
53468 - marked .455 on LS of barrel.
56603 - marked .455 left side
57387 - NO MARKINGS shipped to Rem for Great Britain
58547 - 455 stamped. shipped May 1916 “
59045 - 455 stamped. shipped May 1916 “
61801 – NOT CAL MARKED
62941 - Marked 455 LHS
63279 - Smith and Wesson .455. on left side
66573 - marked SMITH & WESSON .455.
66860 - 455 marking, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Dec 1917
67691 - stamped .455 (this gun was one of the guns shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in December 1917)
73778 - original .455. rollmark left side


3. B. “44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock” 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12 – 14,XXX range.

12493 - Left side of barrel marked Smith & Wesson 455
12618 - stamped .455 (British proofs)
12742 – stamped, likely one of the 691 "Spare Parts" TL's produced in 1916 and possibly one of 325 shipped to Shapleigh Hardware on December 29, 1917.
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Old 07-09-2017, 09:00 AM
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S&W 2nd mod. Hand Ejector ser.# 56603 marked .455. on left side of barrel.
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Old 07-09-2017, 09:07 AM
horthog52 horthog52 is online now
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I should have been more clear in my first post. The left side of the barrel of # 12448 is marked "Smith & Wesson", but not cartridge marked. Sorry for any confusion.
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Old 07-09-2017, 01:02 PM
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Jim, update on .455 TL No. 358. The only rollmark on the barrel consists of the patent dates on top. No corporate identity on right side, no caliber rollmark on left side.

To clarify the markings on my converted second model No. 73778, the original left side caliber rollmark reads SMITH & WESSON .455. (yes, a period follows the numerals). There is no rollmark on the right side. Above the original caliber marking is the much lighter rollmark CAL. 45 S.W. with no ampersand and no decimal points before or after the numerals. I still wonder if this means there was an intermediate conversion to the .45 Schofield (or S&W) round before the chambers were lengthened once more to take the .45 Colt rounds that the revolver chambers today.
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Last edited by DCWilson; 07-09-2017 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 07-09-2017, 01:07 PM
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I should add that # 56603 also has "Smith&Wesson" as well as .455. on left side of barrel.
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Old 07-09-2017, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
LOL, no I was not. Thank you!
Actually it is the Queens English at present, and has been since 1952!

Cheers
Peter
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Old 07-09-2017, 01:42 PM
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Actually it is the Queens English at present, and has been since 1952!

Cheers
Peter
Point taken, although we language nerds tend to view the term "King's English" as a fixed expression originating with the Fowlers' famous grammar book (of same name) from 1906, and therefore not subject to modification based on the current monarch's gender .
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Old 07-09-2017, 04:05 PM
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Mine is a 2nd Model HE, left side of barrel marked SMITH & WESSON .455., rechambered for .45 Colt by reaming the cylinder and ejector star. The serial number is 66573. The gun also has added Micro front and adjustable rear sights, both well done. It has British proof marks plus the legend "NOTENGLISHMAKE" stamped on the barrel and frame.
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson View Post
To clarify the markings on my converted second model No. 73778, the original left side caliber rollmark reads SMITH & WESSON .455. (yes, a period follows the numerals). There is no rollmark on the right side. Above the original caliber marking is the much lighter rollmark CAL. 45 S.W. with no ampersand and no decimal points before or after the numerals. I still wonder if this means there was an intermediate conversion to the .45 Schofield (or S&W) round before the chambers were lengthened once more to take the .45 Colt rounds that the revolver chambers today.
Thank you.

That's interesting, and yes, it may have been converted to 45 Schofield initially, stamped as such, and later lengthened to 45 Colt. If so you may detect two rings in the chambers: when originally reamed past the 455 Mk II shoulder and later when reamed again past the 45 Schofield shoulder.

If not, perhaps the original converter reamed for 45 Colt. But knowing it would also chamber the Schofield, marked the barrel 45 SW to stay loyal to the S&W revolver maker.
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Old 07-10-2017, 04:26 AM
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Hondo,

I have a triple lock serial number 12493. It has a raft of British stamps as well as the broad arrows. Left side of barrel marked Smith & Wesson 455.
Top of barrel is the patent dates address etc. Right side of barrel was unmarked by S&W

I suspect it is from the second group of 455 TL as it has barrel roll stamped where the gun with serial number 12448 you have listed with the first batch has no roll marking on barrel. I also suspect there is a 455 TL from the first batch with matching serial number to mine. Just 45 numbers higher than the unroll marked 12448 one listed above
Man would I love to find that one too.

Last edited by steelslaver; 07-10-2017 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:39 PM
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MKII - 62941 - Marked 455 LHS - Parkerized - Last Digit 5 struck thru & Now Marked 45 AR - Proper British Marks.
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:50 PM
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s/n 63279, not a triple lock with Smith and Wesson .455. on left side of barrel and Canadian markings.
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  #45  
Old 07-12-2017, 04:21 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red9 View Post
Jim,

I realize that #5788 does not fit in the known range. I did not letter it, thinking most of it's collector value was lost in the rechambering to .45 Colt. Like David's, it is stamped"45 S&W."

Bob
Hi Bob,

You may be interested in this TL #5724 very near yours, in this thread:

A Scarce 5 Inch Triple lock shipped to Canada in April of 1915

It's also from Canada, which is lettered as a 455 1st Model TL, and sold commercially, that shipped April 28,1915 to Hurd & Co., with a 5” barrel.

Because it shipped too early to be in the 3.B. category, I've placed it and yours in category 2. in my post #33 above.
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Last edited by Hondo44; 07-12-2017 at 04:23 AM.
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  #46  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:11 AM
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I own 35711, roll marked .455 on L side of bbl, still in orig .455 and shipped to Rem-UMC in NY for agents of British Gov't on Jan 6, 1916 as per S&W letter.
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Old 07-12-2017, 06:16 AM
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double post.
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:35 AM
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For your list I have 29515 with a:

^
*
44
E

II

at the top of the frame hump on the left side as well as what appears to be crossed flags on the left frame just under the barrel pin and also on the cylinder face between charge holes to the left of the stamped serial number. Left barrel is marked SMITH & WESSON .455.

Bottom of left stock panel is marked G S I which I assume are the initials of a former caretaker. No other markings that I can see.

According to Roy the gun was shipped in December of 1915 but no letter so destination unknown.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:22 PM
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Serial number of this TL is 2147.
British proofs and Broad Arrow.
Not .45 long Colt.
In Alberta.
Serial number is not drilled though for the Lanayrd ring, it is beside it.
No caliber stamps on either side of the barrel.
I don’t know if it is:
1. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock, 846 in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455.
or if it is
2. 455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock #1 thru #5461.
Great survey.
thanks
Tom
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:45 PM
Tom 3Persons Tom 3Persons is offline
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Serial number of this TL is 2147.
British proofs and Broad Arrow.
Not .45 long Colt.
Located it in Canada.
Serial number is not drilled though for the Lanayrd ring, it is beside it.
No caliber stamps on either side of the barrel.
I don’t know if it is:
1. 44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock, 846 in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455.
or if it is
2. 455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock #1 thru #5461.
Great survey.
thanks
Tom
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