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Old 08-04-2017, 05:24 PM
rogerwilco1 rogerwilco1 is offline
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Default K22 prewar - worth it?

Buddy sent me this photo of a K22 he saw in a shop and wanted to know if I could give him some advice on what to pay assuming its in good shape, tight, etc. Only gave me the one photo, though, but can tell from ser # its prewar. Any thoughts? Not in my wheelhouse so I'm no help to him - but might want to get it if he doesn't if the price is right. My rough guess is $6-700 but please feel free to correct me. Thanks!
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Old 08-04-2017, 05:31 PM
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buy now, if the other side look that good and all the serial numbers match. good score
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Old 08-04-2017, 05:34 PM
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The grips are post WWII, so that will affect the price somewhat.
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Old 08-04-2017, 05:57 PM
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He said he thought they wanted 800 but might go lower. Said other side looked good (Why he didn't get a pic..) What is there to look out for with this? I know about my 17-3 but not this one. Thanks.
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Old 08-04-2017, 06:10 PM
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$800 would be okay if both sides are alike.
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Old 08-04-2017, 06:30 PM
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Looks like the SN is 676xxx which would date it around late 1939, a K-22 First Model. So what is the asking price on it?
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Old 08-04-2017, 06:38 PM
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He said asking was 800 but may be a bit less.
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Old 08-04-2017, 06:44 PM
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You just try to find me another nice K22 Outdoorsman selling for less than $800 today. Magna stocks were available by 1939 and if those were sanded and refinished, maybe the top got a little rounded in the process? Check the serial number stamped on the right stock. That era S&Ws would be stamped.
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Old 08-04-2017, 06:44 PM
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That's a BIN imo.
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Old 08-04-2017, 06:51 PM
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Thanks. It's not an Outdoorsman though, isn't that correct?
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Old 08-04-2017, 06:58 PM
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It was commonly called an Outdoorsman, but I am not sure that was the name the factory used. There was also a N-frame .38/44 Outdoorsman. I don't think the Magnas are original. Definitely a go-get-it at $800.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:00 PM
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It is the much sought after K-22 Outdoorsman, or K-22 Hand Ejector First Model. There were less than 20,000 made. Have your friend buy it for you.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:18 PM
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The company had no other name for this model. S&W advertising brochures of the time actually call it the "K-22" Outdoors-Man's revolver.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
It was commonly called an Outdoorsman, but I am not sure that was the name the factory used...
Well, the red picture box said K-22 'Outdoorsman's Revolver', so I'd say that was the name the factory used....

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Old 08-04-2017, 07:27 PM
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The stocks are post war. Look at the rounded border around the checkering. Pre-war stocks were pointed. That should knock a few $$$ off. Even so, $800 is a terrific price for that model.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:37 PM
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The price is good even with non correct stocks.
One thing I'd look closely at is the front sight.
By that I mean it appears to be a call silver bead and I can't quite tell if the bead is missing.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:46 PM
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Thanks for all the info. The reason I ask about the Outdoorsman issue is because the ones I've seen labeled as such are slightly different shape (larger area) behind the hammer area or was that just because of the grips? I'll have to check it out. Is there a reason it was labeled as "Target" model? Sorry for all the questions but I'm learning a lot.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerwilco1 View Post
Thanks for all the info. The reason I ask about the Outdoorsman issue is because the ones I've seen labeled as such are slightly different shape (larger area) behind the hammer area or was that just because of the grips? I'll have to check it out. Is there a reason it was labeled as "Target" model? Sorry for all the questions but I'm learning a lot.
The only reason that it was labeled "Target" is the presence of adjustable sights.No reason for the dealer to note that,as all Outdoorsman models had them.Don't assume that sellers fully understand what they're peddling.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:55 PM
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Target Model = Adjustable rear sight.
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Old 08-04-2017, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerwilco1 View Post
. . . I ask about the Outdoorsman issue is because the ones I've seen labeled as such are slightly different shape (larger area) behind the hammer area or was that just because of the grips . . .
Yes, the Magna stocks change the appearance of the revolver, but it is the exact shape and size as all the K frame revolvers. I notice that the company must have been very proud of the name Outdoors-Man's since they used it around 20 times in their ad.

I love the description: "As accurate as a watch - As sturdy as a tractor."
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Old 08-04-2017, 08:22 PM
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Looks like one of us will have to get this! So what do we want to check for besides the usual fit and finish? Will this have serial numbers in more than one place or just on the bottom of the grip frame? Anything on the crane/yoke? Obviously the grips won't have matching numbers. Thanks again.
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Old 08-04-2017, 08:36 PM
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It's only the one picture and hardly the way to judge, but since that's all I got,,I'd have to say based on that one picture I suspect it was refinished. Just going by the soft look of the edges, the way the light reflects off of them and the surfaces. Just not crisp and sharp surfaces like I'd expect.
The camera can mislead though,,that is for sure.

Better pic(s) can certainly change my opinion.

Don't know what it'd be worth if an excellent refinish.
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:14 PM
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Very nice pre war K-22 and well worth $800 IMO.

On a side note agree its a 1939 (ish) made gun due to lack of small S&W TM on left side which changed to a large right side TM around then.
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:32 PM
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Default adjusted pic

I've attached a better photo (adjusted exposure of his and output full size in Ps). Might be able to tell better.
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:33 PM
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Here's a nice 1939 vintage Outdoorsman to compare your's with. Stocks number to the gun.
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:41 PM
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Apparently it was K22 day for him. They had a 4 screw for 499 and another for 649. He just sent me pix. Looks like a target rich environment.
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:47 PM
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Here's what a pair of pre-war magnas should look like. (Note the curved line below the medallion.)
Another check is to pull the panels and look at the backing button. It should be a concave aluminum disk that looks like it was turned on a lathe.

Also, I don't know if it is a trick of the light, but the OP's grip looks like it is missing a big splinter from just behind the front strap...... (The side of the frame looks exposed..)

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Old 08-04-2017, 09:49 PM
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here it is.
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:27 PM
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Pull the the stocks off and make sure the pin that would be just in front of a set of service stocks on the right side (rebound spring retaining pin ? ) has not been buffed flat.
Sure sign of a refinish.
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Originally Posted by 2152hq View Post
It's only the one picture and hardly the way to judge, but since that's all I got,,I'd have to say based on that one picture I suspect it was refinished. Just going by the soft look of the edges, the way the light reflects off of them and the surfaces. Just not crisp and sharp surfaces like I'd expect.
The camera can mislead though,,that is for sure.

Better pic(s) can certainly change my opinion.

Don't know what it'd be worth if an excellent refinish.


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Old 08-05-2017, 12:27 PM
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Thanks for the advice. Planning to visit shop with him. Didn't understand which screw you meant in that photo but I'll take a look if they'll let me take the grips off.

Thoughts on the other K22s? Thought the 4 screw st $499 or lower could be a nice piece as well. Or maybe I'm just being greedy!
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Old 08-05-2017, 01:39 PM
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It's interesting that Gary's ("glowe") brochure says the cylinder is heat treated. (Post #13)

This from a March 1,1934 letter from D.B. Wesson, responding to a K-22 Outdoorsman customer's inquiries: "The steel that is used in the cylinder of the K-.22 is identical in formula with that used in the larger calibres, but it is not heat-treated after machining as the great thickness of the cylinder walls do not demand any further strengthening."

He goes on to say the steel "------as it comes from the mill shows a tensile strength in the neighborhood of 80,000 lbs., which does not make the additional strength gained by treating a necessity---------------."

As an aside, the treatment afforded that steel for use in larger "calibres" takes the "elastic limit" to 130,000 lbs.

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Old 08-05-2017, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerwilco1 View Post
Thanks for the advice. Planning to visit shop with him. Didn't understand which screw you meant in that photo but I'll take a look if they'll let me take the grips off.

Thoughts on the other K22s? Thought the 4 screw st $499 or lower could be a nice piece as well. Or maybe I'm just being greedy!


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Old 08-05-2017, 02:30 PM
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It's not a screw. It's a rounded end for the rebound slide stud.

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Old 08-05-2017, 02:47 PM
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It looks like its been re-finished.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:56 PM
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You mean in the circled image above, correct? And thanks!
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Old 08-05-2017, 03:06 PM
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Take a hard look at the fit of the side plate and the condition of the side plate screw holes. A large gap and dished holes are a sure sign of a re-finish.
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Old 08-05-2017, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
Take a hard look at the fit of the side plate and the condition of the side plate screw holes. A large gap and dished holes are a sure sign of a re-finish.
How 'bout we make that a large gap and dished holes are a sure sign of a LOUSY re-finish (those you can spot across a large room)---and then we could go on to say such sloppy workmanship is not likely to be seen on a factory refinish (I've never seen such.) nor on a Fords refinish (I've never seen such.).

Then we might suggest one should NEVER commission a refinish without seeing examples of the work---------up close and personal---as in: No surprises!

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Old 08-05-2017, 03:55 PM
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I wouldn't sell my 1948 s&w k22 masterpiece target 22lr 6" barrel in 99.99% with box and tools for no less than $1,200. They don't make them like these anymore.

I see these s&w and colt revolvers much higher for the past decade. I've seen colts as high as $1,700.

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Old 08-05-2017, 04:10 PM
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I found this one in Tulsa this spring 662000 serial number range shipped April 1937. Some wear on muzzle and some wear on high points of cylinder that appears to be holster wear. The gun letters with service grips these are correct but do not number to the gun.
Note the pin for the firing pin, hammer strut and rebound slide are very prominent indicating this gun has original finish.


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Old 08-05-2017, 07:07 PM
rogerwilco1 rogerwilco1 is offline
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Thanks for the correction about the pins. You guys are a real wealth of knowledge on this. And own some mighty impressive pieces as well. Shop wasn't open today. Have to go Tuesday. Looking forward to it. Whether it's this one or even the 4 screw I know I'm bringing one home for me.
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Old 08-06-2017, 01:36 PM
rogerwilco1 rogerwilco1 is offline
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So, just curious, given the three that they have at the shop (from what we can see in the pix) which would you get? I seem to vacillate between the $499 4screw and the $799 prewar based on the price/value. Your votes?
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Old 08-06-2017, 01:56 PM
paplinker paplinker is offline
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I think the Outdoorsman is going to hold value the best of the two. Most anyone is paying 799.00 all day for a decent one.

But if your going to shoot either very often i would keep in mind the rear sight picture is a bit smaller in the Outdoorsman so you should see what feels more comfortable to your eyes.

If the 4 screw is nice i would offer 1200.00 out the door for both guns. Then work out the details after taking them both to the range.
If you decided to sell one you really wouldn't be hurt price wise at all.
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Old 08-06-2017, 03:36 PM
rogerwilco1 rogerwilco1 is offline
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I'd love to do so but will probably be limited to just one from a $ point of view - also friend might want to get one. Like a lot of people, I'm looking for a shooter that will hold its value. Looks like both probably will?

Either way, I'll make sure we get a close look at it for possible refinish, although, from what I can see there's no evidence of those pins being flattened/sanded down.

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Old 08-06-2017, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerwilco1 View Post
I'd love to do so but will probably be limited to just one from a $ point of view -
Lay-a-way is your friend when dollars are limited. Never pass up a good deal. They don't come along that often these days. Just sayin'.
f.t.
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Old 08-06-2017, 04:57 PM
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You're right, tom, And about South Carolina, as well.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:11 PM
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"As an aside, the treatment afforded that steel for use in larger "calibres" takes the "elastic limit" to 130,000 lbs."

That's the first time I have seen anything regarding the tensile or yield strength of S&W's steels (but it's measured in psi, not pounds). There are alloy steels today that can be heat-treated to considerably greater yield strength than 130 Kpsi. There is a big difference between tensile strength and yield strength. For a K-frame .22 cylinder, there would be no structural reason to use steel of 80 Kpsi tensile strength.

Last edited by DWalt; 08-06-2017 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:45 PM
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My online dealer had 22lr revolvers probably a dozen or so. Ranging from $500 to $1,700. I watched them slowly disappear. Colts and S&W revolvers.

The h&r, iver Johnson, etc are decent revolvers too. There's one for every persons budget.

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Old 08-07-2017, 11:44 PM
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Going to try and get the Outdoorsman tomorrow. Wish me luck. If I do, I'll want to get some correct grips. looks like those are hard to find. Now to see how the recoil shield looks as well. i think from the pix I see that refinishing doesn't look like an issue but I'll check as well and report back with better pix!
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Old 08-08-2017, 08:37 AM
S&WsRsweet S&WsRsweet is offline
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Hey thanks for posting this and I hope you get the outdoorsnpman and give us a peport back with a range report to come . Thanks also to the guys who gave information this is like taking a mini course on how to spot a refinish job so kudos to everyone involved with ths thread .
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:01 PM
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Well ?

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