M&P with U.S. Service CTGs on barrel

[James K]

Never noticed this on the barrel of an M&P. S/N is 108XXX.

[Muley Gil]

Is this revolver a round butt or a square butt?

[.455_Hunter]

That marking is cool.

[Alk8944]

Your revolver is a Model 1905 Second Change Military and Police, usually abbreviated to simply M&P. The U.S. Service cartridge marked on the barrel is the .38 Long Colt that was the service cartridge at the time. This part of the caliber marking was deleted sometime before 1908, so the period of manufacture is between 1905 and 1908.

There is some disagreement on whether these guns are to be called Model 1902 (Round butt) or Model 1905 (Square butt) but both the Standard Catalog of S&W and McHenry & Roper indicate there was concurrent manufacture of both types with other features determining which year model the gun would be. By the serial number you give it would be a 1905 2nd change as noted above.

[James K]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

Is this revolver a round butt or a square butt?

Square butt.

[James K]

Originally Posted by Alk8944

Your revolver is a Model 1905 Second Change Military and Police, usually abbreviated to simply M&P. The U.S. Service cartridge marked on the barrel is the .38 Long Colt that was the service cartridge at the time. This part of the caliber marking was deleted sometime before 1908, so the period of manufacture is between 1905 and 1908.

There is some disagreement on whether these guns are to be called Model 1902 (Round butt) or Model 1905 (Square butt) but both the Standard Catalog of S&W and McHenry & Roper indicate there was concurrent manufacture of both types with other features determining which year model the gun would be. By the serial number you give it would be a 1905 2nd change as noted above.

Interesting that it would be chambered for 38 Long Colt when it says 38 S&W Special. Good to know.

[glowe]

Actually, the two line stamping started around 21,000 with the Model 1902. Roy states that they back to late Model 1899s, but I have not ran across any. You will see some 38 Special revolvers from this era with two clear burn lines in the chambers, indicating that both 38 Special and the shorter 38 Colt were shot regularly in the gun. 108,XXX would have shipped around 1907-1909, so would be a 38 Hand Ejector, 1st Change.

[DWalt]

Dimensionally, the difference between the two is that the .38 Special case is longer than the .38 LC case by about 1/8". The reason was to provide more case volume to hold more black powder. The .38 Special was originally intended as a black powder cartridge, but it was changed to use smokeless powder fairly quickly. .38 Special ammunition remained available as a black powder loading well into the 1930s, but probably with very few customers for it.

[James K]

I do have an 1899 with just a single line for .38 special. Keep learning new stuff about these old Smiths.

[Model19man]

I reload 38 Long Colt. The barrel dimensions on the 38LC are bigger, more like 38 caliber. The soft lead bullets for 38 LC are outside lubricated heel based bullets so the cartridge is made differently than the 38 Special, which uses an inside lubricated .357" OD bullet.

[glowe]

That was changed long ago. The 1899 US Army S&W and Colts were chambered in .358" bullet and inside lubed.

[DWalt]

Indeed, by 1892, the bullet had been changed by the Army to the inside lubricated type having a diameter of 0.353" of 148 grains. That was a hollow based bullet which expanded in the bore. However there is evidence that the earlier outside lubricated bullet with a diameter of 0.376" (150 grains) was still in production at Frankford Arsenal as the "Navy Model" until around 1898.

[glowe]

Once again, by the time that the the Colt Model 1894 and the S&W 1899 Army were introduced, the dimension of the bullet was .357"-.358" depending on what source you find. Using the Volume 2 of The Pitman Notes, page 73, shows the dimensions of a 38 Colt Revolver cartridge dated 1892 shows the bullet as .357". You will find that on page 74, that in 1896 revolver ball is also shown as .357".

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by glowe

Once again, by the time that the the Colt Model 1894 and the S&W 1899 Army were introduced, the dimension of the bullet was .357"-.358" depending on what source you find. Using the Volume 2 of The Pitman Notes, page 73, shows the dimensions of a 38 Colt Revolver cartridge dated 1892 shows the bullet as .357". You will find that on page 74, that in 1896 revolver ball is also shown as .357".

Hackney, Woodin, and Scranton - "History of Modern U.S. Military Ammunition" is the source of the earlier information in #12 that I provided. In it is Chapter 1 which is devoted to that cartridge. The information is mainly from Frankford Arsenal records, but a considerable quantity of that caliber were procured from WRA, Peters, USC, Remington-UMC, and Western. There is a notation that Peters was allowed to use commercial bullets without further details. Nothing was said about bullets allowed to be used by other ammunition contractors. So it is at least possible that flat-based 0.357 bullets could have been used by Army contractors. I believe the 1903 Colt New Army was the first Military Revolver using the smaller bore. I have no idea what those 1899 S&Ws sold to the military had for a bore diameter, but probably used the same barrel as .38 Special.

[glowe]

You still appear not to believe me, but the S&W 1899 Army were .357" as I stated several times above. The factory would have never allowed a dual caliber guns if they not the same size bullet and when all were built for 38 Special ammo. This is not a thread about early Colts, it is a thread about S&Ws with a dual caliber stamping. That is 1902 to 1908, which of course also also .357". ammunition.

I would certainly never shoot a .38" bullet through a .357" barrel.

[James K]

Originally Posted by glowe

You still appear not to believe me, but the S&W 1899 Army were .357" as I stated several times above. The factory would have never allowed a dual caliber guns if they not the same size bullet and when all were built for 38 Special ammo. This is not a thread about early Colts, it is a thread about S&Ws with a dual caliber stamping. That is 1902 to 1908, which of course also also .357". ammunition.

I would certainly never shoot a .38" bullet through a .357" barrel.

Not sure I've digested all this correctly, but I have shot modern standard .38 special through my 1899 and all seemed good to me. Was actually quite impressed with it.

[Model19man]

Originally Posted by James K

Not sure I've digested all this correctly, but I have shot modern standard .38 special through my 1899 and all seemed good to me. Was actually quite impressed with it.

Which is fine because all 38 Special bullets are .357 diameter as is the rifling in the barrel. This was from day one - there is no such thing as a "modern standard" round.

[James K]

Originally Posted by Model19man

Which is fine because all 38 Special bullets are .357 diameter as is the rifling in the barrel. This was from day one - there is no such thing as a "modern standard" round.

Thanks, I just meant I was using standard pressure .38 special and they are modern, not older collectible or period correct type ammo.

[glowe]

Originally Posted by James K

Not sure I've digested all this correctly, but I have shot modern standard .38 special through my 1899 and all seemed good to me. Was actually quite impressed with it.

Yes, the 38 Special is what the gun was designed to shoot. Originally, the Nineteenth Century 38 Long Colt was a heeled bullet and measured about .378"-.380". That was changed in the 1890s to a ,357", matching the 38 Special but still in the shorter case. Therefore, a Model 1899 could shoot either. There were some posts suggesting that the .380" bullet was still being used when the Model 1899 was introduced, but it was gone by the 1890s..

[Model19man]

Originally Posted by James K

Thanks, I just meant I was using standard pressure .38 special and they are modern, not older collectible or period correct type ammo.

There is no older specification for ammo for 38 Special. Any of it can be used in any revolver it fits. Generally if the revolver is more than a few years old then you would not want to abuse it by using some sort of modern hot rodded ammunition. You haven't.

[Model19man]

Originally Posted by glowe

Yes, the 38 Special is what the gun was designed to shoot. Originally, the Nineteenth Century 38 Long Colt was a heeled bullet and measured about .378"-.380". That was changed in the 1890s to a ,357", matching the 38 Special but still in the shorter case. Therefore, a Model 1899 could shoot either. There were some posts suggesting that the .380" bullet was still being used when the Model 1899 was introduced, but it was gone by the 1890s..

Mine is a Model 1901 Colt Army revolver. The barrel is .380 caliber, I have slugged it. For whatever reason the Army revolvers continued to be chambered for 38 Long Colt and the ammunition loaded for them continued to be made the same.

I certainly believed what you said before I slugged my barrel - it changed my mind.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by Model19man

Mine is a Model 1901 Colt Army revolver. The barrel is .380 caliber, I have slugged it. For whatever reason the Army revolvers continued to be chambered for 38 Long Colt and the ammunition loaded for them continued to be made the same.

I certainly believed what you said before I slugged my barrel - it changed my mind.

The Colt A&N Military revolvers in .38 LC that were made prior to 1903 did have the larger bore diameter. But beginning with the Colt Army Model 1903 .38 LC revolver, the bore diameter was reduced to use .357 diameter bullets. However the actual US Army military cartridge specification was for a hollow base .353" inside lubricated lead bullet from 1892 onward. It could expand under pressure for use in the earlier Colt revolvers having larger diameter barrels as well as the later Colt and S&W revolvers. Apparently all of S&W's K-frame .38 Special revolvers from the Model of 1899 onward were designed to use .357 bullets. Just a repetition to better clarify my earlier explanation. There is no reason to avoid firing any type of .38 LC factory ammunition in any .38 Special revolver. There are, or were, Cowboy .38 LC cartridge loadings once available, don't know the situation today.

The Colt .38 LC revolvers did see some military use during WWI, but largely limited to arming rear area and non- combat service personnel. As usual, after WWI, some of the old Colt .38 LC revolvers were passed down to State guard units in the 1920s. Some Army cavalry units continued to use the old Colt .38 LC revolvers to fire blanks for training cavalry horses until horses were phased out of cavalry use.

[erikpolcrack]

One of my old Colt Army/Navy revolvers - I think it's a Model 1901 - is nominally chambered for the Service Cartridge/38 Long Colt but will chamber any 38 Special cartridge as well as some .357 Magnum cartridges. For years I've been firing only 38 Special hollow-base wadcutters in it. The hollow base takes care of any oversize-bore considerations and the power-level/pressure is virtually identical to the old 38 Long Colt/Service Cartridge load. Have had great success with it and no apparent problems. My older Army/Navy revolvers do not get shot because I only have a few rounds of 38 Long Colt and do not want to bother reloading it or making brass for it. I know it is a standard warning, but caution must be observed to never fire regular 38 Special or 357 Magnum in any of these old Colts. Apparently, every once-in-a-while, one of the older 1890s-era Colt Army/Navy revolvers is found that will chamber the longer cartridges. They must never be fired with anything other than the 38 Long Colt/Service Cartridge.

[DWalt]

There have been stories related here expressing knowledge of instances in which .357 Magnum cartridges were fired in old Colt A&N .38 LC revolvers without damage. Given the safety factor built into revolver design, that may well be true. Even so, I would not ever do that. Not sure if I would be so concerned about using standard velocity .38 Special lead bullet cartridges. As I have no old Colt A&Ns, I won't be tempted to try. I always wanted one of those Colts chambered in .41 LC, but never ran across one in high condition at a price I would be willing to pay. Most .41 LC Colts I have seen looked like they had spent a few days being pulled down the highway behind a truck.

[glowe]

We are still talking about two different things. This thread remains a discussion about what the 38 US Service Cartridge was. Check out the link to a video below, and you will learn that the .357" Colt cartridge started in 1892, not 1903. Colt in its infinite wisdom still made revolvers in larger bores, but the bullets fired were .357" with a hollow base. The US Military demanded this in 1892, effectively ending the use of heeled bullets in the Army and Navy. So confusion remained for years about what to shoot in these old guns. The reality was that both calibers could be shot Colts, but not S&Ws. Both calibers were made into the Twentieth Century, but standard ammunition for the Military was only made in .357", which was called US SERVICE Cartridge by S&W.

S&W introduced their Model 1899 and it was bored for the .357" bullet, capable of shooting both 38 Special and 38 US Service Cartridge. The Service Cartridge was only loaded in .357" and it is thought that the name 38 Long Colt started at that time while the old 38 Colt cartridge became the 38 Short Colt. I am sure that some 38 Colt heeled bullets were shot in the Model 1899, but pressures would have had to go up since the Colt bullet was .02" too large. It is not known when the heeled bullet ultimately went away, but Colt changed their bore in the very early 1900s, eliminating the need for a hollow-based bullet.

Of particular interest is a segment starting at 7:43 into the video.

YouTube

[Model19man]

My Model 1901 Colt Army revolver is the same as every other Colt Army 38 revolver - 38 Special and 357 Magnum cartridges will fit the cylinder because the cylinder is bored straight through. One would be a special kind of stupid to fire either one in one of these.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by Model19man

My Model 1901 Colt Army revolver is the same as every other Colt Army 38 revolver - 38 Special and 357 Magnum cartridges will fit the cylinder because the cylinder is bored straight through. One would be a special kind of stupid to fire either one in one of these.

Late in production the Colt A&N revolvers became available chambered in both .32-20 and .38 Special, in addition to .38 LC and .41 LC.

[Model19man]

Originally Posted by DWalt

Late in production the Colt A&N revolvers became available chambered in both .32-20 and .38 Special, in addition to .38 LC and .41 LC.

I think you mean the Colt Army Special revolvers which were never issued to the Army, Navy or any other branch of service. We are not discussing those later revolvers here.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by Model19man

I think you mean the Colt Army Special revolvers which were never issued to the Army, Navy or any other branch of service. We are not discussing those later revolvers here.

You need to check your information more closely. I said the Colt A&N revolvers were later chambered in .32-20 and .38 Special and that is exactly what I meant.

[Model19man]

Originally Posted by DWalt

You need to check your information more closely. I said the Colt A&N revolvers were later chambered in .32-20 and .38 Special and that is exactly what I meant.

There was not ever any Colt A&N revolver after the first series. Perhaps you are confused.