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Old 08-05-2017, 04:07 PM
Viking Grampa Viking Grampa is offline
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Default Pre-model 10

So I bought a gunbroker item that was listed as a model 15-3. What I received was a Pre model 10 serial number was S 9860**.
I am wondering on the value of the Pre Model 10. I'm not completely pissed and will probable keep it if the value is close to what I paid for it. For value purposes, Pre Model 10, 6 inch barrel, original diamond grips, slight wear in great working condition. Thanks for any help.

Last edited by Viking Grampa; 08-06-2017 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 08-05-2017, 04:49 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
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Originally Posted by Viking Grampa View Post
So I bought a gunbroker item that was listed as a model 15-3. What I received was a Pre model 10 serial number was S 9860**.
I am wondering on the value of the Pre Model 10. I'm not completely pissed and will probable keep it if the value is close to what I paid for it. For value purposes, Pre Model 10, 6 inch barrel, original diamond grips, slight wear in great working condition. Thanks for any help.
Sounds to me like somebody shipped the wrong gun! If they were specific enough to give the model # and variation, it would be reasonable to assume they knew what they had. Was there a picture in the ad that you were able to see? It would have had to be awfully cheap (read "salvage value") for me to be willing to buy it completely sight unseen. IMHO, a "pre Model 10" would have to be in excellent shape to approach the value of a modest condition (read "well worn") Model 15-3. As with all things, YMMV, but I would be in contact with the seller concerning adjustment or return. But.... it's your gun and your money so this is totally up to you.

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Old 08-05-2017, 04:59 PM
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OH MY! there are so many angels here, Im stepping back and watch the outcome.
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Old 08-05-2017, 05:39 PM
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A really nice M&P might be worth more than a shabby 15-3 beater. But we have no way to know the actual condition of either.
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Old 08-05-2017, 08:33 PM
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It's a closed auction, so here's my best guess:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/668375010

They also list it as being chambered in .38 S&W. From what I can see, that looks to be the stamp on the barrel.

[Tip for GB photos: Click on the pic to expand, then right click, then hit "open image in new tab" and you'll see the full size pic.]
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Old 08-05-2017, 09:16 PM
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If it's the one pictured then there are a couple of items of note. That is not a pre model 10, it is a post-war Military and Police. Not exactly the same thing.
Also, and I really don't want to sound mean, but the photo doesn't look anything like a S&W Model "X." It clearly predates the model numbers. I would put some of the responsibility on the buyer in this case, assuming the photos were available. Sure, the seller misrepresented the gun, but Caveat Emptor is a phrase that is old enough to still be spoken in Latin, so as consumers it is up to all of us to do our homework.

What if we flipped it around and you got a pristine Registered Magnum for the price of that post war M&P? We'd all be high-fiving and congratulating you.

Again, I am not trying to be nasty on this- chalk it up to a lesson learned.
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Old 08-05-2017, 09:26 PM
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You did just fine with the postwar "S" prefix. With a one line "Made in USA" it is definitely not a Model 15.
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Old 08-05-2017, 09:31 PM
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At that SN it would be a postwar M&P, probably made in late 1947 and shipped in early 1948, as supported by the hammer shape shown in the auction listing. It very well could be chambered in .38 S&W, as S&W made about 10,000 of those for export around that time period. It's difficult to believe that any dealer could describe it as a Model 15-3. HOWEVER, if it really is a postwar .38 S&W M&P, it would be quite a prize due to its rarity. I'd keep it, even though the grips may not be correct. You got a really good deal by mistake.

The big question: Is the barrel stamped "38 S&W CTG"? If so, get a letter to substantiate what it is.

Last edited by DWalt; 08-05-2017 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 08-05-2017, 09:50 PM
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How could anybody confuse a fixed sight anything with a pre or post model 15??
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Old 08-05-2017, 09:53 PM
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S&W model 15 = adjustable rear sight; Baughman quick draw front sight...

S&W .38 Military & Police - postwar = square notch rear sight; fixed round blade front sight.....

the picture in the gunbroker ad tells the true story.....
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
....
The big question: Is the barrel stamped "38 S&W CTG"? If so, get a letter to substantiate what it is.
The photo is too low resolution to be definite upon enlargement, but it appears to me that the recognizable CTG is placed about where it is on my ordinary .38 Spl. 6" S-prefix M&P, so I wouldn't bet any money on this being a rare .38 S&W. Especially considering how much else the seller screwed up on this listing.

Based on their website, West Coast Armory is a professional full-service gun business with multiple locations, indoor range and gunsmithing, and I am really at a loss how someone could bungle this auction posting so badly. Maybe a summer intern on legal pot?

PS: Just looking at the bid history, this was a 14-day auction with 18 bids total; I can pretty much guarantee you that the seller got multiple messages during that time pointing out the error of his ways, obviously without reaction; that is very odd.

Last edited by Absalom; 08-05-2017 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:39 PM
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Well let me tell ya a story. I bought a pre model 10 that the dealer had marked as a model 8. It was just the number stamped in the yoke but a five screw m&p 38 is what it was. I didnt argue with them because I knew whatI was looking at but not all dealers know what the older guns are. And no I didnt steal a bargain the price was fair. They just didnt research it well
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:40 PM
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Personally I would take that gun made in 1947- 1948 with love and care as opposed to 1 of many early 70's police carried model 15-3 or any 15-3 for that mtater unless brand new. I think you got a pretty good deal, especially if it turns out to be one of the rare ones. Take some pictures when you receive it and post on this site. These guys will be able to tell you everything about it.
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:51 PM
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I'm wondering if the grips are for an N frame. They are over hanging in the area of the front strap a lot.
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:56 PM
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I'm wondering if the grips are for an N frame. They are over hanging in the area of the front strap a lot.
I hadn't thought of that, but I can't really tell from the auction listing picture. For certain, they are not correct for the post-war M&Ps. If they are N-frame grips, so much the better.
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Old 08-05-2017, 11:37 PM
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Default Some answers and more questions

I am a beginner at buying and/or collecting S and W revolvers and don't have anywhere near the knowledge most on here seem to have. There were only 2 pics of the gun and I should have done some more research before bidding, with that said I also looked at the sellers rating's and number of transactions and the fact that it was a large firearms company and an FFL and was not that worried that about any issues, The posting referenced by codenamedave is the correct listing. The side of the Barrel is
" 38 S and W special CTG. On the very top of the barrel it say's
"Smith and Wesson Springfield Mass and a 2nd line has 3 patent dates. My question is still about value, did I get a fair value. My total was 483.20 with everything( gun,shipping and CC fee ). As stated before the gun has some wear but has aged well, Grips are in great shape, mechanical function is all perfect and the barrel is as well. Sooo, keep it at that price or pay to return it and get some money back, maybe, the listing said "As is, no returns or refunds"
As I stated before I'm a newbie at this and your opinion would be helpful, Thanks
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Old 08-05-2017, 11:55 PM
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I think the biggest question is going to be about the grips. N frame diamond magna can sell for up to $200 themselves. I did a completed auction search on gb for your gun (properly listed) looks like they have been selling for between $299 and $399.If the grips are valuable I think you may have a winner. All my guns from that period are some of the finest most accurate guns I own. More knowledgble people than myself will be along for their oppinions too.
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Old 08-06-2017, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
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...... The side of the Barrel is
" 38 S and W special CTG. On the very top of the barrel it say's
"Smith and Wesson Springfield Mass and a 2nd line has 3 patent dates. My question is still about value, did I get a fair value. My total was 483.20 with everything( gun,shipping and CC fee ). As stated before the gun has some wear but has aged well, Grips are in great shape, mechanical function is all perfect and the barrel is as well. Sooo, keep it at that price or pay to return it and get some money back, maybe, the listing said "As is, no returns or refunds"
As I stated before I'm a newbie at this and your opinion would be helpful, Thanks
No matter what the listing said, they send you a completely different gun from what they posted (regardless of the correct photos), so reversing the transaction and getting ALL your money back is a no-brainer if you choose to pursue that course. Anyone who would have bought the gun for function (carrying or target shooting) rather than collecting probably would have been on the phone with those guys yelling at them about deceptive advertising and fraud within a few minutes of laying eyes on the gun, and we wouldn't have this discussion.

As for collector's value, the price you paid for the gun in that condition is definitely high, although not outrageously so. I personally like the fixed-sight guns better, but realistically, a Model 15-3 in the same condition as that M&P would likely have a higher resale value.

Ultimately, you really can't nickel-and-dime this decision; you have to figure out whether you're happy enough with the gun to keep it or not, and we can't decide that for you.
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Old 08-06-2017, 01:08 AM
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I'm really sorry it was not one of those postwar .38 S&W M&Ps. I was hoping for you.

Pricewise, I'll agree with the above, and say that your all-in cost for the M&P is not outrageously out of line in some areas of the country. If the stocks are indeed for an N-frame, you did better, as N-frame Magnas do have considerable interest, and you could sell them and buy more correct K-frame grips and still have a good bit of change left over. At least you got a fairly cheap lesson on the value of knowing exactly what you are buying before you buy it.
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Old 08-06-2017, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
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I'm really sorry it was not one of those postwar .38 S&W M&Ps. I was hoping for you.

Pricewise, I'll agree with the above, and say that your all-in cost for the M&P is not outrageously out of line in some areas of the country. If the stocks are indeed for an N-frame, you did better, as N-frame Magnas do have considerable interest, and you could sell them and buy more correct K-frame grips and still have a good bit of change left over. At least you got a fairly cheap lesson on the value of knowing exactly what you are buying before you buy it.
How do I know if they are for an N-frame, They are a fraction to big and over hang front and back just a hair.
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Old 08-06-2017, 06:35 AM
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Is there a SN stamped on the inside of the right panel, and if so, what is it? Can you post pictures showing both panels, front and back? Even though similar, the N-frame grips re a little larger, and there are visual clues as to which size they will be.
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Old 08-06-2017, 07:22 AM
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How do I know if they are for an N-frame, They are a fraction to big and over hang front and back just a hair.
Nice revolver, you didn't get hurt a bit! I would have payed that in a minute.

They are not N-Frame stocks, just from a different gun of a few years later vintage. At this period, and into the 1970s, Stocks were hand fit to the specific frame they were fit to, hence the reason the SN was stamped on the inside of the right stock. If they were N-Frame stocks they would over-hang a lot, about 1/8", at the rear, not at the front. Contrary to what some believe the only difference in shape between N and K stocks is from the level of the screw hole up to the "knuckle" of the frame. The knuckle is the corner of the frame behind the hammer. The over-hang tapers from top to bottom, with the greatest over-hang being right at the knuckle.

A supposedly knowledgible LGS had one in almost identical condition they were asking $800 for! They had it for over 2 years too. If it had been $500 I would have bought it, but they wouldn't budge! But the stocks were at least correct vintage, probably numbered correctly too.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:52 AM
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Beautiful revolver, I would keep it (jmho)
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:05 AM
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I have a 5 screw, 6" M&P from '47, It is a regular with me at the range. Your price is a tad bit high for a face to face, but an online with shipping you did OK.
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Old 08-06-2017, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
Is there a SN stamped on the inside of the right panel, and if so, what is it? Can you post pictures showing both panels, front and back? Even though similar, the N-frame grips re a little larger, and there are visual clues as to which size they will be.
I won't be able to check till later, I'll let you know what I find. Thanks for your help!!
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Old 08-06-2017, 12:26 PM
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Nice revolver, you didn't get hurt a bit! I would have payed that in a minute.

They are not N-Frame stocks, just from a different gun of a few years later vintage. At this period, and into the 1970s, Stocks were hand fit to the specific frame they were fit to, hence the reason the SN was stamped on the inside of the right stock. If they were N-Frame stocks they would over-hang a lot, about 1/8", at the rear, not at the front. Contrary to what some believe the only difference in shape between N and K stocks is from the level of the screw hole up to the "knuckle" of the frame. The knuckle is the corner of the frame behind the hammer. The over-hang tapers from top to bottom, with the greatest over-hang being right at the knuckle.

A supposedly knowledgible LGS had one in almost identical condition they were asking $800 for! They had it for over 2 years too. If it had been $500 I would have bought it, but they wouldn't budge! But the stocks were at least correct vintage, probably numbered correctly too.
Thanks for all the info, what are the correct grips for this revolver.
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Old 08-06-2017, 12:31 PM
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Beautiful revolver, I would keep it (jmho)
I'm starting to like it. I like that it is so old and the craftsmanship is great. I think I'll probable hang on to it, returns are such a pain.
But I'm still going to raise a bit of a stink with the seller. Thanks !!
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Old 08-06-2017, 12:51 PM
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I've gotten a couple of guns off Gunbroker that were not the model in the description. The oddest one was listed as a Model 14-406 that was really a 2" M&P .38, 1947. I'm no genius, but even I recognized it from the picture. The seller listed the assembly number as the model number.
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Old 08-06-2017, 03:07 PM
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Well I for one am glad you have come to the conclusion that you did. If it were me I would do the same. There is a novelty to being able to adjust rear sights but once in position mine never move.It's just one more thing that can break if dropped or in my case the case got dropped and the force inside cracked rear blade sight on my 19-3. IThe craftsmanship back in the day was a few notches higher than now days and a notch higher than in the seventies. I think you will enjoy shooting your M&P 38 special just as much if not more than a model 15 and the value is still pretty close. As far as the grips not fitting perfect you can find a set of originals maybe on Ebay or if it was me I would go to Altamont grips.Com and for 50 to 80 dollars or so the have many beautiful choices I especially like target grips that wrap around front. Good luck to you and enjoy her!
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Old 08-06-2017, 04:47 PM
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i've got some good deals off of GB because dealers didn't know what they had
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:23 PM
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i've got some good deals off of GB because dealers didn't know what they had
I really don't think this has anything to do with "not knowing what they had"; this is simply bizarre. Looking through their various and extensive online offerings, this is not a pawnshop, but a professional and competent gun business that knows guns, and there is no reasonable explanation for the listing, down to a specific dash model number that apparently came out of nowhere, of the wrong gun.

If I were the OP, even if I decided to keep the gun, I'd be on the phone with the manager just trying to nail down what happened in any case. If there is an innocent explanation, they would want to know too.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:31 PM
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...photos of the revolver in question...



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Old 08-06-2017, 06:42 PM
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You did just fine. So,,keep it, shoot it.It will be very accurate.Also a great side arm when hunting.
It would be even better if the Auction Company sent you a check to cover the mistake they obviously made.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
I really don't think this has anything to do with "not knowing what they had"; this is simply bizarre. Looking through their various and extensive online offerings, this is not a pawnshop, but a professional and competent gun business that knows guns, and there is no reasonable explanation for the listing, down to a specific dash model number that apparently came out of nowhere, of the wrong gun.

If I were the OP, even if I decided to keep the gun, I'd be on the phone with the manager just trying to nail down what happened in any case. If there is an innocent explanation, they would want to know too.
That is exactly what I was thinking. They called it a 15-3 not a model 15.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:04 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is online now
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That is what happens when you are posting multiple listings and you " cut & paste ". That's all it is. You bought the gun that they intended to sell regardless of any written description.

Congrats on a nice M&P.

Best,
Charles
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Old 08-07-2017, 12:48 AM
Viking Grampa Viking Grampa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchuck View Post
You did just fine. So,,keep it, shoot it.It will be very accurate.Also a great side arm when hunting.
It would be even better if the Auction Company sent you a check to cover the mistake they obviously made.
I'm going to shoot it tomorrow and hope it's accurate, a check would be nice as well
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:26 PM
deyomatic deyomatic is offline
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Originally Posted by Viking Grampa View Post
I'm going to shoot it tomorrow and hope it's accurate, a check would be nice as well
Let us know how you do...at the range and at the bank. Good luck with both.
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Old 08-10-2017, 09:35 PM
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vrichard vrichard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking Grampa View Post
Thanks for all the info, what are the correct grips for this revolver.
Your grips should looke like these,# to the gun,this 5in.is just a little early
then your 6in.
Dick

Last edited by vrichard; 08-10-2017 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:04 PM
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Absalom Absalom is offline
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Originally Posted by Viking Grampa View Post
Thanks for all the info, what are the correct grips for this revolver.
And in case the stocks on your gun and the ones in Dick's photo above look very similar to you, you'd be correct, they are.

The key is the top or shoulder of the stocks. The rounded sloping style on yours was introduced in the early/mid-1950s. If you look closely at Dick's picture, you'll notice a distinct sharper edge, which is why we refer to these as "sharp-shouldered magnas".
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:33 PM
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If you like the pistol, I would keep it and enjoy shooting a very fine, good looking firearm. Even if you paid on the high side for it, in 10 or 20 years, you will realize what a bargain you got for a nice precision firearm.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:51 AM
bedbugbilly bedbugbilly is offline
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I have no dog in this fight, but to assume that a gun dealer "knows" what they actually have is a bad assumption. Yes they should, but I don't have enough fingers and toes to count up the times I have seen something "mis-identified" in the last 50 + years. Yep, a person needs to do their homework but sometimes, we all slip up and I know I have a number times. Sometimes it works out - sometimes not.

I don't say the above to be critical towards anyone. Personally, I think it's a good looking shooting iron and I wouldn't kick out of bed for eating crackers. Shoot it, enjoy it and unless it really is upsetting to you, moe on. Tomorrow is another day! ;-) Enjoy!
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:35 PM
gman51 gman51 is offline
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If it is an 15-3 wouldn't that model number be stamped on the frame at cylinder yoke crane rest ?
I would call the seller before shooting it.

Last edited by gman51; 08-13-2017 at 01:38 PM.
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