Need help with mystery 44 special

SVT28 · #1 07-31-2017, 05:22 PM

Local ad was posted for the below pistol yesterday and took a chance and bought it for $450. I think I have something obscure, but I need the experts advice.

Serial 71377
5 screw
6.5in barrel
44 special
Shrouded ejector rod
Patridge front sight
Blued
Rear sight removed, drilled and tapped for the mount that came on it.
Stamp markings all over the place, including what looks to be a crown and number 30 on the butt.
Cylinder and barrel have the same number as the butt. Lanyard ring hole filled.
Grips fit great and are obviously not factory.
Timing, lockup, bore and chambers are all very good.

So I dove into the SCSW and I can't find this serial for an N frame at all. At first I got excited thinking I had a 3rd model of 1926 44 spl transitional target, but I think I am mistaken. I think the proof marks are British. Any help or insight is greatly appreciated. I bought this because of the mystery. The top two pics are how I got it, and the rest are post cleaning with removal of the grips and mount/scope. (Its a shame its drilled and tapped but oh well) Thanks in advance!

05CarbonDRZ · #2 07-31-2017, 05:36 PM

The Barrel has been changed to a pre model 24 Barrel,Notice how it doesn't match up at the top Strap.

deadin · #3 07-31-2017, 05:37 PM

Your pictures won't come up any larger than thumbnails so I can't see much detail.
I think what you have may be an assembled gun on a .455 2nd Model frame, added sights and a barrel & cylinder from something much newer.

Probably will be a good shooter as it looks like somebody spent some time on it.

(Just a guess until some better pictures are posted.

)

SVT28 · #4 07-31-2017, 05:45 PM

Photobucket is lame and I still haven't found a reliable hosting website to post pics yet. Here are some loaded through the forums. I also think its a Frankengun, off of a British proofed 455 2nd model frame that's been converted to 44 special.

Muley Gil · #5 07-31-2017, 05:47 PM

The above two posters have correctly IDed your revolver-a 2nd Model .455 frame with swapped in .44 Special barrel and cylinder. Should be a good shooter.

Can you post pictures of the top strap from above? BTW, the front sight is a Patridge, not partridge.

SVT28 · #6 07-31-2017, 05:48 PM

Next set of pics

SVT28 · #7 07-31-2017, 05:55 PM

Here's another round of pics

SVT28 · #8 07-31-2017, 05:57 PM

Final round of pics including topstrap

Muley Gil · #9 07-31-2017, 06:05 PM

I don't currently own a pre-war target revolver, but a pre-war target rear sight may fit.

05CarbonDRZ · #10 07-31-2017, 06:49 PM

It does look like a pre war rear Target sight would fit in there....The hard part is finding One!

THE PILGRIM · #11 07-31-2017, 07:24 PM

May look like this-

SVT28 · #12 07-31-2017, 07:27 PM

Right? I've been looking for pics of a 455 2nd model target variation and I've only found one, Doc44's 2nd model target in 45 colt. Almost all of the 2nd model 455s I've seen have fixed sights, so I'm curious to see how this one letters, if I choose to do so.

I also find it interesting that whoever did the conversion marked the barrel, cylinder and crane with the serial from the butt. Does anyone have pics of what a 2nd model target looks like and what sight I will need to make this a shooter without the scope?

SVT28

THE PILGRIM · #13 07-31-2017, 07:31 PM

2nd Target coming up-

SVT28 · #14 07-31-2017, 07:32 PM

Thanks Pilgrim! The 2 small screws in the rear, do those go into the top strap? If they do, I think the rear tap hole buggered the original holes up. Any advice on what to do from here other than put the scope back on it and shoot the heck out of it?

wheelgun610 · #15 07-31-2017, 07:51 PM

Considering the barrel swap, the frame might be milled for a post-war rear sight. Can't see the part of the frame that would answer that question.

Mark

THE PILGRIM · #16 07-31-2017, 07:58 PM

Agree with Wheelgun610.
You might want to try a Post War sight before you try to find a pre-war.
Pre War Sight - Not 100% sure, but think one screw screws in, the other doesn't.

SVT28 · #17 07-31-2017, 08:03 PM

Mark, what part of the frame can I take a picture of to help identify what rear sight is needed?

wheelgun610 · #18 07-31-2017, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVT28

Mark, what part of the frame can I take a picture of to help identify what rear sight is needed?

If you have a post-war target sighted gun, the easiest thing would to remove that rear sight and see how it's milled. There's a small notch cut in the rear of the frame - above the hammer opening for the elevation stud to fit into.

Or, a pic of the top rear of the frame would allow us to see how it's cut.

Mark

deadin · #19 07-31-2017, 08:32 PM

I would opine that it will be for a post war sight.
The .455 2nd's with British proofs didn't come with target sights. Seeing as how the barrel is post war, I would guess the sight probably the same.

(Of course this wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.....)

THE PILGRIM · #20 07-31-2017, 08:38 PM

Here's a Post War sight.
You would square up The elevation Stud - nut and insert it into the slot cut into the rear of the frame.
Then the front mounting screw will (hopefully) align with the threwed hole.

SVT28 · #21 07-31-2017, 08:50 PM

Here's a couple better looks of the rear sight cut and groove. Edit: It does not have the cut groove

flagman1776 · #22 07-31-2017, 09:07 PM

Is there a star & date stamp on the side of the frame under the grips. If so that would indicate factory service & the date of such.

wheelgun610 · #23 07-31-2017, 09:09 PM

Nope, definitely not cut for a post war sight. Did the scope bas fit into the groove on the top strap? It's possible it may not have been milled for a pre-war sight either.

rct269 · #24 07-31-2017, 09:34 PM

If you decide to go with a pre-war sight, the one pictured in Post #11 is the one you're after----the so-called "two screw" sight----came into being in the early '30's. Any/all previous renditions will "shoot loose". While that aggravation is manageable, it's more fun to spend your time shooting.

Note this sight will function properly only when it's adjusted/locked properly---and that doesn't work like one might think it does. Get the instructions---and follow them.

Ralph Tremaine

Kinman · #25 07-31-2017, 09:53 PM

I had acquired a 2nd model Hand Ejector a little while back that had received a set of target sights front and rear by the factory in '67. I looked it up in the past post area and the post was there without the help of photobucket. This piece has a '67 era rear sight installed and the only fly in the ointment was that when they drilled the forward most screw they actually went through the forcing cone, my genious gun mechanic fixed it up right as rain. It does fit well on the revolver and I am very happy with it. They are great shooters.

Kinman · #26 07-31-2017, 10:50 PM

Picture attempt of 2nd Model H.E. with late model sight installed.

Kinman · #27 07-31-2017, 10:51 PM

I'm not crazy about this method of posting pictures. I have an account with Imageshack but try as I do I cannot get it to work for me.

wheelgun610 · #28 08-01-2017, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinman

Picture attempt of 2nd Model H.E. with late model sight installed.

I'd assume yours has a slot milled for the tab on the elevation stud?

Mark

Wiregrassguy · #29 08-01-2017, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinman

I'm not crazy about this method of posting pictures. I have an account with Imageshack but try as I do I cannot get it to work for me.

If you are an SWCA member or forum contributor, you get albums hosted here. You upload your pictures to the albums and insert the BB code link into your posts like from Photobucket. The number of pictures per post is unlimited.

wheelgun610 · #30 08-01-2017, 01:41 PM

If you have a google account, you can also store photos there and link them to the forum - and it's free. And as far as I know, flickr.com allows free photo linking. At least they used to....

Mark

rburg · #31 08-01-2017, 03:35 PM

To try to enlarge upon RCTs post above, there were any number of prewar adjustable sights. I think there was an SWCA article that showed 7 different variations. Over the last 10 or 15 years I think I've found and bought a total of 1 prewar sight. Thats a lot of gunshows and a lot of looking with just a little joy.

I kind of don't understand the intent of putting it back to "original" since we've already determined its not possible. If you want a good shooter with less effort, you might start looking for a Millet or similar sight. At least it avoids trying to find the hens tooth.

Bakebfr480 · #32 08-01-2017, 03:50 PM

Frankengun............have you shot it yet?

Hondo44 · #33 08-01-2017, 06:02 PM

You have a "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 2nd Model". There are no original target models of this gun.

And not be confused with the "44 Spl Hand Ejector 2nd Model", which did have a target model.

The width of the slot in the top strap will determine with certainty whether it's cut for a pre war or post war rear target sight. Can you measure with a caliper and give us the dimension?

lebomm · #34 08-01-2017, 07:03 PM

No one has mentioned it, and maybe no one cares, but the C w/broad arrow mark below the thumb piece would indicate a revolver of Canadian origin.

Larry

SVT28 · #35 08-01-2017, 07:49 PM

Thanks everyone for your help. I did shoot in this afternoon and it was very accurate. The scope was a bit off due to reinstallation but a few adjustments resolved that. I shot mostly HSM cowboy lead round nose specials, and I did shoot some Fiocchi JHP/Blazer JHP as well. It will definitely be a good shooter.

I also decided not to try and hunt down a rear sight and enjoy it as is for a little while. Hoping to get it to the outdoor range for some steel plate action this weekend!

Hondo44 · #36 08-01-2017, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lebomm

No one has mentioned it, and maybe no one cares, but the C w/broad arrow mark below the thumb piece would indicate a revolver of Canadian origin.

Larry

Yes, a 3.A. version 455 likely part of the 14,500 Canadian military order shown below, but we do not know serial # range:

3. A.“.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. and 2. above, the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and the ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455, respectively.

The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17.

By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].

Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916.

The Canadian military also bought 14,500* .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].

And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].

*Canadian military shipments of 14,500:

-1500 Shipped after Aug. 1915
-850 Shipped thru December 24th, 1915
-150 Shipped thru March 31st, 1916
-6,000 Shipped thru July 22nd, 1916
-6000 Shipped February 10, 1917

Hondo44 · #37 08-01-2017, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVT28

Thanks everyone for your help. I did shoot in this afternoon and it was very accurate. The scope was a bit off due to reinstallation but a few adjustments resolved that. I shot mostly HSM cowboy lead round nose specials, and I did shoot some Fiocchi JHP/Blazer JHP as well. It will definitely be a good shooter.

I also decided not to try and hunt down a rear sight and enjoy it as is for a little while. Hoping to get it to the outdoor range for some steel plate action this weekend!

If the sight groove is .250" wide, it's milled for a pre war sight. If .280" wide, it's milled for a post war Smith factory Micro Click sight which are not that difficult to find.

You just need to find one for an N frame with front attachment screw hole in the same location as the filler screw hole in your top strap. And a tang length that reaches all the way to the rib on your post war barrel. The barrel will match in your frame.

Here's a "44 Spl 1950 Target Model" that your barrel and cyl came from with the Micro Click sight: